Global Warming

[Jack]

Did anybody watch the program on C4 this evening about Global Warming?

Food for thought...

[Philsutton]

no but looking at what it said about it its exactly what ive been saying for ages. Not sure how tax us on our cars can reduce the radiation of the sun but then again the goverment knows best

[dannyb]

I missed it, can I have a brief synopsis please?

[Ash]

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3535/dsc00466ey7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Two ducks swimming in a puddle on the pavement last week. If that isin't a sign of global warming then i don't know what is.

http://www.howies.co.uk/content.php?xSecId=8
http://www.howies.co.uk/content.php?xSecId=17

[Jack]

Basically global warming is fcuk all to do with carbon emissions; mankind is once again mistakenly thinking he has control over something way over his head. The heating and cooling of the planet is caused by the sun, and it goes through a regular cycle of cooling and warming - the ice caps also regularly shrink and grow. There's nowt we can do about it.

Carbon dioxide is a byproduct of the earth warming up, not the cause of it - even the sea emits CO2 when its heated up. The atmosphere is something like 0.04% CO2, of that miniscule amount, 1% is caused by human action.

It all has a very political agenda as well, much of it in this country was to do with Thatcher wanting to ween the country off coal power to negate the miner's strikes.

Incidentally, a catalytic converter, whilst reducing CO2, actually increases a cars output of Nitrous Oxide which is far more damaging to the atmosphere than CO2. They also take t least about 10 miles to warm up to a fully functioning state, and cause an engine to burn more fuel. I'll be buying a decat then lol

[F188CHG]

dose it not cause more C02 making the cat in the 1st place? lol

[Jack]

Irrelevant, CO2 has no effect on global warming :p

Might have to nip across to CCUK to see if there's a thread on there about it. There's a handful of hippy environmentalists on there who recently bashed people for getting decats, wonder what they will have made of last nights program lol

[wisewood]

I was fascinated by it. Got in from college at about ten to nine, absolutely shattered, falling asleep... couldnt pull myself away from it though.

I've always been a bit dubious about the whole co2 thing being our fault. The thing is though, you cant just take it on face value, you dont know the science behind the science that these guys are now showing you. Could be that they manipulated a few details here and there, or ommited great big chunks of information that would negate their arguement.

Still, even if they are right, it doesn't resolve the problem that we are using up all our fossil fuels and will need to switch to renewable energy anyway.

I say make EVERYTHING nuclear. Cars, phones, houses... everything.

[Stuart]

Ive not "beliveid" in GW for a long time... well atleast not the whole "man is to blame" as how the hell do you explain the last ice age? and the rapid death of the dinosaurs? lol

Its annoying working in the automotive industray at the cutting edge of emissions to see the new regs coming in that essentially want the whole concept of an engine redesigning to suit (but weve had the same design for 100 years and not needed to change lol)

as said NoX is the biggest problem now as its a very nasty gas that really does make minging acid rain lol.


in short buy V8's that run on carbs lol

[Matt2107]

I agree with the earth cycle theory.

TBH we'll either survive it or not.... it's called Evolution.

[Stuart]

hopefully the stupid people (usually northerners :p ) will get trapped in ice and the glorious south will have a kick ass ski resort :D

[Matt2107]

hopefully the stupid people (usually northerners :p ) will get trapped in ice and the glorious south will have a kick ass ski resort :D

Ebay opportunity here... tennis rackets as snow shoes.

All the skinny people will probably die off.

[Stuart]

see its good to be a fatty :), plus natural insulation ;)

[wisewood]

Because as a race humans now believe they've mastered technology and our fate is in our own hands scientists reckon they can figure it all out and solve everything. It's bull****. They don't even understand everything on this planet, let alone the forces acting on it from outside. To assume they know what is to blame based on a graph is ridiculous.

[BigStan]

WOW ! You learn something new everyday ! :thumb:

[Matt2107]

They should concerntrate on more important things..... like understanding women, setting up colonies on other planets and tackling imigration.

[Jack]

To assume they know what is to blame based on a graph is ridiculous.
But thats how science works, by plotting results on graphs to prove theories lol

You have to admit though, the correlation of sun activity to global temperature fits together nicely... whilst CO2 emissions follow on behind the temperature changes. The evidence given does back up their hypothesis nicely, and contradicts the "carbon fcuks the planet" argument.

I do agree we have to stop using fossil fuels, its just the hippies have totally wrong reasoning for it (I did like how they insinuated most modern "environmentalists" are ex- peace loving hippies from the cold war who, when the wall fell, suddenly had nothing to sit around and mope about so needed a new cause lol). Nuclear all the way :D

[Matt2107]

I can understand spending loads of money on researching more efficient means of energy... that's what they should be doing really.

Making energy more efficient and affordable.

[wisewood]

Agreed. They bleated on about how they're expecting africa not to develop and to live without electricity etc - so find a way to make solar and wind power more useful and affordable.

The only reason we don't use solar power is because it doesnt give us enough energy with the current means of converting the light into energy. Research ways to make the energy collection more efficient.

Give me a grant for a billion quid and i'll bet you i could come up with something. How hard can it be. Just stop spunking all the grant money on pointless things and spend time actually doing research and testing ideas.

[Matt2107]

My gf was given an energy saving light bulb at work the other day.
Apparently anyone who works for Thame Valley Police... police men or civilians... were given one each.

We've put it in our bathroom and it's pretty good actually... comes on dim to start with then increases in intensity. Next time a bulb blows we'll be replacing it with an energy saving one.

Normal bulbs are now banned in Australia IIRC.... that's the way forward.

[wisewood]

Our house is full of energy savers. Saves money if nothing else. We had some woman come round asking us questions about energy efficiency and insulation etc, after a few minutes of questions she gave us half a dozen of them bulbs. Awesome! Free stuff.

We balance out the energy saver bulbs though, by using uber hungry halogen bulbs in teh kitchen and living room lol

[Stuart]

The gf likes to have lights on in most rooms, this does my head in but ive on the sly swapped all the bulbs in the house for energy saving ones jsut to reduce the electric bill lol.


Thing is its all well and good telling these developing countries that they have to stick to X rules about emissions but their argument is that "we" have been messing up the world for 40 years so its their turn to do it too..... a just argument imho, just because they couldnt afford V8 thirsty cars 40 years ago dosent mean they cant have them now if they want.

[wisewood]

I agree. They made this point last night too. Solar and wind power is very expensive for the amount of energy you get. The rest of the developed world can afford to bugger about like that, but they can't. So THEY should get to live with mahoosive power stations and we should be the ones coming up with funky new ideas that are expensive, but less pollutant.

[Stuart]

indeed, we had our fun times of spunking fuel up the walls, and now have to fix the issue, so why should we force these ideas on the developing countries (which tend to have greater respect for their environment anyway so would come up with better concepts than us lol)

China are going to adopt euro 3 emissions in 2008/09.... this will bring them as uptodate as 1995ish lol

[wisewood]

I think we should have a wholesale change around every 3 generations. Move the US residents to Africa... they'd slim down and stop being such smug pricks then lol.

[bump]

Our house is full of energy savers. Saves money if nothing else. We had some woman come round asking us questions about energy efficiency and insulation etc, after a few minutes of questions she gave us half a dozen of them bulbs. Awesome! Free stuff.

We balance out the energy saver bulbs though, by using uber hungry halogen bulbs in teh kitchen and living room lol

Plans are afoot by the government to weed out tungsten lighting according to my latest issue of Total Lighting (no I'm not a nerd, I have changed jobs into lighting). However turning compact florescent lamps on and off uses far more electricity than leaving them running. The local radio station are having a name and shame section on offices that leave their fluros running over night. How little they understand.

IMO tungsten will not disappear for quite some time as there isn't an acceptable replacement for every situation.

[Stuart]

^^^ a test was done on mythbusters about that.... the BIG fluro tubes do indeed use mroe energy powering up, BUT its only equivalent to being left on for something like 10 mins.
the compant bulbs were equiv to soemthing like 3 seconds lol. So it does make sense to turn them off ;)

[bump]

Depends on what exactly they were testing, I agree for Tridonic ballasts. But most firms have old ballasts in their fittings that are horrendous on start up

[wisewood]

bump - go and run some tests.

I reckon it can't POSSIBLY use more power to turn on a light than it does to run it for the 16 hours between 5pm and 9am that the lights are turned off. That would be f*cking ridiculous.

[bump]

I shall run some tests either late on the day or early next week when I've got some test bay space free.

From memory (not that great) running a 40W fluro is 0.07 amps per hour.

[Ash]

http://www.bltdirect.com/energy-saving-bulbs.php

not sure how accurate that is as they are trying to sell them, but it give a rough idea. Use LED light blubs

[mowgli]

if the world heats up, then the sea will heat up, causing the water to evaporate, causing rain but actually lowering the sea level.....
if there is loads of co2 & rain then all green plants will grow bigger & faster lowering the co2 level & soaking up the water, lowering the sea level a bit more.....
Remember noah's ark, it actually is a story about the creation of the black sea when the ice caps melted about 10000 years ago causing the sea level to rise 400ft without the help of heavy industry....
Oh and atmospheric sulphur actually cools things down causing snowy winters. They stopped power stations belching it out in the late seventies, which coincides with the last really good snowy winters.

[bump]

blt's info is very vague due to the variety of products on the market, and how the cost savings are analysed. Re-lamping has to be costed into the equation, also the burn time is more appropriate for domestic use averaged over a year.

98% of LED lamps are totally ineffective at lighting. They give the effect of lighting looking at them or on a surface very close to. The fall off is rapid, often less than metre from the lamp.

Ballast testing has begun, using Tridonic, conventional electronic and wire based. I'm also going to model the results on several different office sizes using CIBSE calculated lighting levels.

[Riggy]

lol we have a few energy savers , but they dont work that well with dimmers

[bump]

Not blown them yet?

[Lee]

Bump, im in awe of your bulb knowledge!

We have an estate of offices called green park in reading , the whole thing is powered off an enourmous wind turbine, and it does give some impression of how many of these monstrosities you'd need to power a small town, coupled to the batteries they have underground for when its not windy! Unfortunately, burning oil is in the same league as cigarrettes at the moment, they'll keep telling us how bad it is, and that we should stop, but they wont actually do feck all about it because of the mountains of duty they earn from them!!

[bump]

BT I know the place you mean, that turbine does make a nice statement. You've hit the nail right on the head, at the moment green energy is just not reliable enough for business, even for "clean" businesses. If a mass green energy policy were to go ahead now then we'd be on 3 day weeks.

[bigbened]

give me a bulb my rooms dark lol

[draper]

i blame the miners, had they been on strike longer our coal would last longer lol


on a more serious note (if ever i gave one) climate change is out of our control so funk the pension crisis and spend every minute partying !!!

[scott.parker]

Well not rying to sound big headed..i knew this already..

My dad is very much into science and buys a magazine called new scientist,they published a article about this fact around a year or go i would say.

It comes down to the fact the human life and kept records have not been on the earth long enought to log the fact that this happens.

So the gov know this and take advantage of us etc..they will do anything to take your money.

Scott

[Ash]

We have an estate of offices called green park in reading

i can almost see that from here!

I too am immpressed by bump's knowledge of blubs

[mowgli]

because we as a nation aren't industrialised any more, and are just a big warehouse then britain is green already.

I wanted a strip light in our kitchen, but the wife wanted 12 of those 50w halogen things that blow the trip out when one goes bang, plunging our house into darkness.

[ade]

bored.

I read the first 2 pages and gave up lol

That kind of sums up most peoples feelings about global warming - media overkill and too many "experts" - it's at a point now where you dont know what to believe.

The best I heard the other day is theyre to ban standard "old style" light bulbs within the next 12 months or so in favour of the new energy efficient ones (that seemed to have plummetted in price recently) - if anything they will have an impact on my leccy bill - allowing me to offset the running cost of my hot tub!

lol

[bump]

Ade, depends on how you use your lights as to the impact on the electricity bill, plus which type of compact fluorescent you have. You can increase your power consumption with them.

[lee coley]

How do they no that there wasnt a hole in o-zone layer millions of years ago?They dont!

**** happens,its a cycle,it happened to the dinosaurs millions of years ago and now its happening again,and when it does we will be dead.

[bump]

Right then,

I completed the testing of the fluro ballast combos today. The results didn't exactly surprise me on their own. Some of the other info I got from Phillips, Sylvania, Dextra, LEAX, and Hagar when combined makes for some interesting reading. I had to use info from these sources as doing particular tests was not practical when the tests have already been completed by other trusted sources.

Power consumption

Tridonic
Switching off saves 2KW per year per tube

Electronic
Switching off saves 4.5KW per year per tube

Wirewound
Switching off saves 10KW per year per tube

Small savings in electricity per tube, the average commercial fitting has 4 of these units in them and are used approximately 1 per 4 - 6 M2 (current CIBSE standard) depending upon use. For a 100M2 office that would make the power saving 200KW per year and with the least efficient, a 1000KW saving.

The main problem is that Fluro tubes take a heavy beating during switching on and off. The cycle of regularly turning them off and on reduces their lifespan by between 37% and 45% depending on manufacturer and options used.

So in short any power saving gain is far offset by the lamp lifespan reduction, with particular reference to the chemicals used within the lamp. The phosphor used in the tubes is particularly harmful to both humans and animals. Fluorescent lamps are regarded as the most dangerous to deal with from an installation and disposal point of view. 90% of the cost of a new lamp is to cover the disposal charge of the old lamp.

The most efficient method to strike a balance between power consumption and lamp life is to use a Tridonic phase 2 ballast in combination with a digital dimmer be it auto or manual control, once out of use instead of shutting the lamp off reducing it to 20% burn will ensure no shorting of life span and saves a significant proportion of power spread across even a medium sized office. For the business end the biggest saving will be realised through the reduced relamping of fittings and in turn the reduced generation of toxic chemicals.

Hope it makes some sense.

[Jack]

NERD ALERT

[bump]

Your forgetting that I get paid silly sums for doing this, plus since all is quiet at work on the designing front I had to have something to do. There'sonly so much net surfing and cofee drinking you can do.

[Jack]

lol I've made it my mission to read the Internet - all of it, sans pron* - whilst at work :D





* so about 10 pages

[mowgli]

banning the old style lightbulbs will have one major problem, nobody will be able to have a comedy cartoon style 'bright idea' because the idea will have to take about 15 seconds, flicker about a bit, and then be a dim one for the first minute.

[womble sri]

Basically global warming is fcuk all to do with carbon emissions; mankind is once again mistakenly thinking he has control over something way over his head. The heating and cooling of the planet is caused by the sun, and it goes through a regular cycle of cooling and warming - the ice caps also regularly shrink and grow. There's nowt we can do about it.

Carbon dioxide is a byproduct of the earth warming up, not the cause of it - even the sea emits CO2 when its heated up. The atmosphere is something like 0.04% CO2, of that miniscule amount, 1% is caused by human action.

It all has a very political agenda as well, much of it in this country was to do with Thatcher wanting to ween the country off coal power to negate the miner's strikes.

Incidentally, a catalytic converter, whilst reducing CO2, actually increases a cars output of Nitrous Oxide which is far more damaging to the atmosphere than CO2. They also take t least about 10 miles to warm up to a fully functioning state, and cause an engine to burn more fuel. I'll be buying a decat then lol

it pisses me off. if they where actually worried about the environment they would reduce the amount of cars on the road and the way to do that isnt by making them paymore they should provide better facilities id rather not have to drive 26 miles to work each way everyday as it costs me a bomb and the 36k nova in my sig now has 48k :mad:.

and refering to your comment Razorjack i once saw a study showing that the earths crust , over the years ,has been subdued to temperatures that vary immensly and there is a common pattern. i think its a cycle and when the **** hits the fan the world will iceage and neutralise all the fecked gases etc.... almost like a reset button

[Philsutton]

Weve never had any control over the matter, same as religion they are using it to control the masses.

There are a few reasons why i think it is happening but ive already said them time an time again, none of them are to do with cars or any form of gases.

[hendrix]

agreed phil!
One of the Physics professors who used to lecture me at uni used to get sooooo annoyed about this whole global warming issue and go off on a 30 minute rant about how its basically all b****cks and we can't do sod all to control it.

[Philsutton]

I could rant forever about it, there are so many reasons to disprove the common understanding of global warming.

[Jack]

it pisses me off. if they where actually worried about the environment they would reduce the amount of cars on the road and the way to do that isnt by making them paymore they should provide better facilities id rather not have to drive 26 miles to work each way everyday as it costs me a bomb and the 36k nova in my sig now has 48k :mad:.
Thing is though, man has a fixation with his car. Fcuk public transport. Get me a personalized chariot that takes me from my door to my desk, with me and only me in it, and still I wouldn't take it.

No matter how good pubelick transport is, or could be, I'd still prefer to take my car.

[Alex.]

My history teacher rants about global warming. I remember on Valentines Day I was chuffed that I'd been sent a rose, and he gave me a lecture about how they're dangerous and how they produce CO2 and why he didn't buy one for his wife. So that depressed my Valentines Day!
And every time he goes on about it we're all like....honestly we don't care can we move onto the Cold War please! lol

[Driver]

my dad drives a 32 v6 volvo
my mum drives a 4.4 hse range rover
i have a nova and 2 landrovers for off roading
my younger sister (15) had a Xer and a quad

screw global warming:thumb:

(oh and me and mym mum occasionally share an old 1.0 16v micra but thats irrelivant lol)

[bump]

The problem with public transport is that outside London, where is is state controlled it just doesn't work. I have only had 1 job that was vaguely feasible to get to using public transport.

[Matt2107]

My history teacher rants about global warming. I remember on Valentines Day I was chuffed that I'd been sent a rose, and he gave me a lecture about how they're dangerous and how they produce CO2 and why he didn't buy one for his wife. So that depressed my Valentines Day!
And every time he goes on about it we're all like....honestly we don't care can we move onto the Cold War please! lol

Plants produce oxygen though surely?

Well aquatic plants produce oxygen during the day but use CO2 at night.
Therefore surface flow is better for keeping your oxygen levels high and your fish happy.

:thumb:


The problem with public transport is that outside London, where is is state controlled it just doesn't work. I have only had 1 job that was vaguely feasible to get to using public transport.

For me to use public tansport to travel the 4 miles to work would probably take me over an hour and cost around ?6. I would have to catch a bus from my road into town... then a bus from town back out along a nearly parallel road.

Obviously I could cycle but it's too much effort.

[Dar]

Obviously I could cycle but it's too much effort.

Lazy bugger!!
I walk to work every day!:thumb:

[Stuart]

dar you dont count in all this lol.

plants use CO2 during the day, but emit it during the night iirc...

im going to help the world and ahve an astroturf back garden so we dont have to mow it with a mean and nasty petrol lawn mower...

[hendrix]

for me to get to work on pubelice transport it would take around 3 hours there and the same to get back and I would also have to walk around a mile.
The bus routes have all been rationalised so that the bus from my house into town takes about 30 mins instead of a 2 minute drive in the car. then I would have to get a train to Doncaster and change there to go to York. The problem being that the train into Doncaster never matches the GNER service to York so some waiting on the platform would be inevitable. Oh and it would cost me around 30 quid per day instead of the 8ish I spend on fuel lol
Spose it doesnt help working 50 miles away!

Anyways this carbon cr*p causing global warming is just that. CR*P!!!!!

[hendrix]

also take a look at a previous post....
http://www.novaload.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70133

[Alex]

you lot are so off the mark it is unbelievable. Surely you saw my prediction a year or so back?

Ok 100 years ago, there was less pollution. There also were more sea going "privateers". Pollution goes down with higher numbers of pirates. FACT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/alexmachell/pirates.gif

This is SCIENCE people

[draper]

^^ Fpmsl

[Philsutton]

cant believe the pirates are decreasing that rapidly

[mowgli]

I believe we are entering what will be known, in future generations, as 'the Moan Age'