R1 Carbs?

[db_1.2]

Im not thinking of buying R1 carbs or anything, i was just thinking what is the big fasination about the R1 carbs?

For example:

c20xe with t45's
c20xe with R1 carbs

What would be better and why? Im guessing the R1 carbs should be for 250 quid a pop! (Apperently anyway!)

So yeh why are they and different from runnging twin carbs?

[BIGS]

because its been proven they give 197 bhp on a standerd c20xe. maybe thats why. I can give more info later what there like my r1 carbs will be on my car in a few weeks well i hope.

[db_1.2]

Cool get some pics up Lol :thumb:

[db_1.2]

Yeh but arnt SBD throttle bodies supposed to give upto 200 bhp?

[novamadman]

because its been proven they give 197 bhp on a standerd c20xe. maybe thats why. I can give more info later what there like my r1 carbs will be on my car in a few weeks well i hope.

we bought a wee nova rally car about a year ago, there ws 3 boxes of spares with it which we never looked at just put in corner of loft in garage. Anyway needed a starter motor the other night so decided might as well try these boxes and what ws at the bottom of one of them, a set of bike carbs in mint conditon lol

could be going on the rally car soon - 1400 8v might be a bit much tho

shane

[db_1.2]

Hmmm wanna sell them? :p Seriously!!!

[Stuart]

i fail to see how JUST bike carbs/TB's on their own can get a 2.0 16V to near 200bhp....... you need cams, pistons to suit cams, mild head work and a decent exhaust.... never mind hey you keep on beliving what your told down the pub ;)


Yes bike carbs are cheaper to buy than Weber's BUT youve got the **** ache of getting an inlet made (bogg bros seem to be the only place at the moment) then get them setup on the car and most normal RR's cant really cope..

[John]

stuart, i thought the sbd 208 kit was so called because it makes 208bhp out of the box? A lad at work had the 208 kit fitted to what was a standard xe, Although fully re built, and once the mbe ecu had been set up for the lambda, he took it down to sbd to have it fully mapped and set up and it made 207 on the rollers on it's first session. He later added sbd pistons, cams, head work, verniers and had it re mapped to make 238.
I know saloony of pvg has r1s on his xe, and recently had it set up, apparently it made too much power to keep it in the rollers! Would have been interesting to see what it actually produced.
I think the fascination with them is definately the price for bhp, but the back up to go with them is poor imo. Wheras bodies or carbs may be dearer, but the wealth of knowledge to go with them is immense.

[Adam]

I think Olly hewitt made about 184bhp on his old nova, with QED throttle bodies, and a custom made Ashley exhaust.
Apart from that i think the engine was pretty standard, apart from ARP bolts etc.

So i dont see how a set of carbs will give 197bhp tbh.

[mikey14sr]

bike carbs meter the fuel out better than T40's, mainly due to not having accelerator pump jets flooding fuel in when you open the throttle.
I will be fitting 600/750 size carbs to my 14se engine, most 600's have around 34-36mm chokes which is more than enough for my engine and cam.

[Stuart]

imho you cannot compare bike carbs to weber carbs.... you can only "fairly" compare them to TB's.....

[pul16v]

and why would that be stuart the onlt things thay have in common are butterflies so how are they compareable at all really ???

[Adam]

I guess because they are newer technology than webers.
Webers are 1970/80s stuff.

[mikey14sr]

imho you cannot compare bike carbs to weber carbs.... you can only "fairly" compare them to TB's.....

a carb is a carb, a throttle body is,,,, er, a throttle body?

[pul16v]

thats my point if you carnt compare the r1 mikuni's to the webbers how is it fair to compair a carburator to

quote
er, a throttle body ?

[draper]

so are bike carbs worth it ?

if you was building a quick XE would throttle bodies still be better than bike carbs ?

[mikey14sr]

so are bike carbs worth it ?

if you was building a quick XE would throttle bodies still be better than bike carbs ?

depends what you want to spend and what fuel comsumption you can put up with, B/C's can be sorted out for under ?300, proper T/B's and new ecu etc can cost into the thousands for a fully mapable set up, but the T/B's will give better mpg when caining it.

[draper]

not really bothered about fuel consumption to be honest - ill get shares in shell !!

more bothered about power as ill only be caning it at circuits and strips *cough cough*;)

[db_1.2]

Hold on a sec, how is having 4 bike carbs on an inlet manifold any different from having t40's/45's/48's ?

[Stuart]

naff all difference for say peak stuff, but you do get smoother fuelling with the bike carbs (they are technically glorifed SU carbs lmao)....


i recon the NET effect, eg being a pikey getting bike carbs cheap and then the ballache of the manifold and setup will cost similar - same as a normal T40/45 approach with better value setup.... meh

[Mike]

i fail to see how JUST bike carbs/TB's on their own can get a 2.0 16V to near 200bhp....... you need cams, pistons to suit cams, mild head work and a decent exhaust.... never mind hey you keep on beliving what your told down the pub ;)

Yes bike carbs are cheaper to buy than Weber's BUT youve got the **** ache of getting an inlet made (bogg bros seem to be the only place at the moment) then get them setup on the car and most normal RR's cant really cope..

First paragraph = wrong. Where i used to work, jam-motorsport, me and the owner Mark Gamble built a 1.4 8v 106 with R1 carbs (cheaper alternative to throttle bodies) the was also a Piper filter, Pug sport system (made by Magnex but marketed by Pug) and a Ashley manifold, the 1.4 made 148bhp on Shenpars Dyno in Derby :thumb:

Second Paragraph = Wrong again. Martin Bowyer (Bowyer Power) of Hertfordshire will & can make inlet manifolds for these, along with Shenpar race engines in Derby to n ame but a few. :thumb:

Mark (owner of JAM motosport) paid about ?800+ for supply, fit and setup of R1 carbs to a 1400 8v Pug. :thumb:

[Mike]

imho you cannot compare bike carbs to weber carbs.... you can only "fairly" compare them to TB's.....

Correct Stuart, bike carbs are and will always be compared to Throttle Bodies when put on car. Why?? Who knows, it literally is "just the way it is" lol lol

[Stuart]

First paragraph = wrong. Where i used to work, jam-motorsport, me and the owner Mark Gamble built a 1.4 8v 106 with R1 carbs (cheaper alternative to throttle bodies) the was also a Piper filter, Pug sport system (made by Magnex but marketed by Pug) and a Ashley manifold, the 1.4 made 148bhp on Shenpars Dyno in Derby :thumb:

Second Paragraph = Wrong again. Martin Bowyer (Bowyer Power) of Hertfordshire will & can make inlet manifolds for these, along with Shenpar race engines in Derby to n ame but a few. :thumb:

Mark (owner of JAM motosport) paid about ?800+ for supply, fit and setup of R1 carbs to a 1400 8v Pug. :thumb:


wow 3 places that can supply manifolds.... OHHHHHHHHHHH ahhhhhh magic. lol

also do you not belive that dynos can be "out" ;)

having seen many many XE's that claim a 200bhp then either run a gash time at pod/have very few mods to actually back up the claim would imply that you require (benchmark engine being chris T's old one on carbs)
Head work
Cams
Pistons to suit
Revs
Exhaust (nothing fancy just a good tubular one)
and Carbs/TB's etc...

it did 199bhp on the hottest day of the year a good few years back and that will be my benchmark as its performance near as damn it matches the power claims..

Bear in mind that a 106 engine has nearly the most restrictive inlet going.. similar to the gm 1.4/1.6 16v engines that once you put a simple breathing mod on like carbs/tb's you unleash a shed load of power.. whereas the 2.0 simply wont unlock that much instantly without other mods being needed.

[Mike]

wow 3 places that can supply manifolds.... OHHHHHHHHHHH ahhhhhh magic. lol

also do you not belive that dynos can be "out" ;)


To name but a few :roll: fool lol Didnt you read it properly Stu???

Dynos are more accurate then a rolling road, trust me :thumb:

[Stuart]

Dynos are more accurate then a rolling road, trust me :thumb:


:eek: NEVER :p......... :roll: :roll: :roll:

so thats why i calibrate engines on a dyno rahter than a RR..... feck me i never knew why.....

[valvercorsa]

how do peoples

now lets stop all the arguing

i have a nova 2.0 16v redtop running bike carbs.

before r1 carbs engine was kicking out 162bhp 146lbt

after r1 carbs 186bhp and 162lbt

the reason r1 carbs are better than twin 40's carbs are as follows

1. dont need setting up every 6 months

2. better on fuel

3. and look the dogs b*****Ks

[Mike]

So why moan at me when your contradicting yourself by first saying A) also do you not belive that dynos can be "out" ;), and then by saying B) :eek: NEVER :p......... :roll: :roll: :roll:

so thats why i calibrate engines on a dyno rahter than a RR..... feck me i never knew why.....

Make your mind up sonny jim.

[Stuart]

you can force any number you want from a dyno... i wasnt contradicting myself as i dont pull numbers from the dyno as such (more the difference before/after than peak final numbers which works on a way out dyno ;) ).. i guess sarcasim dosent work on the net lol..


Oh and "ValverCorsa" Webers DO NOT need setting up ever 6 months.... its only if they have bent spindles/been setup by a monkey in the first palce that they will need attention on a regular basis lol.

also its been proven that T40's on a 2.0 XE givs no gain in peak power but it does give gains midrange... if you comapre bike carbs on a 2.0 you mightaswell compare them to T45's if you want to keep it a carb v carb fight lol

[SRlew]

whats the difference between a dyno and a RR?

never needed to know untill now.

[Stuart]

a dyno can be known as a RR. but in this case a dyno is a water or eddy braked device that you bolt the engine to in a room and then run it on that. Can get better cooling/exhuast etc on there but more importantly you ondt have to fanny about guessing transmission and tyre losses.

a RR you should know you take a car and put it on there and away you go but with estimates on things like tyre and trasmission losses

[SRlew]

ah nice one. cheers stu!

[valvercorsa]

yep but u cannot compare twin 45 weber carbs to r1 carbs becos r1 carbs are 40mm. i understand where you are coming from with the webers been set up but there aint very many places that can set them up right round here and if your driving it hard they do tend to go off song abit.

[Stuart]

yep but u cannot compare twin 45 weber carbs to r1 carbs becos r1 carbs are 40mm. i understand where you are coming from with the webers been set up but there aint very many places that can set them up right round here and if your driving it hard they do tend to go off song abit.


best tell dan that then............. oh hang on he managed to abuse the living daylights out of his carbs for 3 years without need for a huge tune up (idle settings needed a tweek and that was it)

carbs drifting out of tune is a bit of an urban myth passed on by muppets who either don ge tthem setup at all or ones that go to an amature RR who cant set them up correctly.

[mikey14sr]

yep but u cannot compare twin 45 weber carbs to r1 carbs becos r1 carbs are 40mm. i understand where you are coming from with the webers been set up but there aint very many places that can set them up right round here and if your driving it hard they do tend to go off song abit.

most people running T45's will probably only have 40mm chokes fitteed to them