It also had alot to do with a 2l 16v engine producing 263bhp in a shoebox sized car lolQuote:
Originally Posted by CP
Damn fine car the R500
EDIT: Oi, relocating the battery makes perfect sence.
It also had alot to do with a 2l 16v engine producing 263bhp in a shoebox sized car lolQuote:
Originally Posted by CP
Damn fine car the R500
EDIT: Oi, relocating the battery makes perfect sence.
CP who even mentioned ballasts of "homo lead lumps to balance the car"
I'm not sure you're understanding some of the theory here. There are many things a serious driver's car should be implementing that aid handling ability whilst balancing corner weights.
To say a C20XE is without finesse amazes me - If you were to say a C20LET then i'ud be more inclined to agree with you because it's all torque in a narrower power band. People are still not understanding you don't want fcuk off amounts of torque in a light shell like a nova running 195 / 205 width rubber.
I take it when you say "no finesse" you mean not a nice free revving / responsive screamer like some of the tuned small blocks that are doing circuits now?
Fact is and Olly might agree with me is 200 horse power in a track prepared nova from the c20xe is "not a slow car" and owners feel is almost as fast as they dare. It is for this simple reason that next to no one goes all out on a C20XE build.
But understand this; there are people or person that have ~ they will rev high enough to give the response AND handling refinement that you might think only belong to the small block owners.
The main difference being 220BHP verses over 300. Nothing will make a bigger effect on overall lap times than that gulf in power.
…It belongs in a museum already and next to nobody's seen it even move under it's own steam.
I've thought it many times, but never said it, BRoadGhost, You are a cock!Quote:
Originally Posted by BRoadGhost
What YOU fail to understand is that everyone taking part in this discussion knows each other personally and we all respect each other and the cars involved. This is light hearted friendly banter and the big block/small block debate has kept us amused for years!
Read CP's post again, with it in mind that Trackdaynova, Dar, Lee and CP know eachother and that CP might be executing some humour.......and that CP is approaching 90 years old and has a fair bit of knowledge and first hand experience himself.
+rep for that one mark
/me makes screen print of mark speaking his mind :eek: lol lol
I will just add this...
I'm only adding this as myself and lee were just talking about this last night and i know he agrees, his 200bhp xe is set up very well except for a diff, he is also a bloody good driver who knows combe like the creases in his pants. Yet with just simple set up differences and a smallblock, in my old car he matched his fastest lap. Nothing special you may say until the fact that in mine he was over 60bhp down and a good dose of torque, and he had never driven my car before. He managed this feat within his first 15 laps. Thats the difference between power and setup, compared by the same driver all be it less experienced in the least powerful car.Quote:
The main difference being 220BHP verses over 300. Nothing will make a bigger effect on overall lap times than that gulf in power.
This could go round and round all day, but at the end of it setup and selective methods can equal brute power with relative ease.
Ah but in the R500 the driver is relocated to the boot lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Well Olly I learnt a loong time ago you are always a lot faster if your car is safely in bits in the workshop:D Plus I've got my own competition on the go with rick draper to see how much we can spend on ridiculously expensive parts for our Novas that makes no financial sense at all:roll: . Anyway I'll prolly get it done at christmas and then break it just before I'm due to go out on track:eek: lolQuote:
Originally Posted by trackdaynova
To be fair we have in the past driven most of the circuits in country and were out there on our own on track before it became as fashionable as it is with everyone nowadays.
According to the Chinese calendar, 2009 is the year of the Small Block ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by craig green
All in good time Mr H ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdaynova
:thumb: Mines ballistik :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CP
Seriously yours is going to be such a great car, it won't be fair you beating the big blocks:cry: You just keep it in bits in that workshop of yours:thumb:
Why isnt there a Small Block Inside sticker? :P
Well well Ive just had some fun reading all that, i love the big Vs small block banter it's just ace!
Right first off i will through in my own thoughts on things...
Baxter if you want a nice easy swap with good power gains then do the C20XE, i had this dilemma years back with my old car, I'm sure there's a post about it back then, so i set about asking the longest running members of (old) PNG and NovaLoad, such as Jim,CP,Dan,Karl Rowntree Andy Bishop,on this topic and there opinions
A) Keep my 1600 8v and tune it using T40/cam set up,or turbo possibly?
B) C20XE it...blah blah blah!
They also came back with all these pro's and cons for both options,EG how easy is it to swap the engine, against how much money it coast to tune a less powered one etc..
Then some one also mentioned the fact that the old 20NE, or 20SEH 2.0 8v engine's might be worth thinking about, but i opted for the C20XE in the end.
So the car got the engine and i had some Koni adjustable's(they were shocking) with 1600 springs, when i first drove the car i was shocked how heavy the front end felt, it was no long my same little nova,it was a totally different car all together lol
So over time i realized i needed to sort the suspension as there was way to much understeer, this was when i bought your old Spax coilovers, i had a track day booked at donny so i fitted the rears as i didn't have time to do the fronts,and i could feel the benefits on the rear,but yet still the front was sliding into the bends full of understeer! the front were added but not kept for long.
So when i has some money i popped to Dave Marshalls and bought his old Avo coilovers of him,and his SBD TB set up (first met Lee at Dave's) and this totally changed the car again into something els, i then added the solid top mounts to them,and again saw the added turn in they gave to the cars characteristics.
So i did all these step one at a time,OK it was money down the drain each time i was replacing items, but i learned how they changed the car as i went etc.. Hench how i know what i was going to do on my present car as id already lent from my previous experience's..
Anyway back to the topic...lol
I've already said if you want the quick fix, go XE, or if your happy to be patient and spend some time getting an engine to where you want it then use Adams........
OR there is this option to, you could find a nice old 20NE, 20SEH and custom construct a Turbo conversion on it, as i think not only would you benefit from the less weight,but there is also more standard form power then a pre turbo'd 1600 8v, i know that 1600 8v's can be super fast car's, i passengerd in Dan's and i was smiling for ages, my mate Mike's turbo one is way more powerful then my XE (although less control,due to turbo lag) And then there is Oli Dankers, and CP's there amazing small block cars, it's all about time,money,set up's and trial and error etc.
What ever you choose mate, good luck to you:thumb:
Scott
Cause those stickers are ghey and so 2003 :pQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveyLC
+1 rep for Scott. Good post.
This is exactly the point that I think gets overlooked when, as we see in most posts about big vs small block, everyone piles in with the "Yay big blocks rool" attitude but I'm not sure many have actually driven a well sorted small block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan
Dans grey small block car was a good example. I've driven that car on road and track and so have others and we all agreed it was damn fine handling car that was a lot quicker than its tech spec headline figures suggested at first glance.
In fact I would go further and say its about the best car for its type I've ever driven on the road and is just as good on track as drive there trackday weapon. And the reason was the handling - it was totally predictable and biddable and beautifully balanced. There are no nasty suprises and the net result was it gave you confidence to push it and find the limit. I think that the ability of a car to give this kind of confidence to us rank amateur drivers is worth a helluva lot of time on track especially on a tight circuit like Cadwell.
I reckon that in a sort of endurance based race between a few of the decent big block and small block cars with teams of 3 drivers each it would be a pretty even match and it wouldn't suprise me if a small block like dans grey one ended up right near the top of the mix.
Oh yeah Dan why DID you get rid of that car?lol
And why didn't I buy it:roll: lol
I agree CP, that old car of Dan surprised me no end, i was actually twitching as he pushed it the car faster,and faster round this roundabout,and I'm thinking OK,he's going to fast :eek: and he kept pushing and the car just kept gripping and revving it's little balls off!!
I think i was actually laughing but you couldn't hear me:D lol
Scott
You're just jealous that you can't actually add any weight to the chassis without fearing a complete stall on anything more than a 10% gradient!Quote:
Originally Posted by CP
I bet your rollcage is hollow as well!! My rear strut brace is a solid bar of depleated uranium, because I are a MAN!
And can we stop complementing Dan now please, the only reason I matched my best time in his car was because my car is sh*te lol lol
All joking aside though, im hoping that his new car will proove beyond any reasonable doubt that you CAN make a 2.0 handle brilliantly without adding a massive load of adjustability and ballast lol
And the irony is that it's Dan, godfather of the smallblock, and that makes that prospect all the more sweet for me! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
lol lol yes it shall be a nice to see what the out come is with Dan next one.
You mean Gorilla of the smallblock? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Lee, I know your a closet small block really ;) lol
When I got out of Dans car at combe, i was shaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
They like to think it was from the adrenaline, but it was actually my inner rage that i had to admit it was good! :wtf:
GGGGGGAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY lol lol lol lolQuote:
And the irony that it is Dan, godfather of the smallblock, and that makes that prospect all the more sweet for me! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The new one WILL pass any barriers the old one had as regards handling, the more bits i slowly recieve the more my plan appears to be coming together. Lets remember i am of limited knowledge like every other man on this site, and as the select few know i have run my odd theories past you with some great feedback for further improvement, there are a few silly issues that may get changed but thats to be decided after its shakedown. Yes there will also be some changes against my better judgement that will make the childish few (you know who you are :p lol) run around with joy and fingers in the air lol
Only time will tell, but the dumb luck in this one is strong mmmmmmmmmmmm
+1 rep ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
The weight difference between the 16v and the 8v is negligible.. but as you say the 8v has a lower C/R and better suited to forced induction (in standard form) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by scott.parker
I think when someone builds a Z18 engined Nova there will be some gobsmacked people :thumb:
Where is the Z18 engine from?
Already been done pal, Mr Lee Hearsey has had his going for ages, TB's and all. There is a thread on MIG, his username is Lee303 (on here as well occasionally)Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyLC
And I agree, looking at the ports on the head alone when he started the project showed the potential. They are massive!
Does his car run? I've seen his posts and pics of the build but wasnt sure if it was a finished project?
Late 1.8 Corsa/Astra/Vectra/ZafiraQuote:
Originally Posted by Jim
Given all the hassle that Lee had, would it not be easier to stick a Nova shell on a Corsa chassis? lol.
lol, most probably.
unless he had another massive fail, last thing i read was that he'd had it mapped. ive not been on MIG for ages thoguh so im not 100%. I tend to lose contact with him out of season lol
The Z18XE goes in on standard nova mounts and mates up to the standard F10/F13 box.. Its a stupidly simple on a Corsa B dont see how it can be much harder on the Nova?
Oh Ive got an idea! Could just keep the engine in the Corsa SRi and try enjoying that? lol
No I'm sure it's a good engine and dose work very well in a nova too,but it's unfamiliar territory for some who's looking for easy power and a straight swap.
Scott
Yes, but to avoid a complete ballache, you need to run aftermarket management, and you also need to do something about the flybywire throttle.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyLC
At the moment, while there are still LETS and XE's availiable, its still not cost effective to go for the Z18, no matter how good it is, although on the flipside, finding LETS and XE's that dont need a full rebuild is getting harder, which does offset the cost.
Meh in short, what i said :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Management is a piece of piss.. And the Fly-by-wire throttle isnt part of the pedal box so easy to retrofit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I take it you have done this conversion?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyLC
Im afraid that some people struggle with the 4 wires needed to connect an XE. Thats fair enough, not everyone knows their way around wires.
But im lead to believe the ecu on the Z18 takes readings from other parts of the car amalagamated into the vehicles main loom?
Might be easy for some, but im pretty confidednt for most (including myself) it would be a ballache.
Z18 uses simtec90.. It doesnt rely on a body control module.
Basically there are only a few wires that you need to mess about with, power, earth, ignition, diagnostic pin, transponder (2 wires), coolant temp, revs, and the 6 wires for the fly-by-wire throttle..
Brake switch and speedo feed are optional although a speedo feed should be used as the ECU behaves differently when the car is actually moving.
I've retro fitted engines with Motronic 1.5.5 (Z20LET), Simtec70 and Simte90 ECU's.. all are pretty simple when you narrow it down to the basic wiring components.
Thanks for prooving me right. That looks like a ballache lolQuote:
Originally Posted by DaveyLC
Fair play though, you obviously know your onions.
Just have to get over your fear or wires :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I dont have a fear of wires, i could probably work through it with enough time and the right diagrams lol My original point though was that its still not a cost effective option for the average nova owner who is after budget performance, and an easy install. I can happily get 200bhp from my old decrepid 2.0 16v, and I can chuck one of those into a Nova in 1 day, so im not going to fork out 100's for a Z18 and then fry my brain looking at wiring diagrams.
You may think its easy, but a rocket scientist would think its easy plotting a course to Mars. If you or I were to do it, whatever was launched would probably crash horribly into the Moon lol
I NEVER disputed how good the engine is though. Its a proper belter :)
EDIT actually, its technically a smallblock, so it sucks the fat one!!!!!!
Z18 Engine, loom + ECU will set you back about £300-350..
You dont need to invest in engine mounts, drive shafts, hubs, **** around with gear selector mechanisms etc.. The only real 'hardcore' mechanical job is to fab the down pipe and make up some hoses for the heater matrix.
Surely the costs are relatively the same if people are doing the Redtop conversion and doing it properly?
Even a driving retard like myself could pedel Dans old car(s) round the roads/track with reasonable ease :)
And Jims wasnt too shabby either :D
I might have to slip Dar a few bottles of iffy apple juice to blag a pilot of his, and of course just nick Lee's while hes not looking as I miss ranting that engine lol
lol at that :thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
i wouldn't mind one, if or when the xe give's up the ghost in the xe..
but knowing me, would probably just bang another xe in it