View Full Version : High Horse ?
Ok, dont post much on here and now going to sound like a moaning old git :)
But i keep seeing more and more posts of cars for sale and cars wanted, or people posting pics of cars that are noted on the V5 form as something completly differant to what it actually is, basically engines being upgraded and not recorded.
Now this is technically against the law and pee's me of that i declare all my mods and pay hard earned cash whilst some muppet decide to drive around in a car that if it even has insurance is only good for wiping their ****s with?
Just think that as a site, this should not be encouraged, as those of us who have done everything by the book end up out of pocket because of people like this, premiums go up due to idiots doing stuff like this.
Dare i say anyone advertising like that should have thier advert withdrawn. Maybe harsh but having had first hand experiance of someone driving into me with invalid insurance it gets my back up.
Sorry for the boring topic but needed to write something, Rant over LOL :thumb:
Discuss.....
basically engines being upgraded and not recorded
Indeed this illegal, its called Fruad, or Obtaing goods or services via decption. As in obtaining car insurance at a discounted price due to the DVLA not being aware.
Many moons ago when i worked at egg.com, a few cases like this went to court, the car owners were fined ?1k each, credited black listed (due to fraud) and had there cars crushed FOC by West Mercia Police.
All 3 of them narroly, and i mean narrowly escaped a prision sentence!
Now, if people on this site still think there smart, carry on with dodgy insurance, but be aware that crime stoppers are presently offering ?50 reward for info leading to an arrest for this kind of fraud. So now lets see who admits to having dodgy insurance ehhh :thumb: lol
Am I right in thinking people don't record engine conversions on all documents to avoid the higher road tax? I didn't realise this invalidated the insurance too... (I haven't done it, just interested :p)
Am I right in thinking people don't record engine conversions on all documents to avoid the higher road tax? I didn't realise this invalidated the insurance too... (I haven't done it, just interested :p)
Correct :thumb:
I forgot about the tax element. I bet if they got house contents insurance they wouldn't say they have a 14" B&W telly whilst watching their 40" plazma LOL mind you if they are that tight and prepared to break the law house insurance probably isn't an issue.
Also in a claim they would end up with a base 1.2 model as thats what its insured as, but if checked they will get naff all. Not worth it really, especially if its stolen.
Lucky Luke!
18-07-06, 12:30 PM
I'm ashamed to say that i have hit someone when i didnt have insurance. Not only did i get naff all for my car but i also got banned, fined and had to pay all his expenses.
Invalid, or no insurance is not cool, and will only f*ck your life up if you get caught. So don't do it!
I'm ashamed to say that i have hit someone when i didnt have insurance. Not only did i get naff all for my car but i also got banned, fined and had to pay all his expenses.
Invalid, or no insurance is not cool, and will only f*ck your life up if you get caught. So don't do it!
Sound advice, bet it cost more than getting valid insurance would have :roll:
Sound advice, bet it cost more than getting valid insurance would have :roll:
Ditto! Beat me to it lol
You can see why people do it though as its so easily a cheatable system!!
loggyboy
18-07-06, 01:07 PM
Theres a central government fund that pays out for uninsured drivers - so dont worry to much not getting your payout if the drivers not insured.
However i still would never condone not declaring mods to dvla or Insuance Co, beacuse at the end of the day, our insurance premium tax pays for the government fund.
My only gripe with insurance is they are quick enough to take your money, and get ****y if you do the slightest thing wrong, but when it comes to paying out, you have to fight for every penny thats owed to you.
Valid point to be fair...... for now simply report the thread(s) and the rules can be updated soon
BigStan
18-07-06, 02:46 PM
Totally agree with that ! Amen
loggyboy
18-07-06, 04:50 PM
In defence of any seller selling a car that hasnt been decalred - i would assume there is no legal precidence stating that you cant sell a car that hasnt had its mods declared (assuming it has no current tax) as it would be up to the buyer to ensure that the car was correctly and legally roadworthy once it was purchased.
I understand your concerns on cars that havent been declared, but gettin all high and mighty on them cuz they are selling the car seems pointless.
yes but it dosent bode well on the site if "we" let people sell technically illegal/fraudlent vehicles..... eg tax evasion and so on
loggyboy
18-07-06, 08:10 PM
yeah i can see all admin up in court for it...:roll:
surely this could be a grey area tho - what if someone sells a car with a XE in but only says its a 1.2 merit on the book, now the seller has been driving the car on private land (with land owners permission :thumb: )
the person who drives the car decides to use the vehicle on the road - with the "dodgy" insurance policy and hits someone, do we then blame the guy who built the car ?
the people who swap the engines and dont/cant be ****d/forget to inform DVLA are not to blame, the buyer/the guy who gets caught driving it is.
and what about people trying to sell there grasstrack nova shells ? do we ban them from using a public forum just becaues some idiot might buy it and drive it down the road ?
General Baxter
18-07-06, 08:30 PM
tax has all gone strange now
1.6 16v
?62 for 6 months, ?114 for 12 months, how stange is that lol
i had a letter saying its all down to co2 now :roll:
does that meen if you put as much as alloy wheels on your nova you have to notify them?
yeah i can see all admin up in court for it...:roll:
muppet. you clearly missed the point......lol
if "we" blatantly have a bunch of cars FS here that are advertised to be documented incorrectly then "people" will have their stereotypical view of nova owners nailed further...
kinda like my opinion of you is that your a cretin. but if you didnt post so much crap then that opinon might change.. :p
does that meen if you put as much as alloy wheels on your nova you have to notify them?
thats an insurance issue. not so much the DVLA thing
General Baxter
18-07-06, 08:41 PM
thats an insurance issue. not so much the DVLA thing
in theory it does at it alters the weight of the car lol
JSeymour
18-07-06, 08:49 PM
not all number plate checks that you do on the net come through with the converted engine.
any way, do you have nothing better to do then check plates on cars with different engines to what they were made with?
he means ads that say "still registered as a 1.2" etc on a valver ad
i dont think hes got time to check the plates lol
http://www.novaload.net/forum/showthread.php?t=65512 that kind of ad
NickWalliams
18-07-06, 09:02 PM
didnt realise there were soo many lawyers on this site, some people dont bother changing the log book straight away as its hastle but the mods are still insured I have done this as has one of my mates.
i see where this is coming from and all my mods are decladred well exhust wheels and that stuff. but also i can see why some people dont due to like me not haven help or that and wanting a nice car so bending a few rules i can see both side but legal is the best way i total agree with you. all in all good point raisted. (sorry for **** spelling lads)
loggyboy
18-07-06, 10:02 PM
if "we" blatantly have a bunch of cars FS here that are advertised to be documented incorrectly then "people" will have their stereotypical view of nova owners nailed further...
kinda like my opinion of you is that your a cretin. but if you didnt post so much crap then that opinon might change.. :p
Who cares what the stereotypical view is? I dont if i did i wouldnt own a nova.
and just as i dont care what the stereotype is, i dont care you think of me as a cretin. ;)
tappingt
18-07-06, 10:03 PM
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/tappingt/DSCN0042.jpg (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/tappingt/DSCN0042.jpg)
I'am 17 and have built this pretty much from a rusty old shell. It's a 1.2 and is staying that way with no engine mods however it came to insurance recently and i suppose i wasnt 100% truthful with the mods i listed.
Backbox. (it has a straight through stainless steel system)
Body coloured bumpers. (new bumpers obviously but like the GTE they are now body coloured.
Alloys.
Lowered less than 5mm. (it is sitting at 80mm on the rear and 60mm on the front)
The problem was i didn't think of listing mods till realising the importance of it, by this time my car was almost complete. Now just have turned 17 and have insured it for ?1100 with the above mods listed. With all the work i have put into the car i wanted to at least drive it when it came to my 17th bday that making slightly lying about some of my mods seemed the move to make. surely this is understandable.
But what you have to understand is that people like yourself not being honest about what you are driving is one of the reasons your insurance policy is so high in the first place. Ok, car thieves and tax have a bigger effect, but like a stray nit in your hair, it all adds up eventually!
And if you crash it into Sir Winston Berkley the third's 150K's worth of Bently, and your insurance company finds non-declared modifications, you will instantly be declared un insured and you'll then be right up poo poo boulevard, and that few quid you saved in the first place will not by a long way balance with your huge fine and seriously elevated premiums in the future.
Cause and effect my friend. You may be lucky, but why take the risk?
These kinds of things REALLY GET ON MY WICK :mad: (prepare for an Ade rant!)
Loggyboy said
Theres a central government fund that pays out for uninsured drivers - so dont worry to much not getting your payout if the drivers not insured.
It isnt actually the government that pay it - its insurers that contribute - its a fund run by MIB and its insurance companies covering their backs. Basically if you are hit by a driver who is not insured or who has their insurance voided the MIB cover 3rd party costs only.
I work for a major car insurer and it annoys me when these posts come up - I'm 36 years old and earned my ncd the proper way (not fronting on my dads policy or non declaring my mods) paid the premiums and now I'm paying hardly anything.
However because the insurance company cannot recover the losses it passes on the costs to the customer by treating such claims as "fault". As such you lose NCD (unless protected) and in nearly all cases the "risks associated" load increases by 7.5% which means your premium goes up. Its a sh1te thing but Road traffic stats show that 35% of drivers involved in a smash that wasnt their fault will be involved in another one in 12-18 months.
Ive just dealt with about 4 complaints today on this subject alone trying to explain to our customers why their insurance increased because of a (as trhey see it) "non fault" claim. It wasnt their fault that someone hit their car and isnt covered by their company. The of the claimants were hit by "young males" who had modded cars and had taken a corner too quickly losing control and side swiping parked cars.
To quote one of our claim reports - "TP insurance refuses to pay out - assessor states car modifications not declared U/W pass to void policy from inception. Costs passed to MIB. TP insurer advised file passed to for investigation (police)"
On top of this everyones insurance goes up (hence why premiums are so high) because people dont properly cover their cars and think they can skrimp on money.
The bottom line is if you have modified your car from the standard factory specification (which 99% of all insurers will ask you and will be recorded on tape when you get a quote) and that includes alloys, bumpers, paint, exhsuat, trim (exterior and interior) and in some cases (such as kwik fit and tesco) even declaring any "graphics" such as stickers *because they make the car attractive the theives) you should declare them.
most (alloys, stickers, some trim etc) wont adjust the premium and some companies like Adrian flux actually welcome drivers with engine and body mods only adding very small increases so it pays to shop about.
The bottom line is to stop insurance premiums rising - declare your mods - that way when you crash and (god forbid you dont) kill someone, your insurance wont be voided, you wont have to shell out 50 times more dosh (which would have been picked up by your insurance company) and wont get banned/jailed.
I know a couple of people in forum sites who have had their insurance voided after accidents - and its very messy.
For reference, the average small claim costs approx ?6k. Some go up to several millions (like the guy who derailed that train when he fell asleep at the wheel).
As far as telling DVLA is concerned thats just as bad -
1 if the police pull you and check your car over (which if youre young and in a modded car will happen some time in your life) and they look under the bonnet they'll preftty much know a 1ltr showing on their records (because they have direct like with DVLA) isnt the 2ltr under the hood.
2 they will also know that your tax disc will be wrong which means they can impound your car until you prove otherwise.
3 the chances are too that when they ask you to produce your documents sometimnes that do further investigations and under Data Protection act can request information from insurance companies to check details...usually tipping insurance company off in turn.
If you buy a new car it is YOUR responsibility as the owner and registered keeper of the car to ensure that the V5 regi docs match the car description. If theuy dont then you have to get them updated.
As the DVLA site says -
"I make changes to my vehicle?
If you change the colour, engine, modify or replace the chassis/monocoque bodyshell, propulsion (fuel) type, cylinder capacity, seating capacity or weight of a goods vehicle, you must fill in the changes section on the Registration Document/Certificate. Following the introduction of graduated Vehicle Excise Duty written evidence is required to support any change, which results in the vehicle becoming subject to a lower rate of duty. For changes other than those listed on the Registration Document/Certificate, you should underline the details that have changed and write the new information next to them. Send the Registration Document/Certificate to DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
If you make a change to the vehicle that affects the rate of duty you pay on it, you must take out a new licence. If your licence (tax disc) shows the old details, you should apply for an exchange licence on form V70. If you do not have a current licence disc you should apply for one on form V10, or form V85 for a heavy goods vehicle (HGV)
If you change the model description of your car, we will need written confirmation from the manufacturer (not the dealer) or kit supplier.
Following major changes DVLA may require the vehicle to be inspected."
Rant over - declare mods! thats all there is to it.
tappingt
18-07-06, 10:55 PM
i have declared all my mods which is alot more than most 17 year olds, i have body coloured bumpers so it is not a body kit. Yes it is lowered 1cm more than what i have declared but this one cm saves me a hundred pounds.
thing is youve declared it as being lower - most insurers will marke this as suspension mods - very few will actually ask you to specify how much lower...
Its good you have and the ?1100 seems pretty reasonable - car looks good too!
womble sri
18-07-06, 11:07 PM
so is it illegal to convert a car and tell the insurance company but not the dvla? and what about mods that dramatically increase power?
SuperNova!
18-07-06, 11:28 PM
Whats Insurance? :confused: :confused: :confused:
lol
womble 0 go to dvla website and poke about. If you increase power chances are the tax will change and as such you must declare it. Unless you want your car impounded next time its pulled over...
loggyboy
19-07-06, 12:07 AM
These kinds of things REALLY GET ON MY WICK :mad: (prepare for an Ade rant!)
Loggyboy said
It isnt actually the government that pay it - its insurers that contribute - its a fund run by MIB and its insurance companies covering their backs. Basically if you are hit by a driver who is not insured or who has their insurance voided the MIB cover 3rd party costs only.
Why not read all my post then - the bit where i say
our insurance premium tax pays for the government fund.
OK it may not be a government run fund, but they were the words used to describe it to me by a solicitor.
And the way you word it makes it sound like the poor little insurance companys pay - the insurers may 'contrubute' as you say, but its our premiums that pay in the long run.
I think what everyone needs to remember is that if you want to build fast road car then you need to consider insurance into your budget. If you can't insure what you have created then you're in the wrong game.
As far as "off road cars" go, surely we cannot expect the owner to have all of the mods declared if the car is only driven around circuits and is transported on a trailer. As long as the seller states that the car is not built for road use then he/she has covered their back.
I understand that if the car is then illegally used on the road and involved in an accident the insurance premiums for everyone will go up but blaming the seller of the car is like blaming cutlery manufacturers for people being stabbed with kitchen knifes.
However, I do agree that selling a modified car that is obviously built for road use but is still registered with the DVLA and insurance as standard should not be condoned by Novaload even if it is technically legal in the eyes of the law. Novaload is a privately run site and the creators/owners can create their own rules and policies to which its members must abide.
In conclusion, might it not be an idea to create a policy that states that Novaload does not condone the sale of illegally documented road cars but each case of possible breach of policy can be looked at individually and the outcome of any investigation is inevitably decided by admin discretion?
does this mean we have to also have a disclaimer about the sale of performance cams/throttlebodies/exhausts etc as these can make people drive faster/increase chance of accident and then put premiums up ?
if you start with non-registered engine swaps where do you draw the line ?
personally i dont give a rats ass about wether people INSURE their mods etc.. but the whole dicking about with the DVLA and police isnt wise.. they can and will crush your car if all the relevant docs arent up to muster... meh lets all go crazy and do engine swaps/kill people etc and not document anything... pffft
i guess its all about being a responsible citizen and setting good examples blah blah..... or shall we go and set fire to a granny too huh
I think what everyone needs to remember is that if you want to build fast road car then you need to consider insurance into your budget. If you can't insure what you have created then you're in the wrong game.
As far as "off road cars" go, surely we cannot expect the owner to have all of the mods declared if the car is only driven around circuits and is transported on a trailer. As long as the seller states that the car is not built for road use then he/she has covered their back.
Totally agree, thats half the reason mine became a circuit car only, as I really couldnt be ****d to pay the insurance for a car i very rarely drive!
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