Block looks great with all the new plugs and oil screws.
Printable View
Block looks great with all the new plugs and oil screws.
Yeah it does look pretty good, all the oil ways have been scrubbed and cleaned out, with new plugs. Darren has really gone to town on it!!
He enjoys working on the XE, he thinks they look good when all built up and shiney.
Need to get my throttle bodies down to them to check they match the head and adjust them accordingly.
Yes yes and yes.
Have you considered methanol injection? I hear it can be quite effective on high comp n/a aswell, not juat turbos. It will allow you to advance the timing a nice amount amd would probably gain you the extra power you would get from reving it to 9.
I haven't looked at that Rob, I'll be honest I'm not chasing a massive power figure, I'll just be happy with solid reliable power. 230bhp & 180ft/lb everyday of the week will make me very happy.
If this isn't 400bhp N/A then this thread might as well be closed and/or deleted to not waste any more time. What's wrong with 8k and 230bhp!!!
Block looks tasty theyre going to do a great job of building it up. Do you get it run in or is that up to you?
230brake in a nova on itb's will be epic, I don't think anyone is doubting that lol. All I was saying is he could make a bit more power with methanol and not have to rev it any further than 8.
It'll be going to Track and road to be run in, the I'll literally check it fires at home for 5 seconds then it'll be onto the trailer and up to them to be run in, this way they can make sure the fuelling is 100% correct for the engine, the first 20 mins of running will dictate what sort of engine it will be and how long it'll last, the Track and Road guys know how to run an engine in, they'll do some low rev cells to allow us to bed the rings, all the very low rev low load stuff then just a gentle running in period, maybe an hour or so, then some higher rev stuff and more running in, then oil change and some power mapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
We expect this to take all day, the above is only my understanding, Steve and Jim will be in charge, with some input from Modus I don't want to take it away on a part map as I did this before with my old engine back in 2003 and found it nearly impossible not to kick the ass out of it!! Better that it's done on the rollers under strict supervision with someone else's right foot!!!
Rob, I don't know how to double quote!!! haha We're all in agreement that 8k is more than enough. I guess if we find that at 8250 the power is still rising then it'll be an excuse to have it all apart next winter and do the dry sump and electric water pump and all the other mad things that will allow it to go mental!! (oooooo steel crank)
My brother played around with methanol on his Saxo but couldn't get it right, can't remember why!! haha
Win.
I'm excited for you.
I'm as excited as a virgin with a fit date for prom!!!
Looking good! Exciting times.
You don't cockblock Mclovin
No-one cock blocks Mclovin!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BRoadGhost
Quick engine update, no pics as I'm waiting on the progress photos from the boys.
Essentially it appears that someone (I can't even write the C units name) decided that +1mm inlet valves could just be fitted into standard valve seats and that +1mm exhaust valves should have seats cut so deep that they were recessed so deeply into the head we barely needed a shim on the bucket.
The bottom line is, we need to replace all 16 valve seats and re-cut all the valve seats and re-lap all the valves, then we need to blend the throats into the new valve seats. It's a lot of extra work but we have a solution and we're now working towards it, with any luck by the time I'm back from India 21st December we should have something that looks like an engine!!
I better get my ass in gear and get the rest of the car ready!!!
Edit to add I've just been told by Steveslim that the exhaust will work with +1 valves on standard seats, so I retract my previous statement regarding the exhaust seats.
Had a chat with a local motor rebuild specialist recently. He made an interesting statement regarding bedding in piston rings. Read on.Quote:
Originally Posted by House1983
Harley-Davidson occasionally tests a freshly build motorbike (every one hundreth or so) by thrashing the nuts off it from the very first second. This in order to check performance figures and such. These particular bikes are sold on the the buying public, along with their non-thrashed bikes. Allegedly the bikes that have had their necks wringed, NEVER return for oil consumption or performance warranty claims. The theory behind this is that piston rings bed in (and subsequently seal) best when they are given a good kicking right after fitment. This essentially throws all running-in advice out the window.
Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Bedding in rings is a massive debate and subject on it's own. I never found two bits of advice the same when I was looking into it. At least giving it to someone else gives you some more confidence.
I've been researching this very thing and having read Lee303's build thread on Mig as well as others who seem to have used the hard is best from the off method.
I've discussed it briefly with Modus as to their thoughts and also Jim at Track and Road, my worry would be making sure the fuelling is correct as the very worst thing would be to run it in hard on a map that isn't correct.
The thought process is that the "gentle" no loading method was used because the machining tolerances weren't as good as they are now.
The "hard" process is meant to force the rings against the cylinder walls and therefore create a better seal as the rings are forced to mate to the cylinder wall instead of gently polishing the walls as it may do when gently running in.
As above it's not that easy to run an engine hard when you don't have the correct fuelling, I guess we could richen the mixture up across the whole map, run it hard, then make some adjustments to get it closer fueling for the 10-15 hard runs needed to bed the rings.
Like I say Track and Road map new engines everyday of the week, I'm certain they'll know the very best way to do it.
Gutting on the Valves!
Running in is a 2sided camp i found.
The valve seats are in a long list of little things in this engine that just didn't make sense.
Despite no-one having heard of different Coscast castings, we have a Coscast head that has smaller throats than a GM head and another Coscast head that we measured it against. This is really strange, QED haven't heard of different Coscast castings but Jay said there is a suffix after the part number, very strange.
It seems that we should in-fact have +1 inlet valve seats that should then have had the throats opened up to match the bigger valve seats, then lapped in, this will lower the size of the shim needed on the inlet side, solving the question as to why the inlet valve clearance was so big.
What gets me is that the valves were all lapped in, meaning that "someone" thought the seats were ok and usable as they are, which they definitely are not, guess it's the same drill with the unpolished crank and no valve spring seats, more top quality engine building from you know who and I don't mean Lord Voldemort!!!
Just had a long conversation with Jay regarding running in, some very insightful things!!
This chat was on the phone whilst I was on the train, so I may have missed some of the very technical parts of the conversation but the general jist of it all is summarised below.
So, it's very important to remember that the running in period has absolutely nothing to do with wearing in main or big end bearing shells, as there should never be contact between those surfaces, so therefore there is nothing to "run in".
There is a small amount of running in for cams and cam "bearings" but the majority of the running in procedure is focused towards making sure the rings "seal" to the bores correctly and in such a way that they will give a long career of good piston ringyness.
Running in also depends on how the engine has been honed, Modus use a cork fine honer as the final stages of honing (Jay said come Jap manufacturers use a very fine stone, the end result is the same), my understanding of this is, when a block is fine honed, the bores are left with tiny "peaks and troughs" hence the criss cross you can see, the cork honer effectively blunts the peaks off the peaks, it is then easier for the piston rings to "wear" into those peaks during running in. If the peaks are not "blunted" then the peaks themselves will actually either cut into the piston rings or the peaks will literally "bend" over and in doing so fill the troughs. This has 2 effects, it reduces the amount of oil that the bores can retain for lubrication and also can cause excessive piston ring wear due the lack of lubrication and the sharpness of the peaks.
All running types of running in will "seal" the rings to the bore, it's simply a question of how long that "seal" will last.
Jay said that neither an overly gentle run in or an excessively hard run in are correct, it's essential the engine is run with a minimal amount of load as possible and a varying degree of revs and a lot of coasting to create negative pressure below the piston, constant revs for extended periods are also not advised accelerating on 3/4 throttle up through the revs with load isn't advised.
Jay said one of the most important things is oil, fully synthetic oil is a massive no no, it's simply too good at lubricating, it doesn't allow the rings to "grip" the bores and help with the blunting of the "peaks and troughs". The best oil to use is a mineral oil with added zinc to help the process he did explain this bit but I may have been in a tunnel at the time!!
If possible dyno running in is preferred as the load can be specifically controlled and changed to suit the revs that the engine is running at, Connaught a big player in the Ford engine world down this way run all their engines in on the engine dyno, they run in with light loads over the entire rev range for approximately an hour, then drop the mineral oil add new mineral oil and power map the engine, then drop the oil and onto the preferred engine oil job done.
Running in seems to be divided into two camps, one that wants to drive gently for 500 miles on the road with no revs and no real loading and one that want to give it a hard time the minute it's out the box. It seems that, assuming the honing has been carried out correctly, the answer is somewhere in the middle.
I'm happy that Track and Road will be able to map the car, hold any desired rev, with zero load (except transmission loads) if required or whatever load deemed appropriate and set the fuel safely to allow that running in to be safe.
No doubt this post will be rubbished by some pretty quickly and Modus branded idiots that don't know what they're doing and shouldn't be allowed to build performance engines but having seen some of the engines these guys have built that the owners have done exactly what Modus have advised I know where my money will be.
I also apologise if some of the terminology isn't 100% accurate.
One thing I'm sure of running in with no load at all is no good , you do need to get the piston rings to get pushed toward the cilinderwall.
The part about bending the peaks I find hard to believe, they wear off and grind the rings to a better seal I've been told and read in the past.
There was once a test from Yamaha I believe that compared two bikes , one easy on the throttle the other warm up and 3/4 open cool down
Warm up again 100%. resulted in better performance and less oil consumpion.
In my own experiance 10W40 good quality does the job no need for expensive high grade oils and lost of marketing to pay for.
I won't say these higer grade don't do the job but I've never had a single problem with my 10W40 oils in the 14 years of competition experiance.
I did few revs / load for first 100 odd miles increasing to a limit of 6,000rpm at 500 miles followed by oil change. After that it's seen more load & rpm, but not upto redline on the road. Just keep changing the oil to begin with once it goes black circa 3k miles & you wont go far wrong.
Other thing to check in my experience is cam belt after 500 miles as it tends to slacken off slightly.
You're right running in with zero load, is not correct, I've just re-read and it needs editing to say "it is essential the engine is run in with the minimal amount of load needed to ensure the rings "seal" correctly" I haven't worded that bit very well!!! The meaning I'm trying to get at is too much load is bad!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillclimber16v
Bending the peaks is the term Jay used, I wasn't in a tunnel when he said that bit!! I guess on a microscopic level the peaks are flatted over into the troughs, that's the point that was trying to be conveyed.
I'm cool with 10/40 mate, I actually use 10/60 now for trackdays, the running in oil Jay speaks of isn't expensive, it's just a mineral oil with a zinc additive (I imagine there are other special things added into it aswell to aid running in) I wont be paying top dollar for it, I imagine I'll get 15 litres as a little present from the guys!!
All my running in will be done on the rolling road by Track and Road, I've previously discussed it with them and they have their own way of running in that is not dissimilar to the one Jay spoke of on the phone, essentially, mapping the car low down with light loads, all over the rev range up to 5k ish, then oil change and power mapping.Quote:
Originally Posted by BRoadGhost
Then run the car and come back after 1500 miles for any map tweaks.
Lots in interesting insights with regards to running in. One matter everyone seems to agree on is running in with minimal to zero load is a bad idea.
The fine honing is also known as "plateau honing" which makes for shorter running in/bedding in time.
Speaking of honing: from a reliable source I was told the Japanese bore and hone a block in a matter of seconds. This makes for rather unround (for lack of a better word) bores which makes you wonder why their engines last as long as they do. Proper boring and honing (and fine honing) takes a hours rather than seconds.
Jay said the Japanese do some funky things when it comes to boring and honing but it seems to work for them!!!
Got a few things done,
Car has been completely stripped from the steering wheel forward, got the upper firewall cut out.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...E8FBB8FD7D.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...A21A2A148E.jpg
Found a little hole under the battery clamp, cut that out and did some CAD to get a little repair in there.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...D70962E79F.jpg
Then set about filling the un needed holes in the firewall itself, bit of weldy weldy and grindy grindy, also filled a few screw hole that were about and removed the metal tabs for the fuel and brake pipes that are no longer needed.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...CEA9E786AE.jpg
Got the wire brush out on the drill and attacked the hammerite, I've ordered a little sand blaster for the air line that I think will take off the rest as it's not stuck very well, got a guy that's prepared to spray the bay and inside cheap enough so just getting it prepped for him is the main goal. He said to Etch prime any bare metal areas as he can deal with it easier than he can deal with hammerite!!
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...92B80AFBB8.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...C9DC7E8B48.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...DE499BFE75.jpg
Busy as for the next 5 weeks so don't expect a huge amount of progress, have got some Schultz to re-underseal the rear once the front is finished I can jack up the rear and remove the beam and attack it under there, I know it's solid so just needs wire brushing and re-coating.
Then I need to move the passenger seat, make a mount up for the tank on the floor where the rear bench used to sit and get the battery into the passenger footwell behind a footrest that i've already got.
Started the new dash aswell.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...42C93DDAA9.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...6463E78883.jpg
That's about it really!!
Also been playing with some big boys toys this week in London right opposite the O2 arena.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...185AC3C6C9.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...79B645AA9F.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...5AF29448B7.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ABAE14DDD2.jpg
18 Metre to the top floor, not the biggest we've done but the first needing a tower crane for installation, was good fun in gusting 45mph winds
Like the bay welding wish I'd done similar plating mine over. Not as much hammerite as I thought. Going to look 100% better in the bay after all this.
It's not the prettiest but it's a track car not a show car!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Have you ever thought about racing this car?
http://www.trackattackraceclub.com/p...p?season_id=36
Nice work on the shell there, I wish I'd remembered to keep the wiper motor mount when I chopped all mine out! Going to be fun when it comes to mounting it now lol
Looking good dude, nice welding too.
No speedo cable? Going posh clocks?
I haven't got the balls for racing mate!! Or the time, or the money, I'm having to scale back stuff I'm doing as it is due to our adoption. I couldn't commit to racing properly and if I can't commit properly then there's no point!! Plus adhering to blue book specs is a lot of work!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 8valve-craig
Maybe ;)lol;)lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Benn
All will be revealed shortly!! Well maybe not shortly as I'm flat out with work but it'll be revealed in good time!! haha
Thanks mate, it's all taken a back seat at the minute but it'll be done for the start of March!!Quote:
Originally Posted by josh-sri
As for the wiper, I've not seen enough "easily" converted single wipers to go for it!! I'm going to weld a thin strip down the edge to give it some strength, should make it strong enough. Due to the new dash setup I'll only have slow speed function anyway so it'll never be flat out!!
Cool, if you change your mind your car is perfect for the series. Ignore most of the blue book, it's only the safety bit that you really need to read.
Re wiper, Fiat Uno one is perfect.
Thanks mate!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 8valve-craig
As for the wiper, it still looks like a lot of hassle!! haha
I used the Uno one. Fit's the better out of them all. But i was never happy with it.
Ah a mine after my own heart....:thumb:Quote:
It's not the prettiest but it's a track car not a show car!!
I've just posted a pic of my installation using the standard Nova wiper mount as a base, going single wiper but want to find a right hand park wiper arm, anyone else done that?Quote:
As for the wiper, I've not seen enough "easily" converted single wipers to go for it!! I'm going to weld a thin strip down the edge to give it some strength, should make it strong enough. Due to the new dash setup I'll only have slow speed function anyway so it'll never be flat out!!
Thanks Mr Tall sir, I've had a look and am impressed, I'm sticking with the original position I think, I've got so much else to do!!!!
Your dash is quite simply put the fookin nuts!!!! I will be trying something similar, I'm using switches for headlights, dipped and main, indicators, single speed wiper, as basic as I can make it!! Trying to make it a real track car!!! haha
Mr Tall, you live in Southampton yet i've never seen or heard of you... How is that even possible?