Supercharging an E16SE

[RobMarriott]

If it's been answered before, then I apologise, but I couldn't see an in depth reply.

Basically, I need to know what to do compression wise, does anyone sell low compression pistons, or would I have to use a spacer plate?

Also, using an Eaton M45, does the throttle body need to go between the charger and the engine, or between the charger and the air filter?

Cheers.

[pul16v]

yes people sell low compression pistons dunno where tho not looked in to it but ive seem them about on the net, throttle body usually goes between charger and filter but i have seem them between charger n engine but usually in multi throttle configuration cant see it being good for the butterflies unless it has some for of bump valve or bypass which i dnt think the m45 has ?

phil

[Ash]

mahle will do the pistons, dunno any suppliers tho

[RobMarriott]

Hmmm, I think Mahle's head office is on an industrial estate near me, I know KKK have an office up there, but I'm sure Mahle are too.

I might give them a call.

If anyone else knows where else can do them though, that'd be great.

[burgo]

mvaux do them

[RobMarriott]

Ok, next question.

Will the standard management system cope with a small amount of boost with larger injectors, or am I dreaming?

How do the turbo people normally do it?

[bieransri]

theres a guy on here who had a c16se i think, he had some sort of swith??? with standard management. have you seen the replies in the 8v block 16v head thread?

[Adam]

The standard management is set for standard fuel pressure, so large injectors will just flood the engine over the entire rev range.

You need some way of upping fuel when on boost (i.e. aftermarket management which is mapped for positive pressure(boost))

You can "bodge" it with a dual rate fpr, or a switch to "trick" the ecu into just dumping fuel in randomly.

[RobMarriott]

I see.

Well, it's a budget build, and I guess the FPR way is cheaper than a chip/remap?

Where can I find a dual pressure FPR? Can't see any on ebay.

[Adam]

Probably best emailing someone like courtney etc and seeing if they sell them seperately.

[Mike]

use a SARD pressure regulator ;)

Green16v used a micro swith in conjunction with his ECU, i guess it dumps more fuel when boost come online??

[RobMarriott]

Ok, cheers :)

[RobMarriott]

use a SARD pressure regulator ;)

Excellent, I'll have a search

[Adam]

Green16v used a micro swith in conjunction with his ECU, i guess it dumps more fuel when boost come online??
Indeed, exactly how accurate that can be im not sure tho.

[Ash]

i guess it dumps more fuel when boost come online??

but being supercharged the boost is constant. It doesn't spool up like a turbo, so maybe look at mega squirt for mapping

[RobMarriott]

To be honest, it's not a problem if it all goes belly up and melts stuff, the engine has cost ?40, the charger was free, everything else will be as cheap as possible, so really there's not a lot to lose.

The only problem I can see with the switched boost is that it's linear with a supercharger, not all suddenly there as it is with a turbo, so it might run a bit funny at certain revs :(

I suppose I could stretch to a chip and map as long as it wasn't too much money, and if it would solve it :S

[RobMarriott]

maybe look at mega squirt for mapping

MS is another option, I'd not thought of that

[Mike]

but being supercharged the boost is constant. It doesn't spool up like a turbo, so maybe look at mega squirt for mapping

I know, but you could possibly use a similiar setup, albeit a bodge IMO to keep fuelling through the engine/charger's cycle when the engine is running/under load

Some one reffered to how his setup runs, i answered :thumb: lol

[bieransri]

but if boost is constant couldnt you just run the higher pressure?

as with the turbo using a constant high pressure thered be too much fuel when not on boost bu enough when on boost

so with the supercharger supplying boost all the time use some sort of intermediate fuel pressure to supply enough for the constant boost.

or would ther be too much fuel at low revs and not enough at high revs?

[Mike]

Or you could even go old skool with a 5th injector setup, or like RS500's, and 8 injector setup lol lol

[Adam]

I'd seriously look at megasquirt, ?250 and it can control your whole engine properly and safely.

[RobMarriott]

or would ther be too much fuel at low revs and not enough at high revs?

Yeah, the boost increases with the revs, so it'd overfuel at low revs :(

I was thinking that the standard management would adjust the fuelling slightly with the extra airflow (Don't ask where that idea came from though lol )

I might just bang the C20XE blues in and have it run like a bag of nails off boost. It's not going to be a daily driver anyway, just a bit of fun, so I'm not sure I even need it to idle :wtf:

[RobMarriott]

I'd seriously look at megasquirt, ?250 and it can control your whole engine properly and safely.

That does seem like the sensible option TBH lol

Everything else is a bit of a bodge by the sounds of things.

[Adam]

Out of interest, what model does a Eaton M45 come on?
Guessing Mini Cooper as thats usually what people look at using.


Megasquirt, and a wideband lambda setup, you could have a crack at a map yourself,Lol.

[RobMarriott]

Yeah, it's the good old mini cooper s one, nice and cheap (or free in this case)

Does the E16SE manifold have a lambda hole, or would I need a boss welding in?

[Adam]

E16 dont.
But a C16/C14se one does, and it'll bolt right on.

[Ash]

I might just bang the C20XE blues in and have it run like a bag of nails off boost. It's not going to be a daily driver anyway, just a bit of fun, so I'm not sure I even need it to idle :wtf:


lol it would be very interesting to see a supercharged 1.6, rather than a c20xe, or you mean supercharge the 2.0?

if it was me.

1.6 engine - ?50 (dont need ecu, etc)
MS - ?200
Low comp pistons - ?200ish
rebuild costs - ?100
charger - free
ARP bolts - ?50 (optional)

seems good to me, should see good power for ?550, seeming a similer power output from T40's, MPi or turbo would probably cost upward of ?1k for the cheapest option.

[Adam]

You could knock Arp's off the list if you wanted more budget.
Charger meaning you'll be making peak power at low-ish revs(could keep standard limiter etc)
So you dont need silly revs.

[RobMarriott]

Can't really rev over 6500 with the M45 apparently, it starts to become less efficient, so the ARPs could (would) be left off the list.

I'm not sure if I'll even bother with the low comp pistons, it's a ?40 engine, I'll just replace it if it does go bang, then try the pistons, I might get lucky and it work fine without, it's worth a try IMO.

The plan is to get it running in a car for under a grand, abuse it a bit and just have some cheap fun really, I'm not expecting it to set the world alight, but it'll maybe have 140bhp, which will be quite nice :)

A spacer plate would be cheaper than pistons too, and even more of a bodge :lol:

[Ash]

thinking on it, i should of done a 1.6 supercharged engine for my project. cheaper than these T40's and would be better on fuel. Plus a mate works at BMW = free charger.

[RobMarriott]

I'll get hold of a C14SE manifold too then, that makes things easier. I love Vauxhall parts compatibility :D

[Adam]

Can't really rev over 6500 with the M45 apparently, it starts to become less efficient, so the ARPs could (would) be left off the list.

I'm not sure if I'll even bother with the low comp pistons, it's a ?40 engine, I'll just replace it if it does go bang, then try the pistons, I might get lucky and it work fine without, it's worth a try IMO.

The plan is to get it running in a car for under a grand, abuse it a bit and just have some cheap fun really, I'm not expecting it to set the world alight, but it'll maybe have 140bhp, which will be quite nice :)

A spacer plate would be cheaper than pistons too, and even more of a bodge :lol:
Might need a clutch change after a few miles(if it lasts that long,Lol)

[Mike]

so how would you drive the charger?

[Adam]

Some form of fabricated bracket to hold the charger inline with the crank pully.
Looking at pics of one, the pully looks similar to a vauxhall ribbed belt one.

http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_M45_drawing.gif

[Mike]

jesus, so there aint going to be much room under the bonnet then

[bieransri]

:cool: dooo it robin, would love to see it done:thumb:

[bieransri]

obviously in a nova not a girly carlol

[Adam]

jesus, so there aint going to be much room under the bonnet then
If you mounted it in front of the engine, could probably remove the slam panel, and replace it with box section, that would give more room.

[Mike]

:cool: dooo it robin, would love to see it done:thumb:

id do it, and bollocks to MS :D id bodge it, and if it actually worked, then do it properly

saying that, a chap round here has got a supercharged 2.0 16v Ibiza GTi using standard management, and develops 205bhp

[Mike]

If you mounted it in front of the engine, could probably remove the slam panel, and replace it with box section, that would give more room.

Well, im not upto speed with super chargers, so one end is the inlet, the other end goes to the inlet manifold basically? Belt driven from crank, so faster engine spins, faster charger goes yes? :wtf:

[Adam]

Pretty much

[Mike]

Pretty much

do they use intercoolers on supercharged engine, im sure they do dont they???

[burgo]

you can do

[RobMarriott]

The plan is to use a longer multi-v belt, in place of the standard belt (I think they have the same rib count), with the charger mounted on the front of the engine above the exhaust manifold.

I think I might have to relocate the thermostat somehow though (That's another thing I need to work out lol )

Then it's just a case of piping it up, through and intercooler and with a dump valve somewhere to release the pressure on idle.

As for space, I think it'd be alright, it's going to be in a Corsa I think (decent ones seem to be cheaper than decent Novas, but if a Nova comes up then I'll have that) so there should be a fair bit of space. If not, I'll cut a hole in the bonnet :|

[Mike]

I recon you could potentially get away with standard managment and a spacer, if that tbh

Half hearted yes, but as you say its a budget car?

[bieransri]

If not, I'll cut a hole in the bonnet :|

im loving your attitude towards thislol

agreed on the corsa part though. they are easier to come by:thumb:

[Adam]

A quick google of the cooper s spec says its a 1600 16v, making 163hp.
With a 8.3:1 CR

Its hard to see how its fitted on a cooper, as the engines just covered with plastic covers and crap lol

[RobMarriott]

Well, the Cooper S has an 8.3:1 C/R, and runs at about 10psi, so if I could get the E16 CR down to somewhere similar, it should be safe for the same, if it works like that lol

Although I'm not sure on pulley sizes on the E16, does anyone know the bottom pulley diameter?

[Adam]

You could fit a ribbed pully/belt setup onto it. Pully fitment is the same.

[bieransri]

the cooper s's bay is very tight. tw*t my knuckles everytime ive worked on one:mad:

[RobMarriott]

A quick google of the cooper s spec says its a 1600 16v, making 163hp.
With a 8.3:1 CR

Its hard to see how its fitted on a cooper, as the engines just covered with plastic covers and crap lol

I think the charger sits on top of the inlet manifold and blows straight in to it the intercooler is before it :confused:

That doesn't seem quite right in my head though, I can't see how that would work efficiently

[bieransri]

could you not do the c16xe into a nova trick backwards? use the c16xe bottom pully(for ribbed belt) use the c16xe alternator and you more than likely wouldnt be using the pas pump so youd have the longer belt? or would it still not be long enough?

[Mike]

might have a go at building one one day

chap i know with the Seat reckoned it cost him around ?500 all in, thats whith standard management and no intercooler

[RobMarriott]

could you not do the c16xe into a nova trick backwards? use the c16xe bottom pully(for ribbed belt) use the c16xe alternator and you more than likely wouldnt be using the pas pump so youd have the longer belt? or would it still not be long enough?

That's the plan I think, it definitely needs the multi-v setup, and the PAS belt is a good shout but I'll have to make a tensioner bracket I think.

[Novasport]

what about supercharging AND turbocharging like the Lancia S4, I fancy that, it would be an animal!!!

[PaulW]

http://www.enem.se/lysholm.asp
Might be worth sending ENEM an email. They've been supercharging OPELs for years using Lysholm screw type superchargers. Might need babel fish to translate tho. Ive got they're brochure and its full of lovely bits!
Theyll supply pistons and manifolds etc, or just look at the pics for ideas:)

http://butiken.enem.se/katalog.asp?flik=sectionone

This link takes you to their shop which is priced in swedish Kroner plus 25% tax or something but that can be removed for another ec country. Click on button above price that says inc MOMS to change it to EXCL MOMS. They list a full kit plus all the components indervidually that make up the kit for a an e16se, Corsa A gsi. Plus a full range of superchargers depending on how mental you want to go.
1GBP = 0.07376 SEK (swedish Kroner) 1100 quid for a supercharger 130 quid for a drive kit

http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?type=url&url=www.enem.se%2Flysholm.asp&text=&from=swe&to=eng

Sorry to keep adding links but this is their supercharger fitting guide on their website through a translator with some interesting results. The whole website is translated so just click on all the pages and it will translate automatically through intertran.,

[craig green]

I'd just de-compress the cylinders with a 2.5mm spacer plate & 2 headgaskets if it on a budget.

MS is the most effective, cheap way of fuelling it. Injectors from a 20XE wont work with the Bosch L jetronic in my experience, so I'd have some std injectors cleaned & go from there.

The boost pressure is usually adjusted by altering the pulley size on the charger, effectively fitting a smaller pulley will raise the speed & uppping booost a little.

Using a pressure operated switch, wired into the TPS. It can fool the std ECU into full throttle & then use a rising rate FPR to cope with the fuelling at a higher pressure than std (2.5bar). You will want a nice fat 4 branch & system to lose all the extra gases too.

[Stuart]

mmmmmmm bodge like the folks in the fens do tastic lol.

[craig green]

He's asked how to do it on the cheap......

I admire the approach, its not like its a huge loss if he melts the pistons on a ?40 bottom end? Probably be most gutted about the walk home.

Its surprising what people can build in a shed & make work for quite a long time.

[Mike]

Its surprising what people can build in a shed & make work for quite a long time.

Yep ;) whats his name with the Pug 306 Rally car, Rear engined, 4x4 IIRC, black and red. Built it all himself in his chicken barn at his farm :thumb:

[craig green]

My point is... Its encouraging to see pikey car fettlers build something fast that didnt need pages of equations or specialist parts to get right. People that turbocharge engines on the cheap, that end up being proper fast etc but get slated by the rich guys for not having mapped management etc.

But yet it can still last & be faster than other more expensive stuff.

[Mike]

My point is... Its encouraging to see pikey car fettlers build something fast that didnt need pages of equations or specialist parts to get right. People that turbocharge engines on the cheap, that end up being proper fast etc but get slated by the rich guys for not having mapped management etc.

But yet it can still last & be faster than other more expensive stuff.

:thumb: top words

Personally, fancy management or not, I wouldnt give a monkeys, it if works, if be happy enough! Id be pleased with the power i got for the price it cost.

So it maybe unsafe, bothered! If i built it, id know how to fix it if it broke, id know what parts i used and from where :) ;)

[womble sri]

It's not going to be a daily driver anyway, just a bit of fun, so I'm not sure I even need it to idle :wtf:

My sr never used to idle lol
and i did a 50 mile commute every day!
no wonder its dead :wall:

[Philsutton]

No need for an intercooler with the supercharger as it shouldnt really increasing the intake temp like a turbo. I wouldnt bother going as low as 8:1 compression ratio, 9:1 ish will probably do the job fine, its not like your going to be running stupid boost.

[pul16v]

if you really want to do it on the cheap use a carb on the endof the charger draw thru style might have afew pics if you want to see it bolted together will be on a bike engine tho
then all you need for the ignition is the sr ignition everyone uses for the twin 40 conversion it also halves alot of work you have to do and makes it cheaper and you wont have fueling problems as the charger will simply pull thru the correct ammount of fuel once jetted correcly

phil

[pul16v]

No need for an intercooler with the supercharger as it shouldnt really increasing the intake temp like a turbo. .

those eatons do get quite hot tho maybe some type of top mount type could be fitted subaru style

phil

[Philsutton]

maybe so but they dont glow