View Full Version : Track Nova chassis and Suspension set-up
Ok here goes, so bare with me. I've gathered together most of the main parts to start putting together my occasional trackday weapon.
Car at the moment is XE redtop running approx. 160-170 horses.
I've already got competition mounts, Koni sports suspension, 256mm drilled brake kit with greenstuffs, and running Gsi rims on 195/45's. It all bolted to a beauty on a 1l life in 'fade' bluelol engine bay was welded up competently prior to fitment. I had 'fun' in it at the 'Ring' in May this year with this spec. (less mounts), but now the Nova bug is starting to take over:thumb: and next May is only around the corner:eek:
I've got myself an ex rally Gartac bolt in cage which has more points on it than a hedgehog:D I intend to pick up the rear turrets more substantially with the cage as i've just got my Avo coilovers and feel that the extra stresses at the rear turret top could cause cracking of the thin skins. The interior is all going bar the dials, switches and heater for the front screen.
Question to those with coilovers and track experience - Is it worth the agro in welding in another plate on top of the turret shock absorber pick-up point and seam welding around the turret sides? Likewise for the coilover rear beam mount point, does the flimsy metal fail without more substanial strengthening:confused:
As for the front, i've got the 'Compbrake' eccentric mounts that look like the front turret hole is too small to take the full range of adjustment. Can I just open up the turret hole:confused:
The cage has front turret pick-up bars too, was wondering if the top of the turret needs another skin on it like the Gte has? especially if I widen the hole for the eccentrics:confused:
Final question (for now), i bough the Avo coilover kit used and was told it was bought for a Corsa Gsi. Do Avo provide different spec. spring rates dependant on the vehicle ordered for:confused: I've seen a few threads mention 300lb. front springs, is that a good starting point, or a tried and tested formula for trackday use:confused:
All help and advice greatfully recieved:cool:
Dave
nova ian
07-12-06, 09:15 AM
Sorry to be of no help, but Im at a similar stage with my trackday project so will be interested to read the replies of this topic.
I can however say that I too have been advised on using 300lb front springs for the Avos.
Ian
mikey14sr
07-12-06, 02:35 PM
stitch-weld the rear inner arches, that should be as much as needs to be done for the body (if you haven't done this to the whole shell, do it), the beam mounts should be replaced for thicker stuff, as they will bend quite easy.
Top mounts - you can enlarge the hole enough to remove the up-wards pointing lip, but I wouldn't go any further, and get the re-inforcing plates to go on the top whilst you're at it, for what they cost it's piece of mind against seeing the strut come through the bonnet, but I've only ever seen that happen on french wrc cars.
Springs for coilovers can be had from many places, 275lb is a minimum for an xe really, rears can stay as they were.
craig green
07-12-06, 02:57 PM
Ive turreted the rear of my suspension setup to make way for the coilovers & generally increase the strength in the shell. Again the shock mountings on the beam definately needs to be removed & thicker, tougher steel used.
Using the double skin plates on the fr turret, I fail to see how this can help tbh. Its not like they overhang & are tagged onto the chassis leg in anyway. They only add weight & lessen the amount of thread available for a strutbrace.
I think you can get the eccentric top mounts machined down to fit in the turret hole. Its pretty bad that compbrake havent sorted this issue tbh.
I disagree Craig. My Gsi has has the turrets strengthened and seam welded all teh way around. Its stiff as, and makes a considerable difference over a standard effort.
Also rear coilovers are not woth the hassle of turrets etc, if you are going for a track weapon. Its mainly for show imo, and it doesnt offer much (if any) advantage over shocks/springs...
ok here goes....
"Car at the moment is XE redtop running approx. 160-170 horses." - Thats finen, you dont need anymore than that even for the ring.
"Question to those with coilovers and track experience - Is it worth the agro in welding in another plate on top of the turret shock absorber pick-up point and seam welding around the turret sides? Likewise for the coilover rear beam mount point, does the flimsy metal fail without more substanial strengthening:confused: " - If you have already got your AVO's? If yes then just stitch-weld the rear, if no then just get some Bilstein cup struts with decent springs.
"As for the front, i've got the 'Compbrake' eccentric mounts that look like the front turret hole is too small to take the full range of adjustment. Can I just open up the turret hole:confused: " - "No, dont up the size of turret hole, take the mount off and put it the other way round, i.e nipple down. This allows full adjustment then, people say that it is wrong because the weight of the car is on the circlip but mine has had some real abuse and not bothered.
"The cage has front turret pick-up bars too, was wondering if the top of the turret needs another skin on it like the Gte has? especially if I widen the hole for the eccentrics:confused: " - As said dont widen the hole for eccentrics, the strut top plates aint essential but can be picked up pretty cheap so might aswell throw some on if you are welding anyway.
"Final question (for now), i bough the Avo coilover kit used and was told it was bought for a Corsa Gsi. Do Avo provide different spec. spring rates dependant on the vehicle ordered for:confused: I've seen a few threads mention 300lb. front springs, is that a good starting point, or a tried and tested formula for trackday use:confused:" - www.rallydesign.co.uk (http://www.rallydesign.co.uk) sell custom springs you want 2 1/4" for front and 1.9" for rear IIRC. 300lb for fronts and anywhere from 150-200lb for rear, length depends on where your wheels sit.
Hope that is of some help to you matey
Chris
craig green
08-12-06, 10:55 AM
I disagree Craig. My Gsi has has the turrets strengthened and seam welded all teh way around. Its stiff as, and makes a considerable difference over a standard effort.
Also rear coilovers are not woth the hassle of turrets etc, if you are going for a track weapon. Its mainly for show imo, and it doesnt offer much (if any) advantage over shocks/springs...
My comments were regarding the turret top plates as per GTE & GSi shells. How can they make any difference to the stiffness of a shell?
I actually saw a GTE the other day where the turret had snapped off the chassis leg & it was hitting the underside of the bonnet. How would the extra skin have helped here?
Its about as usefull as a 2pence glued to the roof & wont eliminate any flex within the chassis legs or turrets.
Anyone fitting a valver (big block XE) is undoing any handling improvements to a degree anyhow. Awaits a slating:p
Craig, I was referring to the 'turret sides', ie all around them, not on top.
The top part a la GTE/Gsi is pointless.
Nothing wrong with fitting the XE for track, but the chassis mods, just need to be more dramatic than a small block.
Anyone fitting a valver (big block XE) is undoing any handling improvements to a degree anyhow. Awaits a slating:p
LOL craig, ill be looking for you next season to prove you wrong, so you wont be getting a slating from me lol I agree with the comment about the strut top ring though, its just not going to help in anyway shape or form, if the turrets going to fail, it wont be in that area!
As for the rear beam shock mounts, ive had this discussion with Dar and we cant really see the need for them to be up[rated on a tarmac track car, thats not a high stress area from a side to side point of view, all the movement is up and down from the suspension movement. Ive never seen them fail anyway, and Im not bothering on mine (although i do have another beam with this mod already carried out so ill be ok if im proved horribly wrong lol)
LOL craig, ill be looking for you next season to prove you wrong, so you wont be getting a slating from me lol I agree with the comment about the strut top ring though, its just not going to help in anyway shape or form, if the turrets going to fail, it wont be in that area!
right, just to clear this up, i got into a huge arguement at work about these stut top plates, regarding what to do with them (pictured below):
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j181/mikenova/PICT0131.jpg
we we're prepping up a nova shell for super 1600 rallying, and the whole point of these it to run a bead of weld THE ENTIRE OUTER & INNER DIAMETER as well as seam weld the bay and strut top area. These plates, if fitted correctly will help reduce the shock coming through the shell upon a fresh air drop or harsh jump like this where the front end slammed down into the floor:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j181/mikenova/picture9_large-1.jpg
Mike
Totally agree, but if that ever happened at Combe id be having serious words with the dude who was responsible for the surface upkeep lol
Note my comment 'for a tarmac track car'. Rallying is a completely different kettle of fish!!
Totally agree, but if that ever happened at Combe id be having serious words with the dude who was responsible for the surface upkeep lol
lmfao!!!
Note my comment 'for a tarmac track car'. Rallying is a completely different kettle of fish!!
yeah just read that!! Do'h!! Well, in this pic you can see just how much seam welding a 106 GTi shell needs lol as these are quite strong little shells, but the strut top plates we fit to these are over 8mm thick, where as my Chris Astley ones on the nova are only about 1mm lol
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j181/mikenova/picture5.jpg
Anyone fitting a valver (big block XE) is undoing any handling improvements to a degree anyhow. Awaits a slating:p
Stop being a retard!! Watch video's floating around from big blocks and tell me they dont handle. The only way that a small block will be better is with the same mods plus at least ?2k thrown at the engine/box
Chris
Stop being a retard!! Watch video's floating around from big blocks and tell me they dont handle. The only way that a small block will be better is with the same mods plus at least ?2k thrown at the engine/box
Chris
hes right to an extent, your adding a load of extra weight on the front end of the chassis so yes he could be correct
but anyhow, i cant moan as im XE ing my nova at the min lol
but people saying a big block nova doesnt handle deserve a shoeing. Maybe a big block nova doesnt handle compared with a grpA tarmac car, or a small block doesnt handle well compared with a decent big block.
Beasties nova is a turbo (more weight than an XE) with diff, no coilovers, no fancy top mounts, half leather/alacantra interior, 16's and I have seen him/car drive the pants off much 'better handling' cars.
but people saying a big block nova doesnt handle deserve a shoeing. Maybe a big block nova doesnt handle compared with a grpA tarmac car, or a small block doesnt handle well compared with a decent big block.
Beasties nova is a turbo (more weight than an XE) with diff, no coilovers, no fancy top mounts, half leather/alacantra interior, 16's and I have seen him/car drive the pants off much 'better handling' cars.
then that boils down to the driver not the car then
*off topic now*
To summarise then..........make it up as I go along..............
If I can dig out those questions with all positive answers, i'll do them, 50/50, if I think it makes sense, for those wouldn't bother answers...well then I won't wast my time.
My personal opinion from a structural point of view is that the top strut mounts could do with being stronger on the puny 1litre shells, and strenghtening here would be most benefical when a strut brace is used, hence passing vertical spring load to the opposite turret which on cornering is under considerably less load/stress....right?
I'll probaby strengthen up the rear beam damper mount points, but won't go wild.
Does any body know what spring rates the AVO Corsa Gsi kit comes with as standard, or an AVO agent/contact who can help?
Don't think i'll be trying to do a 106 type jump on track with mine, just not my cup'o'tee:D
As for XE's don't handle, well my 1 litre 'life' didn't have enough power to make getting around a corner difficult, at least an XE gives you you something to think about. Mines reasonable, but Sh&te old concrete tyres and wa&k camber doesn't make things any easier. I'll be picking up my ATB soon and a shiney newish set of A539's should make some improvements for me.
I'll judge how poor it handles when i'm on track v. some XE and non-XE weaponry to compare it with.
Cheers for advice.
Anyone know where the best place/site (with link) to get an AVO spring collar spanner, replacement dust caps and front shock damper adjustment tool. My 2nd hand ones came without.
Cheers,
Dave.
michelinman
09-12-06, 10:16 AM
Try avouk.com - I'm in the process of pricing up their fully adjustable coilover kit : http://www.avouk.com/pm/4 for my valver. I too have fitted Astley's top strut tops and seam welding the whole shell. You can see my WIP on jov (http://www.justopelvauxhall.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4067).
This project is destined for track days and navigation road rallies. She has an FIA approved cage and when funds permit will be getting FIA approved everything else so maybe I can stage rally her some day.
I have found this thread very interesting and agree with Dabsy about the positive answers in the thread. Everyone has a different opinion about everything and in the case of driving fast no matter how good you think your setup is, until you throw in the uncertainty of the human element (i.e. the infinite number of different driving styles) every car will handle and drive differently depending on who is driving it.
I do not know if I can make my heavy valver go round a track quicker than a small block. I cannot even make the claim that I will be able to be competitive - BUT I can say that I will give it a damn good go and even if I understeer at every corner, I am sure that doing it in my 2.0 16v will be good fun!!! Until I get peeed off, then I might try a 1600 16v!!! LOL!!!
Just FYI for Dabsy, I hope to put 300lb fronts and 200lb rears on mine for use with the fully adjustable kit. I did not know about strengthening the rear beam and I probably will, since it does make good sense for a rally car. I will also be filling in the inner diameter welds of my strut tops now!!!
Michelinan,
What are these astley top strut plates and where do you get them from? How much are they?
Regards,
Dave.
michelinman
10-12-06, 12:17 PM
Michelinan,
What are these astley top strut plates and where do you get them from? How much are they?
Regards,
Dave.
Here you go lad (they cost 15 snoops + delivery - I was able to get the hockley style chassis plating kit and a couple of other items along with the strut tops in one delivery consignment (8ish quid)
http://www.chrisastleymotorsport.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=53&osCsid=819509fe9b67c850267e89016a557cbf
I will also be filling in the inner diameter welds of my strut tops now!!!
top man :thumb:
yeah chris astley does all the comp parts for XE conversion including the HH strengthening kit but for half the price lol
OK, so finally got around to looking over these 2nd hand AVO coilovers I bought off egay and :eek: :cry:
Not quite the condition that I was lead to believe, 1 of the front dampers is leaking and the strut rod is slightly pitted, 1 of the rear dampers is so sloppy even when turning the adjuster up to max makes bugger all difference, my 15 year old 1litre Nove 'life' dampers had more resistance:mad:
Can anyone let me know the costs that AVO charge for there refurbs on these, and also do they just charge a standard cost and replace what is required, as much info. as poss. if you don't mind.
Cheers,
A peed off Dave:mad:
I think its about ?40 per damper ?! a mate recently sent his back to Avo and ended up getting repaired under warrenty, even tho he bought them second hand. Give them a bell & see what they say.
Rich
craig green
02-02-07, 03:46 PM
Hope its going well? Just re-read the thread, I cant beleive how easy it is to get peeps backs up when it comes to opinions on big blocks & handling.
I got my AVOs directly from them, Ive found them easy & quick to deal with.
tom reid
02-02-07, 06:55 PM
Just to add to the mix, I wouldn't even fit 300lb springs on the front, too soft,
but a stiff car suits my driving style,maybe fit 300's on the rear though.
A track car and a TARMAC rally car are very similiar beasts.
You might find that you will want different spring/damper rates depending on what you are doing - road/track.
Feel free to slag/slate/agree
mikey14sr
02-02-07, 07:03 PM
The average spring for a coilover costs about ?20, I say Start with 300lb on the front and see how it goes.
Thanks guys.
Emailed AVO who said it's an average of ?45+VAT for refurb, but depends on what needs doing :(
I think they are the latest type with uprated internal seals, they came with red dust caps (altough you can fit then to the old models) and the rear dampers have purple bushes in. How else can you tell old Avo's from new?
As for spring rates i'll go for 300lb springs on the front for now, and leave the 150's on the back until i'm fully stripped out and see how that feels.
As for road/track usage, i'm ok with a toughish ride for the road, but have done a few thousand as I use to commute to work, but that's only 10 mins away. I'll see how they feel. The Koni sport kit I have is fairly comfy on low damper setting, so maybe i'm not ready for full track feel on the road yet.
Not really sure what to do with the Nova at the moment as I still want to get my Integrale on the road after 3 years storage, so I may still end up just taking the Nova off the road altogether and towing it to tracks. I only live 10 mins from Donny:D
Cheers, Dave.
Don't know how far you have got with your car but I thought I would give you some extra info. Mines a sprint car that I also take to track days. There are some videos here (http://www.daxtek.co.uk/) which should give you an idea of what to expect handling wise.
Once your cage is in the car don't forget to tag it in to the A&B pillars.
Front & rear strut braces make a big difference.
I relocated my battery to the rear of the car to get some weight shifted off of the front.
Your spot on with the 300lb/150lb springs for the AVO's to start with. I started with this setup and then went to 300lb/200lb. With the 150lb rear springs you will notice that the rear outside corner will squat and will cause the front inside wheel to lift and lose traction. However its only really evedent when your cornering really hard.
The eccentric top mounts go with the flat piece on the top. Don't alter your turret tops or machine the mount.
Its up to you on the suspension mount strengthing but I haven't done it at all and after over 3 years of abuse mine is not showing any sign of damage. Its a track car so the extra strength is not needed. If it was a rally car it would be a completly different story altogether.
I think you have said that you already have a LSD :thumb:
I would also get some nice tyres for it as well. Yoko A048's or Toyo R888's they have a huge difference. Your best of with 15" wheels because of the tyre choices.
Once you have the suspension height all sorted don't forget to set your caster/camber and then get the tracking set etc.
Once all that is done you can start thinking about putting on lighter panels and polycarbinate windows to make the whole package even lighter.
craig green
05-02-07, 02:41 PM
Good advice Dar!
Cheers Dar,
Yep, i've watched the footage a few times now, thats what I want mine to handle like. Once i've got it to handle the power it's putting out now i'll think about adding some further ponies.
I've also been having a good scout around the restoration projects, and and the reshell that you are helpin out with at the mo. is sort of the level I want to do on mine. Problem is that i'm using it as a daily runner currently, but as soon as the evenings are light enough after work it'll be pedal power for me, and the fun will begin.
The cage I have is a pukka 'Gatrac' bolt in with all the top front window, A and B pillar attachment points already there. It came from a friends rally Nova, as he replaced with a SD triangulated weld in. Mine comes with integral rear brace, but no rear cross brace, may put one in when it's fitted. Also has front strut attachments bars that i'm going to weld onto the top strut as his is on the SD cage.
Will make a front brace when it's all in place.
For costs reasons at the mo. (refurb comes first) i'll stick with the rear 150's they came with. If I can do a deal on the front and rears may go straight to the 200's on the rear
Yeah, i've sussed the top mounts, the I/D of the 2 1/4" coil fits snugly on the O/D of the spheric housing. Problem is that this reduces the installed height when compared with the original Nova top mount that you take off! What height 300lb front springs did you order. the 250's on mine are 7"?
Is your Nova shell a gte/gsi? as I was going to include the front turret plates from Chris Astley as a strenthening mod.
ATB of course:D
Yep, will be gettin the r888's, a friend of mine can get them at a great price. Front's as a minimum to start off with.
What Camber/castor/toe settings have you used on yours. May as well start there and see if it agrees with my style;)
Yeah.... and then get carried away like Oli?Big cheers to 'Nova Neil' for getting me started, he basically built the car for me before last May 06's 'Ring' trip. Unfortunately I won't be going to this years July trip because of family commitments:cry:
Will be doing the Coombe and donny dates in early spring though:)
Dave.
I've got the Avos back fully refurbed and made a start on fitting the eccentric top mounts. Problem is that the mount does not seem to seat properly with the various bushes that came with the mount. So....
Have I been supplied the wrong bushes in the mount kit....?
Have I fitted them incorrectly for some reason that is over my head....?
I've used the aluminium type cup that came on the 2nd hand avo's that seems to be a nice place for the red rubber seal to sit, but when I put the eccentric mount on the aluminim cup rides up the damper rod and does not seat firmly.
Hope this makes sense, i've taken some pics which i'll try to explain what the problem is if no one can make snese of the above.
Anyone have a close up piccy of there front coilovers with eccentrics that they could post up for me to have a look at?
Cheers,
Dave.
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