fuelpump/ecu power issues

[djshaggeh]

Right i have bought a new fuel pump and mounted that.
The car was a carb model before so I have connected the large red/blue wire to the positive on the fuel pump and got a good earth.

We turned it over but it wont fire, there is no fuel being pumped down the lines. We checked the earth and that was fine but we dont seem to be getting power. We then worked back up the car to the ECU check that connection, no power.

Any suggestions?

[meritlover]

sounds like there is no power to the ECU.
check the switched live feeds.

[djshaggeh]

I havent wired any swithed wire feeds in yet:roll:

i guess it could be that, how do I go about it?

[meritlover]

i dont understand what you are saying, what did you connect to the large blue and red wire? the fuel pump, the ECU or both?
you checked for power where?
do you have even the slightest idea of what you are trying to do or how to achieve it?

[Lee]

Oh lordy.

1. Pump wont work unless the ECU is powered for obvious reasons. Find the connector block on the engine harness which used to connect to the doner cars internal loom. Red/blue from here should be connected to the fuel pump. If youve taken the red/blue fed from somewhere else theres a possibility you could have bypassed the relay.

2.You should also find a black wire which should be connected to a switched live (if your car used to be carb there will be a handy feed that used to power the coil). If you power from here, use an inline fuse. You can also splice into the loom from the fusebox for a neater solution, but again im giving you the easiest places to ensure you get it right.

3. You should find a thick red wire which neds to be connected directly to the battery.

4. Pick up a thick brown wire from anywhere in the loom and earth it to either the body or the -ve terminal on the battery.

This should start the car. (unless you have a very early Astra engine loom, in which case you wont find a black wire anywhere on the loom, switched live will be black with a yellow trace, and the fuel pump feed is blue!)

All this info is in the Articles section anyway.

[djshaggeh]

Cheers for the help

The car ran first time after I wired in the swithed live, I turned it off. Fixed a small fuel leak and tryed again. Ive since put more petrol in thinking there wasnt enough and it still wont fire up. The fuel pump is pumping but no petrol is going through the lines.

Any suggestions?

I have been using the old wiring artical because just about understood it but then it got updated, I found the old one though.

[Clean 2.0 nova]

We then worked back up the car to the ECU check that connection, no power.

sounds like there is no power to the ECU.
check the switched live feeds.

Well at least we know there is at least one rocket scientist on here.:roll:

[mikey14sr]

Wasn't a 1 litre was it? dont they have a resistor wire in the ignition feed that fails?

[jimbob-mcgrew]

"switched live feeds" - weve never done an engine change before, let alone an xe conversion, were behind enemy lines in uncharted territories here mate, your words are like riddles to us, anyhow we sorted that out, and it fired straight up, weve hit another problem.

why would it pump petrol, fire up, idle, get turned off, then stop pumping petrol for the second and so on try's.

fuel pumps still got power and is operating when it should, but no petrol anymore. any ideas ?
does the fuel system need bleeding ? if so how do we go about it ?

nah was a 1.4 carb previously mike.

[Lee]

So the pump is definately working but theres no fuel in the rail? But it worked the first time? How long was it idling for, and did you switch it off, or did it just die?

Could be a blockage in the tank, or one of the lines. Filter may have blocked up. Theres a bleed valve on the injection rail on the front of it, unscrew it and stick a screwdriver onto the nipple (bit like a tyre valve) and see if you get any fuel out of it.

[meritlover]

Well at least we know there is at least one rocket scientist on here.:roll:

i was being sarcastic :roll:
if there was no power,then theres no power, that IS the problem....trace it back and find out why not

nice of you to contribute another 'useful' post however.

[mikey14sr]

If it's not an injection tank then the fuel pick-up might be in the wrong place to get any fuel, but putting more in would have solved that temporarily.

Have you put a new fuel filter in? An old one could be blocked or if you haven't got one there could be a blockage in the pump.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

blockage in the tank... hmm.. yeh, thas quite possible, sounded like there was somet stuck in the tank before we installed it, small stone or something, tried gettin it out obviously, couldnt, said fcukit after a while, guessed it was a ball valve or something, lol, mighta possibly got stuck somewhere, will investigate that one, thinkin about it, if the problems anywhere, its gonna be at the pump or behind it, so shouldnt be hard to sort out.

yeh tried givvin that bleed valve a few pokes on 2 different occasions, after our fuel probs started, and twice a bit of petrol came out of there, even tho we didnt get any flow down the lines, should be empty in theory that ?

edit : it has a gte tank now, its not running a fuel filter at this time.

[mikey14sr]

The thing rattling around in the tank will most likely be the ping-pong-ball anti-syphon device, or the fuel level sender unit arm.

Did the petrol spurt out with some force or did it just trickle out from the bleed valve?

Does seem to sound like a blocked fuel line or pump now though.

[djshaggeh]

Yeh, that would make sense.

The petrol just trickled out.

[mowgli]

are you sure you have got it connected to the correct pipe???

[djshaggeh]

Which end?

Rail end (looking from the front of the car):
The righthand side is hooked up as the feed
The lefthand side is the hooked up as the return

Fueltank end (its a gte tank)
The feed is on the backside of the tank
The return is on the front

Thats how its setup.

[mikey14sr]

Which end?

Rail end (looking from the front of the car):
The righthand side is hooked up as the feed
The lefthand side is the hooked up as the return

Fueltank end (its a gte tank)
The feed is on the backside of the tank
The return is on the front

Thats how its setup.

On the fuel rail, the feed pipe should be at the cambelt side? it is on every vauxhall engine I've seen?

[djshaggeh]

Can anyone else confirm this before I swap them over?

[Lee]

No, on an XE the feed is on the right, return is on the left as you look at it from the front. The return will have the fuel pressure reg directly above it.

The Feed on the tank is the large outlet that comes out of the fuel level sender unit, and its on the FRONT of the tank iirc. The return is the smaller pipe on the back.

[djshaggeh]

Right update:

Its all hooked up in the right places, feed and return etc. Fuel rail and fuel tank ends.

I pulled out the pump and gave that a test, cowboy style using a jerry can and a coke bottle and just pumped a little bit of fuel from one side to another.

While we were testing it, the car sounded like it wanted to fire up even though the fuel pump wasnt hooked up?

Also when it was running the fuel pump was pumping quite alot and on the test I just did it wasnt pumping alot; could this be because we didnt have alot of fuel to play with or do you recon theres a bit of sh!t in the pump becuase I ran it without a fuel filter?

[Lee]

The fuel pump note will be different when the pump is under pressure, so thats why it sounds different when on the car.

If the pump is working, and it is pumping from the tank ok, but theres no fuel pressure at the rail, you may have a faulty FPR, or there may be a blockage in the filter/ fuel lines. Its also possible the pump is knackered and isnt pumping the fuel up to pressure.

You need to strip the fuel system from the rail back and test at each stage at a time.

[djshaggeh]

Right sounds good.

We retested it with more fuel and it was working really well and as you said the pump note changed.

We noticed a bad solder on the positive side of the fuel pump, so a quick re-solder and refit and hopefully thats the culprit. If not it looks like well have to strip back the fuel system :(

Thanks again for your help and your patients.

[djshaggeh]

http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/djshaggeh/?action=view&current=MOV00331.flv

and theres the result :(

[Lee]

Im starting to think the FPR may be fubarred. Remove the fuel feed on the back of the rail and crank it, see if your getting plenty of fuel. If you are, the FPR's not holding presssure OR the pump is struggling under pressure.

EDIT double check your fuel lines arn't crossed under the car, and you 'think' youve plumbed the feed in where its actually the return. If youre trying to pump the wrong way through the FPR it would give the same symptoms you mention, run for a bit then cut out, and you may have fubarred the FPR in the process :(

[djshaggeh]

Done that, there was a fair amount of fuel coming out. I dont think the problem lies with the fuel pump. How can I test the FPR?

[djshaggeh]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/djshaggeh/DSC00334.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/djshaggeh/DSC00333.jpg

Also, whats the score with these vaccum pipes?

[Lee]

Done that, there was a fair amount of fuel coming out. I dont think the problem lies with the fuel pump. How can I test the FPR?

Well if there is definately plenty of fuel getting to the rail, then either the FPR isnt holding pressure or the pump cant cope when the system pressurises. Only way to eliminate these is to try different items im afraid, or fit an inline fuel pressure guage.

[Clean 2.0 nova]

i was being sarcastic :roll:
if there was no power,then theres no power, that IS the problem....trace it back and find out why not

nice of you to contribute another 'useful' post however.

Sometimes contributing on a contribution seems more fitting than contributing on the initial problem. Chin up - just a subtle joke.:cool:

[jimbob-mcgrew]

sounds to me that the engine aint firing when we crank it.
with the fuel pump disconnected and not even any fuel in the equation it tries to fire, and almost does, but with the pump and fuel system hooked up, sounds to me that its not even gettin a spark cos the engines not even trying to start, has the ECU some control over the spark if it senses the fuel systems outta sync ?

could we test the FPR the same way as we tested the feed pipe ? im not 100% sure how its internals work, but if it does what i think it should, wouldnt we see plenty of fuel coming out the return if it was knakered ?

also those vaccum pipes seem suspect to me, like they should be joined together with a thin plastic pipe or blocked off ? that would effect running aswel no ?

[Lee]

Have you tested for a spark instead of assuming your not getting one? lol

[jimbob-mcgrew]

muvva.. bruvva.. any other sucka .. there still guns, and they still fire fcuking bullets ! lol

[djshaggeh]

Ill will test for sparks today

[djshaggeh]

Right I tested to see if its sparking and it is. I tried to wire in the EML light to my digidash. I used to the spanner symbol on the digidash and wired that to the brown/blue wire. When I turn on the electrics the light lights up but just stays on?

Can anyone help!
IM DEPERATE TO GET THIS THING ON THE ROAD

[Lee]

Have you tried a different pump or FPR yet?

[djshaggeh]

No, the pump is brand new. So im really hopeing that isnt ****ed. FPR is next, how much do they cost? and are they easy to fit.

I assume you drain the lines of petrol and get some reverse torxs bits, undo it and bolt the new one on?

[Lee]

Its easier to find a complete rail and swap it. Just get one from a scrapyard.

[djshaggeh]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Red-Top-C20XE-BLUE-Injectors-3-bar-FPR-rail-pipes_W0QQitemZ380032144662QQihZ025QQcategoryZ1040 4QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

How sure are you that its the FPR? Before I start throwing money at it :)

^I know its a stupid question but I trust what you say

[Lee]

Im only going by what you've told us so far :)

If your sure the pump is good, your sure the lines / tank arn't blocked, your sure the pump is running when you crank it and your sure youve plumbed it up the correct way, the only reason you dont have any fuel presure would be a fubared FPR

[djshaggeh]

Once again cheers Lee, for your patients.

I will redo all the above tests tommorow coz im a tight **** and if its still the same Ill try buying a new FPR or a secondhand rail inc. FPR.

Im sure Im about 20 posts away from finishing. ****ing cars....

[Lee]

lol you'll get there :)

Pay particular attention to making sure you have the lines plumbed in correctly. As I said, your original symptoms point to the fuel coming into the rail the wrong way. Follow the line all the way from the pump to the rail to make sure its not crossed over where you cant see it. I nearly made that mistake with Jacks, and it was only a double check that flagged it up.

[djshaggeh]

I checked it all out a few days ago, so its still fresh in my memory.

It goes a little something like this:

EXCEPT I MISSED UP OUT THE FUEL PUMP COZ IM STUPIDhttp://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/djshaggeh/setup.jpg

[Lee]

Thats correct :)

[djshaggeh]

Right we went through all the checks and tested the fuel return, as we hadnt before and the bloody thing still wont run.

I won an auction last night for a fuel rail inc. FPR for something like £12.50 inc. pnp. So ill get the cash set off and let you know if it works or not.

In the meantime I've gotta try and get this exhaust to fit