View Full Version : Internal brake and fuel lines ?
Im building a nova to as close to a rally spec as poss. I want to run internal fuel and brake lines. I really want them to be braided stanless lines. Any ideas what i need ?
I dont have a clue what i need for the master cylinder end of the lines, or what i need to pass tho the boot floor !
Can anyone who has this mod done give me some insite to cost and what parts i might need.
Same with fuel lines, it will be an internal tank.
easy peasy! ive just got an entire set of braided stainless steel internal feul lines, a stainless steel fuel filter an now after pump to mount in boot :D even gone as far as stainless steel P clips to rivet the lines to the shell
as for brake lines, use copper lines ;)
Where can i get some and how much !?!
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j181/mikenova/fuelfilter.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j181/mikenova/fuellines.jpg
Where can i get some and how much !?!
filter was ?14 delivered, 30 P clips were about ?14 delivered, that big roll of feul line (3meters) was ?34.95, just waiting on another roll of it ;)
If its fuel injected then you will need 4 bulkhead fittings and only 2 if its a carb engine. If you can find a hydraulics place near you then you can get braided hose and fittings (JIC-6). Go home and cut the pipe to length and put the right ends on. Then go back and get the lot swedged on. Alot cheaper than Areoquip fittings.
Piccys of a fuel injected setup.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/DPursey/DSC06481_640x480.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/DPursey/DSC06483_640x480.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/DPursey/DSC06484_640x480.jpg
As for breaklines.
Its 5mtrs of pipe 3 bulkhead fittings, three 90 degree's, 3 straights, one T-Piece & 3 main/male connectors. There are small variations on that.
Part numbers - Just for the inside of the car (From Rally Design)
3xRD1533 - M10x M10 Male - Male
1xRD1547 - T Piece M10 x1.0 Female
4xRD1511 - Female concave seat M10x1
5xRDPIPE - Euroquip 600 hose
2xRD1550 - 90 Elbow Female C/Cave M10x1
3xRD1541 - M10xM10 Male/Male
That will get you the lines inside the car with two fittings poking out of the rear and one in the front out to the engine bay. From here you can use solid pipe. However if you want to have braided hose to the master cylinder then just add two more RD1550, you will have enough pipe left over for this.
That lot cost me ?60.70+VAT+Delivery. Don't order any of this stuff unless you know and understand exactly how and where every part is used.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/DPursey/DSC06279_640x480.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/DPursey/DSC06282_640x480.jpg
Hope this helps
Dar
very smart that Dar :D I will be just fitting the fuel lines through the shell, with grommits in the holes lol
craig green
16-03-07, 10:04 AM
damn. All that brake line shizzle is so confusing. Ive been on the Rally Design site numerous times & still dont know what I want. As Dar has said, dont order unless you know what you want exactly (which is why I havent commited myself yet).
I want to run the rear brake hose inside the car & split from a T-peice above the boot floor & then individual braided line to each rear caliper. The fronts will be plumbed the same. I'm using a Corsa master cylinder in the battery tray though.
If you want to help me Dar?
Ive found www.thinkauto.com (http://www.thinkauto.com) for brake hoses etc too. Ive emailed them but heard nothing back.
or you could do it another way although unless you are confident of doing it right first time the braided route is the easiest way out...........
http://www2.novaload.net/files/dan/fin4.jpg
Following on from that pic here's a quote from cp in brief about what was done to achieve it, robbed from the initial finished thread a few years back........
Brake line info.
We used 4.75mm soft copper brake tubing. I have a flaring kit and we used 10 mm unions on the flared ends where they fitted (flexible brake pipe unions) and used appropriate recovered nova ones else where (on the master cylinder basically)
The brake lines were simplified as per rally spec - ie one line to both rears and 1 line to both fronts. This requires the lines to have a "T" installed which i got for a few quid each from a local pneumatic suppliers. These come with olives so no flaring is needed. Spare outlets on the master cylinder are blanked off using a little piece of copper pipe crimped and brazed to seal it up. Right angled unions were used to go down through the body at the rear and through the bulkhead at the front just above the central tunnel again with the olive connectors. The normal brake biassing valve was retained for the rear circuit. The front circuit was bent and formed to go the same route as the std setup
The whole thing is very easy and straight forward to do really and not too expensive
Jon_nova1
16-03-07, 06:13 PM
Dar, with all the braided hoses and custom brake setup you've done, why didn't you put the brake setup on the otherside like a corsa?
Dar, with all the braided hoses and custom brake setup you've done, why didn't you put the brake setup on the otherside like a corsa?
to what advantage tho? as tbh its more work lol thats not really essenial if you ask me
Jon_nova1
16-03-07, 06:18 PM
it takes out the pole thingy, so it'd be lighter, and i've been told it gives a more direct feel? i thought it was just a case of putting a corsa setupin place of the nova one? as he's got braided brake hoses he wouldn't need to worry about the pipes?
it takes out the pole thingy, so it'd be lighter, and i've been told it gives a more direct feel? i thought it was just a case of putting a corsa setupin place of the nova one? as he's got braided brake hoses he wouldn't need to worry about the pipes?
yeah it does get rid of the balance bar setup, but tbh all that work for around what say 8kg+
as for a direct feel i cant really comment, but for sake of making large holes, then having to re-position battery, for a road car its not really worth it IMHO
Jon_nova1
16-03-07, 06:24 PM
you wouldn't have to re-position the battery?? and theres a hole on the other side the plate just needs taking of, and id think a plate would be available for the otherside, maybe for the corsa?
Dar, how come you only have one line going to the rear ? Have you blanked one off on from the mater cylinder ? Really good info, but im having trouble to understand it as i only just finished a 11 and a half hours shift !
cheers tho mate, i will read it when im a bit more complient.
you wouldn't have to re-position the battery?? and theres a hole on the other side the plate just needs taking of, and id think a plate would be available for the otherside, maybe for the corsa?
im pretty sure you do have to move the battery, look at all the projects that have changed the master cylinder
ashtal - The other output from the master cylinder is blanked off. Im making a little bleed nipple so that after I have blead the breaks I can open up this blead nipple and pump out a bit more break fluid from the reseviour. Its for when I put the cap back on. I use an automatic bleading kit and it fills the pot right up.
My battery is already in the boot. The reason I haven't done anything else with the breaks yet is because I haven't thought about it. Also my new fuel system takes up the space needed in the engine bay. That could be moved though. One step at a time :)
Piccy of the fuel system so you can see what I mean.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/DPursey/DSC06485_640x480.jpg
General Baxter
16-03-07, 08:27 PM
how overkill does that photo look lol
tom reid
16-03-07, 08:31 PM
Neat and tidy though, easy to work on.
how overkill does that photo look lol
Yup, but needed. I was getting fuel starvation with over 1/2 a tank of fuel on board last year:(
tom reid
16-03-07, 08:47 PM
Credit where it's due pal.
Jon_nova1
16-03-07, 09:18 PM
agreed ;)
I always thought that the rac blue book forbids the fitment of internal fuel lines for the rather obvious safety reasons.
I'm not even sure that an mot station will pass then, and insurance companies would go ballistic.
Also a genuine gm fuel injection tank solves the problem of fuel starvation.
Sorry to be an old codger about this, but I think safety always comes before looks.
It would actually be a lot less trouble just fitting some fake pipes.
tom reid
16-03-07, 09:27 PM
Sorry mowgli, you're wrong, RAC recommend that fuel and brake lines are fitted internally in some disciplines for safety, forest rallying for example, all my past rally cars have had them and passed the mot.
mowgli, look at the date on my pic, the car has been on the road every year since then with no problems at all from any angle. I even ask the mot guy to give it a proper hard looking over and why as at the end of the day i take mine on track and give it all i can so want it in tip top condition :thumb: following on from tom's reply i have crewed for mny years and been within the rally circles round here to have seen more than enough.
Although i will admit the tank thing i thought to be correct to as i have never suffered starvation until under 1/4 of a tank, but alot of that would be down to what angle i have the car at during that moment lol
I always thought that the rac blue book forbids the fitment of internal fuel lines for the rather obvious safety reasons.
I'm not even sure that an mot station will pass then, and insurance companies would go ballistic.
Also a genuine gm fuel injection tank solves the problem of fuel starvation.
Sorry to be an old codger about this, but I think safety always comes before looks.
It would actually be a lot less trouble just fitting some fake pipes.
Wrong wrong wrong
Think of all the rally cars out there going through the forest hitting rocks etc. Now think about the best place to put fuel lines;) these cars are governed by the Blue book rules. Also the genuine gm fuel tank will not solve fuel starvation.
Also internal lines will be safer due to the fact that they are inside the car and out of harms way. They are not under pressure and the lines are alot tougher than the copper pipe used externally.
EDIT: Too slow with my reply. I only got fuel starvation on long fast bends. Two at Combe and one at Donnington. Very annoying is was too. I also only started getting it bad after fitting the R888's. When I go to slicks the problem would have been worse.
Ok, I stand corrected, but I still stick to my safety concerns for a passenger carrying road car
tom reid
16-03-07, 09:52 PM
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/tomreid/novamastercyl.jpgAnyway, with all the debating, I forgot to pimp these again!.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w195/tomreid/novarearbrakepipe.jpg
Dan, I just checked the blue book regs, and your pump doesn't fully satisfy the regs. It looks well executed & tidy, and I don't doubt that it has passed mots.
When run internally, the pipes must be either metal, or braided, with screw fixing ends (which means no jubilee clips) or covered with metal boxing. There must be an approved fire extinguisher & a fuel shut off device (apparently the ign switch is ok with injection), both within easy reach of the driver whilst in their seat.
For some reason, any rally cars entered in international rallys must have external fuel lines.
Dar, for roadgoing, the gm tank is fine. If you want to go very fast then a full(ish) tank is a must. For slick tyred track action, I would think that a foam filled tank type thing would be mandatory.
When I first stuck a gte lump in my old mk1 astra (i had written the nova off & the astra was very cheap) I stuck the fuel pump in the engine bay, and fitted an astra gte tank, and then went through 3 pumps. I stuck the 4th one down by the tank & never had any more trouble with fuel supply. I was told by a bosch man that the efi pumps are very good at blowing but not sucking.
Mowgli - My car is not a road car but rather a sprint car and therefore I need the swirl pot etc. I agree its not needed for a road car, but I do need it. I have thought about changing the tank, but though that this would be the first step since its alot easier than what I would do if I changed the tank.
If I kill the rear external pump then I will get a different type of pump. I run two pumps.
Dar, could you fit some sort of internal baffling into the tank? I know you would have to get a brave person to cut & weld a petrol tank, but it might be cheaper.
I could have foam filled it but then It would screw up the fuel guage. If I still get the same problems this year I will think of something more.
All pro-race teams have foam tanks & have to keep very accurate fueling records, and even they end up running out of fuel.....
Do you have to prime your setup & bleed it?
Dan, I just checked the blue book regs, and your pump doesn't fully satisfy the regs. It looks well executed & tidy, and I don't doubt that it has passed mots.
When run internally, the pipes must be either metal, or braided, with screw fixing ends (which means no jubilee clips) or covered with metal boxing. There must be an approved fire extinguisher & a fuel shut off device (apparently the ign switch is ok with injection), both within easy reach of the driver whilst in their seat.
For some reason, any rally cars entered in international rallys must have external fuel lines.
You are correct, it doesnt match the blue book due to not having a box over the pump, although fully aware of that regulation my car is not log booked in any fashion nor used in any true form of motorsport, its a toy. Normal driving is what i use my other 2 cars for lol. I do have a box made for it, again look at the date of the pic lol lol lol (that was the weekend it rolled out of cp's barn many moons ago)
The ignition controls the pump as does the complete power cut off key placed on the battery live which are both within reach of the driver. Accompanied by an extinguisher carried in the car easily reached by the passenger and driver.
All pro-race teams have foam tanks & have to keep very accurate fueling records, and even they end up running out of fuel.....
Do you have to prime your setup & bleed it?
Im sure pro-race teams are very good at keeping accurate fuel records. However when you don't have lots of cash to throw at a car you make do with what you can.
A good friend of mine sprints a Formula Vauxhall Lotus that has a foam filled bag tank. The only way that he can tell how much fuel is in the car is to pump all the fuel out, measure it and then put it back in. He also runs the same swirl-pot setup. Others just use a big stick to dip in the tank. However neither of these methods are that practical for me. As said before I will look in other extra options if the swirl-pot arrangment does not fix the problem.
As you can see from the picture the engine isn't even back in the car yet. But once it is I will run up the rear pump to fill the swirl-pot and check all the connections. Then I will run up the front pump and check all the connections there as well. Does that answer your question?
Are these any good !?!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GOODRIDGE-600-BRAKE-HOSE-FITTINGS-NOVA-CORSA-RALLY_W0QQitemZ120113654343QQihZ002QQcategoryZ1040 4QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Ashtal, being as im lazy and CBA to fit my internal fuel lines, i have 2 3metre rolls of high pressure stainless steel fuel line left over, never been used.
cost me ?38 per roll with ?4.95 postage, yours for ?80 posted if you want them? cost me ?86.80 all in all, just checked lol
Ashtal, being as im lazy and CBA to fit my internal fuel lines, i have 2 3metre rolls of high pressure stainless steel fuel line left over, never been used.
cost me ?38 per roll with ?4.95 postage, yours for ?80 posted if you want them? cost me ?86.80 all in all, just checked lol
Would love to mate but need to cut a few corners to see if i can make it to pv. Sadly fuel pipe is one of them, normal pipe will have to do until after pv. :(
cheers anyway.
Would love to mate but need to cut a few corners to see if i can make it to pv. Sadly fuel pipe is one of them, normal pipe will have to do until after pv. :(
cheers anyway.
no worries matey, let me know if you want tho, can bring to PV or post out to you or something lol
ben lee
03-05-07, 11:30 PM
blocikng off 1 pipe and only useing 1 with a t piece wount that reduse the brakeing effort to the rear breaks?
blocikng off 1 pipe and only useing 1 with a t piece wount that reduse the brakeing effort to the rear breaks?
Im told not mate.
When to pirtek today and they can sort out all thew bits i need, so will be making a shopping list up !
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