View Full Version : 150bhp+ from a 1.6T40?
Stanley
14-02-06, 06:40 PM
im currently in a disagreement on www.dumfriescruise.com due to claiming that a fettled 1.6 with T40's, cam, 4 branch (the lot) etc etc would kick out 150+bhp and be faster than a stock XE
anyone got any input to this?
cheers all
Lee-Gsi
14-02-06, 06:50 PM
Id say it would be pretty close to be honest mate, even 140bhp would be pretty close due to the 1.6 weighing a lot less than the XE.
Stanley
14-02-06, 06:56 PM
thas exactly my thought.
anyone can drive fast in a straight line.
i reckon a gsi with all the trimmings would take an XE on the bends. possibly on the straights too
though saying that ive never owned either lol
krobinson
14-02-06, 07:17 PM
that could be at the fly
Thats because all figures are quoted at the fly unless stated @ wheels.
Keith
Give it some rev
14-02-06, 08:13 PM
it would probably keep up with a XE but not be able to pass it, your definatly right when you say it wud be able 2 leave the XE standing when it comes to the bends.
bored so i ventured over to put them straight lol. As regards the 1.6 8v, it can be made to cover the qtr mile faster than an average standard xe so when side by side they can be faster :p :thumb:
Referring to Dumfries cruise site, that's bollocks. it depends on the driver, suspension setup, brakes, weight of the car ie a stripped 2.016v with a cage, coilovers, 4pot brakes, chassis strengthening kit, buckets, harnesses, no interior (like brett warburtons!) can not be compared with a ?400 lash-up XE into an f reg rusty SR as seen on EBAY for a grand!
Likewise, a 1.6 T40 with no other mods is a different animal to say Dan's or Jim's.
Too much is read into Max Power BHP figures. The loss of torque on a badly set up engine will make it slower on accelleration.....
Too much is read into Max Power BHP figures. The loss of torque on a badly set up engine will make it slower on accelleration.....
Cant disagree there mate, the point made at the top of this post and within that thread was that a 1.6 8v with 40's, cam, head could produce 150bhp (yes they can, no arguements there) and that they would pace/beat a standard valver in the same trim. The reply there is yes they can, again as proven. (esp when some of us quote upto 16bhp less than a valver going from our sheet of lies ;) ).
As you correctly stated tho its not all about peak power :thumb: but how the engine is setup throughout the range
KPautomotive
14-02-06, 10:19 PM
my C16xe 1.6 16v nova was beating Corsa XE's all day long at santa pod.
Rob
PS..
KPautomotive
14-02-06, 10:20 PM
PS.. got you still to race danny boy!
If i ever decide to drag it upto pod i'll let ya know mate :thumb: I assume by that your gonna go for a proper tuneup job on the old girl and get it down to the low 14's (maye even high 13's like olly if budget is big enough?)
jamie gsi16v
14-02-06, 11:27 PM
iv just recently taken out my 142bhp proven 1600 8v out and put a stock xe in and have not noticed much differance in speed but is alot harder to stop and harder to corner! thats with polys, seam welded, avo coilovers etc and it really is harder to drive! wish id kept the 8v!
KPautomotive
15-02-06, 12:09 AM
You'll see Dan :)
nova---chris
15-02-06, 07:12 AM
Luck at budget first. Before you go wanting big hp from small lumps.
Theres no replacement for displacement. :P
Problem is you cant really compare a modified engine to a non modded engine. Not fair really. So lets say a fettled xe on cams / carbs then lets see who wins :)
Arguements from both sides on this one. TBH just go with what you want. If its small block then so be it. Only time ill consider going small block again is if it has a turbo on it . lol! Thats not knocking dan or jims cars as there both good in there own right.
This could be a long thread lol
:tard:
Im finding lots of posts annoying me today for some reason :roll:
Im 100% with nova---chris on this, you cannot compare modifyed and standard cars, or even modifyed to modifyed cars. It seems to me that the benckmark for small block Novas is the 2l 16v nova which is fair enough. But then you get the quote that 2l 16v Novas are slow clumbersum things. Which is not true.
So if you really want to know if a car is faster than another car take them both on track and compare lap times. Then you will know that on that day you where quicker. There is also ALOT to be said for the drivers of the car. A good driver can make a slower car lap faster than a bad driver in a faster car and some tracks/situations suit other cars better than others. There are just sooooo many variables.
This goes for any car.
Im sure Dan has past many a faster car in his just because he was driving the Nova better. I know i've past things and thought how the hell did I get past that :tard:
Im 100% with nova---chris on this, you cannot compare modifyed and standard cars, or even modifyed to modifyed cars. It seems to me that the benckmark for small block Novas is the 2l 16v nova which is fair enough. But then you get the quote that 2l 16v Novas are slow clumbersum things. Which is not true.
Thank fu.ck for that someone one here who is actually prepared to defend the handling abilities of the big block nova. Personally I think that I could pedal a valver nova round a rally stage just as quickly as a small block with the same amount of power. All that is needed is a decent suspension set-up. There are so many valver novas out there on the suspension that they were on when they were a small block, and then people dont understand why they don't handle well.
My XE nova handled fantastically when it was on coilovers, the only problem it had was that i didn't have it corner weighed and have a matched set of springs.
Has anyone actually weighed a build up 16XE and a 20XE? I bet theres only 15-20kgs between them! Not a lot really
Philsutton
15-02-06, 11:09 AM
i also agree with Dar on the handling front, although ive said it so many times i cant be ****d to go over it again.
thirdeyeblindman
15-02-06, 12:37 PM
you wont get 150bhp from a 1.6 8v on 40s.
it'll need to be 45s and a hell of an engine.
such as.....
one of gaults engines..?.. how convinient ;)
thirdeyeblindman - I think you are wrong. Im sure both Jim and Dan both have over 150bhp at the flywheel. Jim has over 160bhp and although the engine is modifyed (obviously) its not full race spec. Both Jim and Dan will be better informed to tell you how modifyed the engines are. Or even Stuart for that matter.
dhdev (Oli)
15-02-06, 12:57 PM
On the whole big block small block debate.
If a small block nova and big block nova are tuned like for like, ie same tyres, dampers, same engine mods etc etc. then the Big Block WILL be faster in a straight line and the small block WILL handle and brake better. However which one will be faster at a circuit depends on the circuit (assuming the same driver).
A Big block can be made to handle well, and a small block can be made fast in a straight line. But the big block has more potential for power and the small block more potential for handling as its lighter (circa 40kgs btw).
Therefore the choice is yours. What swayed it to small block for me, is that anymore than approx 200bhp will make a lightweight FWD car useless on a circuit. This is achievable with a Small block XE, so therefore i see no gain in having a Big Block. If i wanted to go fast in a straight line then forget Big Block, LET's the way forward.:thumb:
We need to prove the big block theory one way or another.
I.e have one car with an XE in it, go and do a lap of somewhere and then do another lap in the same car with the same set-up but with an equivalent ammount of power.
Seeing as I'm going to have the big block and the small block in my nova at some point I shall intend to do this.
i think that debate is really 6 of one and half a dozen of the other...
eg both are as good as eachother given the "correct" setup.
ps small blocks RULE ;) lol
c*nt ass bitch fek!!!! :mad: useless tosser..
I might MI16 it LMAO
thirdeyeblindman - I think you are wrong. Im sure both Jim and Dan both have over 150bhp at the flywheel. Jim has over 160bhp and although the engine is modifyed (obviously) its not full race spec. Both Jim and Dan will be better informed to tell you how modifyed the engines are. Or even Stuart for that matter.
Dan will quote 140bhp from his rolling road run and I will quote 155-160 from two different rolling roads, who is nearer the correct bhp output will be argued till the cows come home. There is only one way for Dan and I to get a fair comparison on the bhp reading from our engines and that's to get them on the same rolling road, but chances of that happening are slim. thirdeyeblindman, take these bhp figures back to Mr. Gault by all means. No doubt he will laugh and say it's all bull****, but meh...I really don't care.
Either way, bhp means diddly squat. Dar summed it up by saying it all depends on the driver.
Dan has put down a 1/4mile time of 14.3 seconds from his 1.6 8v on twin 40's. Now for comparison sake a standard 2.0 XE does the 1/4mile in around 14.6 seconds. Is it fair to assume a standard XE is pushing around 150bhp? So in retrospect, Dan must have more bhp to get a quicker time? Ok, this is a crude theory and many more factors come into play.
At the end of the day we are talking about two different types of engines with totally different characteristics and I don't know why this topic comes up so often?
Jim
jim i dont think mr blind man needs to "take" anything back to Mr gault... ;) and anyway we know dans engien is fake and lies lmao
thirdeyeblindman
15-02-06, 04:11 PM
what the fu3k is your problem stuart.? i dont know you, so how do you know me>
but i do agree with Dan, numbers are balls, its the performance that counts, in fact the person you are so quick to criticise says that fact all time.
my Evo is over 400hp but on track its really its slower than the WRC car of my friend (who is limited to 300ishhp and an inlet restrictor)
Give it some rev
15-02-06, 04:32 PM
chill out! its only his opinion m8 just like your last post, thats your opinion :)
thirdeyeblindman
15-02-06, 04:41 PM
sorry.. its just another member pmed me about him
I.e have one car with an XE in it, go and do a lap of somewhere and then do another lap in the same car with the same set-up but with an equivalent ammount of power.
We need a Stig to test out a range of setups lol
thirdeyeblindman
15-02-06, 04:50 PM
good idea
We need a Stig to test out a range of setups lol
Oh ohh I get 1st dibbs lol..
Sod it, it's my car lol
Might use castle coombe as the track, it's just down the road :D
And just up the road from me... I bags timekeeping lol
still funny hearing people saying that xe novas dont handle! thats only because a majority of people that build one then leave on things like gay gmax shock kits and old tired bushes and dont fit proper strengthing kits etc! and use 16v calipers etclol
still funny hearing people saying that xe novas dont handle! thats only because a majority of people that build one then leave on things like gay gmax shock kits and old tired bushes and dont fit proper strengthing kits etc! and use 16v calipers etclol
Just stated this one on the last page ;).
Oh so very true...
Nice valver nova mate!... Wat suspension is it on? Er GM shocks with cut down springs... Er right.
funny enough i just read the last page Marklol would have saved me a postlol
but yea as you say fecking gypo spec xe nova! my xe also handled alot better with no anti roll bar! gave loads more turn in on the bends! and as Dar said i doubt there is much weight difference between a small/big block!
i also think a diff has a big part to play in the set up.
I really would like to weigh the two. If it's 20kgs between the 2 then Meh. I doubt anyone on here (maby one or two) would have the driving ability to tell the differene. I should think it will be so slight.
There is only one way for Dan and I to get a fair comparison on the bhp reading from our engines and that's to get them on the same rolling road, but chances of that happening are slim.
Or you could quit bottling it and race him or russ at pod lol :cry:
russ has no car for that at the mo lol :P
dhdev (Oli)
15-02-06, 09:06 PM
I'll race any non gassed big blocks.......and beat them :thumb:
The weight difference is 40kgs accrding to some motorsport place i found a while bk that had weights for loads of engines and components, i know that sounds spurious but i'm trying to find the link at the moment :confused:
krobinson
15-02-06, 09:21 PM
Stuart has this theory that thirdeyeblindman is S-Gault,
Stupid thing is S-Gault is banned, meaning his I/P is banned, meaning he cant sign up under different names :roll:. thirdeyeblindman lives miles from steven, he's had some work done by him in the past, as well as loads of other engine builders.
The BHP argument comes up all the time. Like Jim said, his engine and Dans engine are very simaliar spec bar the cam, one has 15-20bhp more. In my book a different profile cam wont give that large of gain, so i'd say that either dans reading it low, and Jims is correct, or dans is low and Jims is high. This will never be settled unless they are run on the same rolling road, on the same day.
As mentioned before, its how the cars perform, and the drivers drive them is what matters!
Keith
hes on multiple IP's jsut like Steven... :p but anyway
pmsl how this thread has grown lol
A valver on track can handle, for those that were at llandow while chris's car was going round it looked very neat and handled good. Anything can be made to handle if it is done decently as many other owners will agree.
Just a point regarding kieths comment between mine and jims engine, jim has more than just a cam different lol, for starters it revs 1k more than mine due to different approach on the bottom end, following that the head is abit more fettled, finishing with the cam so its fair to say that every point of the engine has something different ;) (remember, this engine was built to be better than mine all round which the build has allowed for)
There are merits for both types of engine and no one is better for any particular thing depending on what people want from a car. personally i built my engine 5 yrs ago (after a previous 5 yrs abuse lol) to make it as fast as a basic valver, which over time i achieved. The car was also built mostly on a budget at major points to prove certain things can be done. This doesnt make it any better or worse, just a different approach at the times of construction compared to most :)
Snowface
15-02-06, 10:34 PM
why is s gault banned???
ditto,
I know he and stu used to wind each other up :tard: .
I suppose the reason why the whole big block, small block debate is more proniment in the Nova than any other Vauxhall is that it never was intended to be raped by big block engines.
There are pro's and con's for both with the ultimate pro for the Big being Power/cost ratio.
But sacrifices have to be made in the way of weight distribution. But damage limitation can be brought into effect in the way of a good suspension setup etc.
There is no right or wrong.
the reason steven was banned isnt open for discussion, all you need to know is it had nothing to do with stu, and that he knew it was coming before i had done it as self inflicted lol.
Its a shame as his technical knowledge was very good, but that doesnt make him any more special than other users and thus the same rules apply regardless. What goes for one goes for all.
Valver Nova cost approx ?500
1.6 T40cost is slightly more
Valver will beat a basic spec 1.6 t40 so theres my desicion for 20XE.
Plus already had carbs on my 1.4.
I'll race any non gassed big blocks.......and beat them :thumb:
Thats fighting talk that is lol;)
total_vauxhall
16-02-06, 10:17 AM
im currently in a disagreement on www.dumfriescruise.com (http://www.dumfriescruise.com) due to claiming that a fettled 1.6 with T40's, cam, 4 branch (the lot) etc etc would kick out 150+bhp and be faster than a stock XE
anyone got any input to this?
cheers all with mods a 1.6 on webers with would keep up if not leave a stock xe easy i used to hav one in my cosra n it was super fast:thumb:
why is s gault banned???
The basic principle on the site is that if you are a professional in the car modding industry etc looking to advertise or promote yourself, you pay and you can advertise on site.
What you cant do if you are in the industry is come on in a private capacity saying other professionals produce inferior work and then put links to your professional work. This is advertising by the back door.
It helps also when you are discussing these issues with administrators that you act like an adult on and off site. Considering that he's in business I was suprised by Stephen's lack of professionalism.
Jon_nova1
16-02-06, 12:31 PM
sorry to p*ss on everyones fire but the original post assumed the 1.6 was pushing 150+BHP
a standard xe pushes out 155BHP is it?:wtf:
and taking into cosideration the weight difference of 40kg?? I reckon this would put the cars about even on the straights and the 1.6 would be faster in and out the corner, even with the best suspension setup i still think you'll always feel more weight on the front end and cornering will be that bit slower
dhdev (Oli)
16-02-06, 03:00 PM
Thats fighting talk that is lol;)
Damn right it is :D
Woohoo!! :D
I will hopefully be doing more trackdays with you lot this year as well :thumb:
dhdev (Oli)
16-02-06, 04:28 PM
Awesome:thumb:
be good to have some more track focused novas out on the circuits. I'm gonna have to try coombe at some point this year, its one i've never done before. You heading to the ring at all this year Dar?
You should do Combe, its a great track. I need to do other tracks this year, hence why I want to do more trackdays with you lot. I will be going to the ring this year as well :thumb: Although I won't be trying for any fantastic lap times there. Im going for the fun of driving the ring.
if myne is ever going i want to try a track day for a laff! just to give it a go! car would be uselesslol
I'll race any non gassed big blocks.......and beat them :thumb:
:
you v rick d's car at pod sound ok then? lol :cry:
There's one just started at abingdon which may well be worth a look, going to do a day in the BM after the nurburg ring trip in April... I'll keep you peeps informed ;)
krobinson
16-02-06, 06:32 PM
Just a point regarding kieths comment between mine and jims engine, jim has more than just a cam different lol, for starters it revs 1k more than mine due to different approach on the bottom end, following that the head is abit more fettled, finishing with the cam so its fair to say that every point of the engine has something different ;) (remember, this engine was built to be better than mine all round which the build has allowed for)
Didnt realise there were other differances dan, sorry! Not having the feature section a the moment means i cant go and look :)
Still think the two of you should go to the same rolling road some day.
Infact, who's up for organising a Novaload Rolling Road day, contact total vauxhall etc, if its in the north, maybe midlands i'd even drive mine over for the event! There's alot of nice powered novas on here at the moment!
Keith
dhdev (Oli)
16-02-06, 07:10 PM
you v rick d's car at pod sound ok then? lol :cry:
yeah ok, doesnt even run does it:p
ok smart 4rse big block xe's lol (non turbo)
I think my old once mapped would have given your car a run for its money.. Unmapped it managed a 13.815 @ 101.5.
Gone now though :cry:
womble sri
17-02-06, 08:16 PM
Infact, who's up for organising a Novaload Rolling Road day, contact total vauxhall etc, if its in the north, maybe midlands i'd even drive mine over for the event! There's alot of nice powered novas on here at the moment!
Keith
id be up for that if its midlands not sure about north. East would be nice :)
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