View Full Version : ultimate handling fast road spec nova?opinions/suggestions
hiya just been thinking about this and just wondered what you lot have done/suggest?im just saving up at the min for my suspension kit and i want to get all the handling side of things done first my spec would be as follows:
1.bilstein b12 kit or gaz coilovers
2.quick rack
3.polybushed allround
4.lsd
5.adjustable top mounts(whats difference between eccentric and concentric?:tard: )
6.decent tyres
7.stitch welded front end
also i have noticed you can buy rose jointed tiebar mounts.what do they do?
that lot should make it handle okay.theres probably loads more to do to it but im not sure what!lol.
anymore suggestions?
Welsh Dan
16-10-07, 11:46 PM
you missed out the 2 most important parts, weight reduction and tyre choice
you missed out the 2 most important parts, weight reduction and tyre choice
my bad
Welsh Dan
17-10-07, 01:16 AM
Basically, look at Dar's or Oli's cars and do that.
Eccentric mounts are off-centre, so you can adjust the camber(and possibly castor?) with them. Camber is the amount the wheel leans in or out, ie on its inside or outside edge, and castor is how much the camber changes with suspension travel. Concentric are fixed in the middle.
If you're stitch welding, do every seam in the car as this will stiffen the whole thing up.
Rose jointed tie bar/tca mounts are one-up from polybushes, there is _no_ play in them, until they wear out.
The cheapest and most effective thing all round is to strip out any un-needed weight. If you take out all of the interior that you don't need, ie rear seats, all interior trim, dash and replace the front seats with lightweight buckets, then cut out any excess metal that isnt needed, and replace the side windows with poly carbonate ones, you'll probably save 70-100kgs, which is effectively taking a passenger out, before they even got in lol.
Next up I'd consider braking: 256x24mm discs and calipers with suitable pads are the most popular upgrade because they're cheap and effective, if I wanted more than that I'd go for some aftermarket 4 or 6 pots (4 or 6 pistons per caliper), with some bigger discs.
With weight reduction and stopping sorted, I'd move onto polybushes and stitchwelding every seam in the car, which will reduce the amount of flex and play in every movement the car makes, which leads to...
aftermarket suspension... which I can't really help you with, other than to say I'd go for coilovers, with suitable springs for the weight of the car, and the damping setup to match the spring weight, which is important.
The last thing to sort out would be tyres, for road something like Goodyear Eagle F1's, Uniroyal rainsports or Toyo Proxes would be good choices, for track Toyo R888's Yokohama A048R's are popular, but I think Dar and Lee found something better for next season.
A good rollcage would also stiffen up the chassis a bit, and is a must for a regular track car, along with some good bucket seats and harnesses, so if it does go pear-shaped, hopefully you can walk away from it.
Also consider ditching the heater and getting a heated front windscreen. That heater matrix weighs a bit!
Think about weight distribution too. Moving the battery to the boot will help shift the weight balance backwards and make for a slight improvement in handling.
craig green
17-10-07, 10:33 AM
It should handle more than OK with that spec tbh. If most of the parts are fresh, uprated suspension & well chosen tyres will make a great combo.
Polybushes, quick rack & some geometry fettling, LSd, castor & camber will see it handling really well IMO. Likewise weight saving will pay great dividends & help acceleration greatly.
how do you adjust the castor?with the eccentric top mounts?also is there anything other parts to make it handle better that you can get that i have missed out?
Basically, look at Dar's or Oli's cars and do that.
.
Have to disagree there, driving our cars on the road would be a complete pain in the ass, plus they would just skip everywhere. Yes, if all UK roads were dead flat, but 99.9% of them arnt lol
I know Oli's is road legal, but im pretty sure you could build a car that would whoop its ass on your average B road.
peester
17-10-07, 08:06 PM
doesnt too much stiffening of a lightweight shell possibly start to hamper handling at all?? can't go o.t.t..? More the merrier??
paul james
17-10-07, 08:11 PM
Well if the suspension is too low and stiff the car will start launching off little bumps on the road surface and become a right handful to keep stable, I temporarily had a Pug 205 gti like that, was a total death trap.
doesnt too much stiffening of a lightweight shell possibly start to hamper handling at all??
God yes. On a track car, as stiff as possible is best as theres no potholes / bumps / manhole covers / small children etc.. to run over. On a road car,, its a recipie for disaster IMO
You should try coilovers, rosejoints and 660kgs. My fooker was getting air on the motorway lol lol lol
Nuff said really.
As Lee has pointed out I wouldn't copy my car setup for a road car. What works on a race track won't work well on the road.
However make sure your suspension setup is all good and properly maintained. This is what I would do.
1)Poly bush the whole car
2)Strut brace (optional although it did make a difference to mine)
2)Buy some decent shockers and springs
3)Get the tracking setup
4)Get some nice tyres
The problem with adjustable stuff is that you have to set it up properly and you won't notice the benifit on the road.
craig green
17-10-07, 08:59 PM
Aye there is a lot to be said for good firm suspension that is still pliable, decking it 100mm doesnt necessarily mean a car will scoot through bends the best. Looks fantastic whilst static at McDonalds but, -35 Eibachs & adjustable dampers set to what feels the optimum on local roads is the best compromise for road use IMO.
Castor can be adjusted by essentially moving the hub/strut back & forth by altering the length of the tie bars. Small amounts can have quite an effect, its usually done with rose jointed brackets on the cross member or if a really trick setup, tubular tie bars with rose joints at either end.
it will be a road car but i will be doing a few trackdays in it.i will be keeping it for a while and i want to get all the handling side done first.so im just looking for a list of things to do to it so that i can get it priced up and get saving:thumb: by the way it is a 1.6 8v
craig green
17-10-07, 09:15 PM
Being a road car just means you'll be using lower poundage springs IMO & not such aggressive geometry, likewise best off using a tyre thats particularly good in the wet (Eagles or Vredesteins) avoid Yoko's at all costs I've found. My car is rosejointed on the TCA's & doesnt feel any harsher for it. Bit of a myth that they are overkill or too harsh on road cars.
Everyone drives differently anyway, so theres no rules to ARB's etc & theres only so much you can do to a Nova.
Eagles
Amen Brother. Dan and Dar use them, and they get all doughy eyed and make sticky messes in their pants whenever they use them in the wet.
In fact, on a Trackday, you will hear Dan mention the words 'Goodyear' and 'F1' about 25 times lol
Being a road car just means you'll be using lower poundage springs IMO & not such aggressive geometry, likewise best off using a tyre thats particularly good in the wet (Eagles or Vredesteins) avoid Yoko's at all costs I've found. My car is rosejointed on the TCA's & doesnt feel any harsher for it. Bit of a myth that they are overkill or too harsh on road cars.
Everyone drives differently anyway, so theres no rules to ARB's etc & theres only so much you can do to a Nova.
i have got toyo t1-r's for the road and getting r888's for the track.what do the rosejointed tca's actually do?
paul james
17-10-07, 10:04 PM
Have to agree Eagle F1's are brilliant, although I've been caught out twice being too confident in the wet with them
craig green
17-10-07, 10:17 PM
I noticed all the eagle F1's about at llandow. EVO mag rave about te new Vredesteins in the wet too & as an all rounder (incl dry) cheap too.
Rosejointed bottom arms effectively offer no play like a bush & being inserted via a thread into the TCA, mean you can play with the camber with them.
Mine are just set to std as I've never had the cash to have a geometry set up nor have I had the castor brackets to really take full advantage of a laser geometry setup. However my GF's Dad now imports the stuff & when the time comes, I'll be learning on my own car with it I expect. :)
Hhhhm, quite an interesting read here...
Just my two pence worth from my experiences. Yes, to lesser weight and to harder/fettled suspension systems/setup for a road car can result in quite a dangerous drive....I though it was a great idea replacing my hydrolic damper fluid with uber expensive 100tonne compression machine hydrolic fluid, coupled to a ARB'd rear beam, stripped car (circa 750kg ish) resulted in a 180degree spin at 15mph on a traffic island lol
IMO driver feedback is an integral part of a car, so polybushes everywhere, remove the front ARB, a nice firm suspension setup and weight saving/distrobution are a very good idea for road use. From there you can continue as already covered onto stitch/seam welding or go a step further with a cage welded & tagged to the A, B & C pillars.
right time to dig up an old thread:D (which i found very very helpfull!!)at the minute i have:
gaz coilovers-fronts are 270 lb and rears 170(im thinking they are a bit low:confused: )so im looking at buying some 300lb rears.
rosejointed and adjustable tiebars(not fitted yet)but i have got strengthened bottom arms and polybushed tiebars at the min
quiaffe lsd(not fitted yet)
decent tyres but im trying eagle f1's when these have worn out
hopefully buying a chassis plating kit(will i feel the difference?front end has already been seam welded on the chassis legs)
anything else i can do to it?without fully stripping it out and caging it?
what do people run geometry wise?toe/caster/camber?
its a road going 1.6 8v but used on occasional trackdays
Cant beleive Proflex suspension isnt on your list :( saying that, for £4k a set new im not suprised lol
300lb rears on the road is a bad idea imo. See mikes post on the last page.
Cant beleive Proflex suspension isnt on your list :( saying that, for £4k a set new im not suprised lol
lol £4k a set!its more than double i paid for the nova so i think i shall give them a miss!(even thought the remote canisters look very :cool: )
what poundage springs do you recommend then?or is it just trial and error?
tom_beverley
03-09-08, 10:43 AM
Buy yourself some eccentric top mounts too for a little more caster/camber adjustability.
i cnat believe this hasnt been mentioned yet
Solid engine mounts FTW!
See this post in one of my old threads
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showpost.php?p=435817&postcount=8
dhdev (Oli)
03-09-08, 04:11 PM
Can only really echo whats been said already. What works on track does not work on the road, down a bumpy B road i reckon I'd struggle against a Mini cooper S :cry:
I wouldn't bother with rosejoints on a road car, polybushes will do a better job on the road and won't require maintenance/inspection (plus cheaper!). I reckon a decent set of adjustable dampers and 40-60mm springs (depends how bad the roads are round you), strut braces. I wouldn't even bother with too much weight saving, will probably make it too nervous/skittish. Anti-dive mounts are recommended (AKA lowered tie-bar mounts) These really do help to keep the nose up under braking and reduce the amount of squat under acceleration.
On track, the lighter, lower, wider and stiffer the better (to a degree obviously).
Hence why mine is so light, is fully rosejointed (except the rear beam), runs a welded in cage, seam welded shell, HHMS chassis plates, anti-dive tie-bar mounts, spaced out front wheels (50mm wider track), about 80mm down (estimate) and a nice low C of G :)
liftoffoversteer
03-09-08, 10:53 PM
For my 2p, I'd probably go in this order...
Bilstein tarmac spec dampers (aka. Irmscher/Courtenay spec) with Eibach springs
15-inch wheels with decent 195/45 tyres
Diesel front and rear ARBs
front strut brace
Poly bushes
Rose jointed lower arms
HHMS anti-dive kit
rear strut brace, half or full cage
plate kit and stitch welding
Reducing weight as you go is a good move too.
But as previously mentioned driving style and cash flow are always major factors! :thumb:
what poundage springs do you recommend then?or is it just trial and error?
The thing is, ive always had a problem with reeling off a spec which is supposed to be the 'best setup'. Every driver is different, and will adapt to different mods in their own way. If you dont do one thing at a time and learn what each mod does, you will run into difficulties. If you bolt on a huge amount of adjustable goodies at once, you wont know whats doing what to the handling etc...
On the other hand, there isn't anything wrong with starting with a prooven stock setup that works, and adapting it to your own style. THEN start arsing with the cambers / castors etc. Ive been using a Nova for track work for 3 years now, and im STILL not at a stage where i feel im ready to start attaching rose jointed gubbins because ive not got the current setup to work 100% yet, and im not going to kid myself that i know everything i need to to actually attempt it. But once the thing is where i want it to be with the current setup, i will start researching it properly and know what each adjustment will do before i do it.
So, back to the original question, fit some standard poundage springs first, and then see what needs fettling. Hike the poundage by 50lb at a time and see what happens. IMO its the only way to build an 'ultimate handling car' because each person will have their own ultimate setup which may not work for others :)
one thing that people seem to neglect is unsprung weight. this has a massive effect on your handling and is one of the reason ive decided to down size my brakes but go for better quality. resulting in the same braking efficiency but less weight. also choosing wheels by the weight and not necessarily looks
RSTChris
04-09-08, 09:38 AM
Where can you buy/guide to make the anti dive kits?
Cheers :)
anti dive kits consist of the same arb lowering blocks as in converion kits ;)
RSTChris
04-09-08, 09:54 AM
Gotcha!
Thanks
the anti dive kit is just a lowering of 20mm on the brackets..
Stanley
14-09-09, 12:01 PM
My Nova consists of this so far. . .
1600 8v (mainly standard)
Spax fixed rate springs/shocks (40mm)
Polybushed lower arms/tie bar mounts.
New balljoints.
GSi front ARB (rear on shopping list).
15" Compomotive MO's with 195/45/15 Toyo T1R's.
Stripped interior including sound deadening.
Rear Strut brace.
After visiting Knockhill yesaterday in my mates 215bhp Metro, i want to attend the odd track day....
Any reccomendations?
Would like it to sit lower too.
My Nova consists of this so far. . .
1600 8v (mainly standard) Start with that see how you feel about the power, if you have trouble handling it you don't wanna be throwing in an xe.
Spax fixed rate springs/shocks (40mm) Might want something a bit more serious for track.
Polybushed lower arms/tie bar mounts.
New balljoints.
GSi front ARB (rear on shopping list). Go the opposite, rear but no front
15" Compomotive MO's with 195/45/15 Toyo T1R's. T1R's need binning, last set I had nearly killed me on a roundabout.
Stripped interior including sound deadening. Seats/headlining?
Rear Strut brace. Proper affair or a bolt to the strut tops so it looks fancy one?
After visiting Knockhill yesaterday in my mates 215bhp Metro, i want to attend the odd track day....
Any reccomendations?
Would like it to sit lower too. 40-60mm is probably pretty optimum for a standard geometry nova, obviously get it tracked but go much lower and you will have massive problems with bump steer, mine is noticable on the road.
.
My Nova consists of this so far. . .
1600 8v (mainly standard)
Spax fixed rate springs/shocks (40mm)
Polybushed lower arms/tie bar mounts.
New balljoints.
GSi front ARB (rear on shopping list).
15" Compomotive MO's with 195/45/15 Toyo T1R's.
Stripped interior including sound deadening.
Rear Strut brace.
After visiting Knockhill yesaterday in my mates 215bhp Metro, i want to attend the odd track day....
Any reccomendations?
Would like it to sit lower too.
Leave it like that.... Pretty Respectable spec for a first track-day. No offence intended, but you just might not enjoy it ?
One thing i would suggest is a pair of Mintex M1155's . I take it you have ATE calipers ? They're about £80 but they should be reletivly fade-free on your first bash.
Oh, and in terms of power. a WELL setup 1600 will still be competetive... Alot of the Jap/Turbo cars you see at trackdays are hammered down the straights, and then they back off for the corners.... hammer the straights - Nothing really to be proud about there is there ? Get it going through the corners and straights at the limit of it's power and then think about engine upgrades/replacment
anti dive kits consist of the same arb lowering blocks as in converion kits ;)
No it doesnt, its the lowering of the tie bars.
One thing i would suggest is a pair of Mintex M1155'st
I thought the 1155s were for heavier cars, with the 1144s better for Novas?
still a good one though burgs.
I have 1155's on my VX and they be emmense pads!!! very little wear, stop like feck, no fade. WIN. 1144's while great, just wear out far far far far too fast and wind up costing more than 1155's as you have to keep changing them lol
im not disputing that just confused as to how people stumble across such old threads, i mean its not as if anyone uses the search is it lol
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