View Full Version : Do you believe in 'God'?
All-classic topic after recent events...
:? Im not really sure what to belive im a great beliver in the fact that you have to see it to belive it!
There could be something or there might be nothing who knows but when i see it i will belive it if at all!
:lilangel:
Philsutton
11-01-05, 05:29 PM
no its something that has been created offer solutions to many of the things we dont understand or choose not to understand
Matt Nova
11-01-05, 05:32 PM
there is something there but not sure what it is :?:
Philsutton
11-01-05, 05:33 PM
more than likely aliens
i sort of do
don't pray or owt but must be sommant there
this is my take on other religions though (sorry if this offends)
the biggest wealth in the uk belongs to the church, coming from the olden days when if you didn't give mass amounts of land or money to the church you were frowned upon,
this is where i think all the other religions sprung from, when they saw the mass ammount of money and land that could be gained from 'god' they said we'll have a bit of that
peester
11-01-05, 06:43 PM
no. seein is believin. good story for its time though.
Religion=created by the elite as a method of public control. Looks like it worked :? :roll:
5_door owner
11-01-05, 07:23 PM
if there is a god ,who made god???
:?:
and no i dont belive in god or religion.
?Marty?
11-01-05, 07:38 PM
Good topic Fester! I was actually thinking about this the other day (whilst not being able to fall asleep).
And posted a similar thread on my HUGELY popular forum. lol
People look at natural disasters and 'bad things' that happen and say 'if there is a 'God', WHY would he do this!?'. Then denounce 'God'.
But.
Who say's that 'he' did 'do it/let it happen'? If there is a 'God', then there must also be a 'devil'. Who would then be 'responsible' for the bad things.
Another thing? - Do you believe in Ghosts? Do you believe in the existence of 'a soul'? In life after death? Re-incarnation?
I personally think that various belief systems are inter-linked. People who believe in 'the unexplained' believe in most of it, rather than just certain aspects.
To answer the question, no i do not believe in 'God'. I uised to believe in 'God' when i was little. But then i also believed in Father Christmas...(don't start going on about the whole 'St Nick' tradition thing! You KNOW what i mean.lol)
The only good thing about religion, is the generation of HOPE to those that have nothing else. I mean, 'it would be nice' if there was 'a Heaven' and etc.
Personally i would not believe in something can not not be proven (nor disproven). Why waste time/effort in following a belief system you can not substantiate?
Or do you think that, BECAUSE it can not be disproven (sure, some of teh things such as evolution have been proven as scientific) either, you should believe in it (even if a little) just to make sure that you don't 'miss out' at 'the end'? The whole religion thing has too many conflicting ideals too! To do with sins, forgiveness, worship methods, ideology in general. And even as an Atheist, i would STILL go to 'Heaven' if there was such a thing, because of the whole nature of sin, forgiveness and etc. In otherwords - you can't lose. lol
It at the end of the day it is good to believe in something that gives you hope and comfort. If that is 'God' to you, then fair enough. It only pisses me off when people try to enforce their own beliefs on others.
?Marty?
11-01-05, 08:00 PM
I came back to add (since i haven't written anywhere NEAR enough lol) that 'man made 'God' out of ignorance and fear'.
I REALLY like the 'Elite' reasoning used to explain 'the invention of God' too. And various other explanations.
As scientific discovery progresses, religious belief systems start being questioned more and more, and their followers/believers decline if they can not be substantiated by fact. Look at how many 'Gods' the Greeks worshipped!!!
The ONLY reason why people 'believe' (follow a religion) is because of a hope and comfort factor afforded to them by their beliefs. They WANT it to be true and they WANT to believe, because without it everything has to be attributed to cause and effect and thus personal actions, environment, social class, heritage, and etc. People want hope to 'better themselves', and comfort in failure and things out of their control.
A common belief system unifies people and makes everyone equal.
?Marty?
11-01-05, 08:01 PM
I believe.
In a thing called Love.
Can't explain all the feelings that you're making me feel
My heart's in overdrive and you're behind the steering wheel
Touching you, touching me
touching you, god you're touching me
I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance we could make it now
We'll be rocking 'til the sun goes down
I believe in a thing called love
Ooh!
I wanna kiss you every minute, every hour, every day
You got me in a spin but everythin' is A.OK!
Touching you, touching me
touching you, god you're touching me
I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance we could make it now
We'll be rocking 'til the sun goes down
I believe in a thing called love
Ooh! Guitar!
Touching you, touching me
touching you, god you're touching me
I believe in a thing called love
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance we could make it now
We'll be rocking 'til the sun goes down
I believe in a thing called love
Ooh!
lmao
LMFAOWROFL
marty you are crazy :lol: :lol:
you do make me laugh lol
It does not matter if you believe in God or not, as long as you repent when you are standing in front of St Peter at the gates of heaven, all sin is forgiven!! :twisted:
you can always trust marty to post lines and lines of gobbledy gook
It does not matter if you believe in God or not, as long as you repent when you are standing in front of St Peter at the gates of heaven, all sin is forgiven!! :twisted:
how do you know its a christian god
could be muslim budda ect :wink:
I dont see how in todays world there can be any existance of religion left, when all science indicates that he doesn't. Just becasue we don't understand or can't explain something doesn't mean there must be other forces at work. I think religion was started to help build a set of ground rules for people to base their day to day lives on, and to answer all of the unknown questions and to ease berievement.
Just look at the whole Adam and Eve/garden of Eden story. Proved now to be completely false by the "discovery" of the evolutionary process.
I have nothing against people being religious as long as their religions do not affect me directly or they try and push beliefs onto me. Although I will say people who take holy books/scriptures word for word are plainly stupid. Look at 2 different eye witnessess accounts of an event. They will differ a fair amount. Now multiply this by the 2000+ years that religions have been around with the rules and beliefs being passed down. They WILL have changed dramtically.
Religion has caused so many wars and so much violence, we WOULD be better off without it, leading logical and scientific lives. Religion is a form of brainwashing sometimes when someone is brought up with it and constantly has it forced upon them, while they have no other options and are ignorant to other beliefs.
In addition to this religion HAS to be wrong somewhere. Even if there is something else, it would make all other religions false and mostly a waste of peoples lives.
Lets face it, we are animals. We are born and then we die. End of. There is no heaven, hell or anything else. We have a consiousness which vanishes when we die, just like when you fall asleep you dont remember it, and are not aware of it. Dreams occur just before our consiousness fades, and while we are not asleep but in a limbo between the both states. Humans are nothing special. We are just residents on this plannet whho have just been VERY sucessful/lucky in our evolution. I hate to say it, but we are no better/ more "enlightened" than a garden worm.
In a nutshell... and I've had conversations like this many a time lol....
I've been biting my tongue on this one for a while, as my ex was very religious, blindly... I could sit here an go on about some of her "beliefs", but I won't. Apart from the Dinosaurs being a hoax :wink:
I'm not a religious person, I don't believe in God as I'm too "logical" - I require evidence, proof and reasoning as to why things happen, and "because of God" to me is NOT an answer. Same goes for ghosts and spiritualism. I have theories on "ghosts", and have (and will continue to) investigate them until I have a definate answer.
The ways I see it, as Marty says, that man invented God to answer the questions he could not answer. Lets face it - a few hundred years ago they "believed" the world was flat, and that you'd fall off the edge if you attempted to sail round it. Nowadays its basic infant school knowledge that the earth is round.
I'm not anti-religion, if people want to believe in a God and messiah (in whatever form), then fair play to them - its when they try to push their religion on others, or use it as an excuse for war or suffering that gets my back up.
We live, we die, badda bing the end. lol.
Matt Nova
12-01-05, 01:46 PM
forget religion this guys got a plan
We live, we die, badda bing the end. lol
MattNova
12-01-05, 01:52 PM
im afraid i dont. my grandad suffered for 5 years with osterporosis (brittle bone disease) the way i see it is if he is true, why did he suffer for so long? i guess im just very sceptabel.
PrimaNova
12-01-05, 02:20 PM
i'm sorry guys but i'm afraid that a lot of you guys need to read more. a LOT more, before you can come to your so called ''conclusions'' that God doesn't exist. i've recently started reading about the Bible, and I can't believe what I'm seeing. That book is sooo flawed it's amazing! No wonder there'r so many sceptics and atheists, satanist,nazis, etc in the west/christian/ex-christian world! If you constrain yourself to one belief system,and refuse/are too lazy to explore the FINAL testiment to human kind (the Quran), which is ENTIRELY God's word, then you would find that you're only seeing 5% of the whole story (if that!!).
I'm not tryin to preach Islam onto anybody, as I know there's no point doing this hear,or indeed with 99% of the british community,but please go out and read, not necessarily the Quran itself but the numerous other publications (written in english) about Islam and the extensive proofs that there is a supreme being that created us all and everything else around us,etc etc
I'm more than happy to talk to anyone in here about anything religion or politics related/i'm myself and iraqi, so i've got a lot of experience on these matters.
But don't let that stop you from persuing the more important matter of driving your supercool nova around your backyard!wohoo bring it on man!
i'm sorry guys but i'm afraid that a lot of you guys need to read more. a LOT more, before you can come to your so called ''conclusions'' that God doesn't exist.
Give me proof that he does (ASIDE from the written word of another) and I'll believe in God.
It's the arrogance of religion I can't take: "I am right therefore anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong".
In a religious context what you 'believe' is only what you're taught to believe based mainly on your geographical location.
I welcome a (mature) debate on religion. I find it funny how you basically put down every other religion by saying the Quran is God's final word. Im sure that many other religions will say the same about other documents.
In a serious question what are your views on the whole evolutionary process and hoiw that all fits in? When did homo sapiens stop being apes and become Allah's finest creation?
I was brought up by a Christain but came to my own conclusions about life and existance (i am not religious at all).
I hope this doesn't turn into a stupid, racist and insulting thread as there are many people in this country (of many different religions and backgrounds) who should be ashamed for themselves.
It's the arrogance of religion I can't take: "I am right therefore anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong".
In a religious context what you 'believe' is only what you're taught to believe based mainly on your geographical location.
I agree 100% here.
i'm sorry guys but i'm afraid that a lot of you guys need to read more. a LOT more, before you can come to your so called ''conclusions'' that God doesn't exist. i've recently started reading about the Bible, and I can't believe what I'm seeing. That book is sooo flawed it's amazing!
I am sure that a lot of people can pick out "flaws" in the Quran. One thing off the top of my head is the way in which it is written (the same is true with the bible) and things can be interpreted differently by different people. Two people of the same religion will believe in slightly different things on some subject matters. e.g. the beheadings in Iraq, where the people doing it are doing it "in the name of Allah" whilst other Muslims declare that the statements that these people base these actions on are not being interpreted correctly. Most Holy books seem to be very general on a lot of matters.
PrimaNova
12-01-05, 04:00 PM
:D I'm glad you guys cared enough to reply to my posting.
ok, w.r.t ''proof'' that God exists, you've got the ultimate miracle, the Quran. the list of proofs that the quran is a miracle is too long to list here,so i'm not gonna waste my time,but i DO have to give u a summary. the words in that book where DIRECTLY passed from God to the Prophet Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel in 2 ''sessions''. the prophet was totally illiterate,so the argument that he came up with the words doesnt work here.also,translations of the bible havent reached the arabic world at that point,so ''copying'' from the old testament argument doesnt work either. and the shear pool of scientific knowledge about things that astronomers,biologists,etc are discovering now,that exists in there,could enver have been obtained by an illiterate beduin in 600AC!
arrogance? as i said,i'm not preaching my believes.i'm only telling you that you need to open your eyes and minds,and see what's around you,that's all. i don't believe in Go because my mom told me to,i believe in Him because you'd be stupid and ignorant not to.remember we dont go door to door preachin our believes,but christians do (jehovas witness?)
what i ment by the Quran being the Final testament from God onto mankind was (i wouldnt have to explain this if you guys did your history research), stuff that's mentioned inthe bible anyway. u had Moses and his old testament,then you had Jesus and his preachings (we believe and accept both by the way), and then you had mohammad and the Quran.the final prophet to bring a message to man from God,to put him on the right path.
what do i think of evolution? rubbish
Jehova Witnesses are not mainstream Christian (in fact im not 100% sure that they class themselves this) and are quite removed from "normal" Christians (and JWs are annoying :P ).
I dont consider any holy book as 100% fact, as they are so old, and have been passed down so many years they could have been changed many times, as well as meaning being lost through translation and the fact that all languages have evolved by some respect (you have to belive in that evolution lol :lol: )
I find your argument concerning evolution a bit thin lol. What do you think about the existance of dinosaurs before mankind, and also the recent discovery of these "hobbit" creatures which were suposidly a different species of mankind?
Philsutton
12-01-05, 04:34 PM
Being a physicist i find too many things wrong with the whole idea of it all. A lot of things have been proven by science that certain things arent possible or things that god had supposedly done have logical explanations to them.
I can understand why people might get upset at the thought of their whole belief being incorrect. But as of yet i see no evidence to suggest anything other. Its all down to what people believe not what actually exsists as there is no evidence on the side for God, only words from other people an some writing in books. I mean there are plenty of story books out around what makes you think this all true an not just someone kids bed time story that his dad wrote thousands of years ago??
It's the arrogance of religion I can't take: "I am right therefore anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong".
That sums up my ex exactly!
Primanova, you're still basing all your views of religion on the Qu'ran.
and the shear pool of scientific knowledge about things that astronomers,biologists,etc are discovering now,that exists in there,could enver have been obtained by an illiterate beduin in 600AC!
Such as?
i believe in Him because you'd be stupid and ignorant not to.
I also find this a slightly limp argument :?
limp, and slightly narrow minded coming from someone who wishes to open this into a sensible discussion regarding belifes.
the tora was "the first" book that moses sorted. and it apparently contains a code, which im about 70/30 on beliving lol
evolution is fact, get over it. science Vs religion will ALWAYS have a fight lol.
i have a problem with quorn as it makes my throat swell up :s (that was a light hearted bit of humour before ANYONE take offence)
os im watching this thread so play nice kids
i mean we are bring the kids up to believe in god they have both been christerend and r lass takes them to church
i dont go due to the fact i was forced to go buy my mother as a child so find i do not wish to be there but like said i still believ in a christian god as it was how i was brought up and hopefully so will my children
ah but lee, are you not worried that by taking them to church will give them the same experience you had, and they will belive, but not wish to go as it was "forced on them" at a young age?
not sayiung dont do it. but it could be history repeating itself.
they seem to really enjoy it
as far as am concerened as soon as they say "i dont want to go" then they dont have to
where as i used to say that to my mum and got told "your still going" :lol:
?Marty?
12-01-05, 08:18 PM
Following religious preachings is just a continuation of Chinese Whispers.
My viewpoint has been stated and is basically the same as that held by Road_knight76, Fester and Alex. i.e along the same lines of reasoning.
I am a God of my own life and my own destiny. I believe in only one thing, and that's CHOICE and CONSEQUENCE.
?Marty?
12-01-05, 08:30 PM
evolution is fact, get over it. science Vs religion will ALWAYS have a fight lol
Couldn't agree more!
There are many different religions, with each one stating that 'their God' is 'the true God' and etc etc. If there IS 'a God', but it turned out to be from a religion that differs from the one that you followed/believed in, then you would still then have to face the 'actual God'. From whichever religion 'he' may 'actually be from'. Even if an Atheist.
The existence of 'God' can NOT be proven. 'God' is just a 'higher power'. Something that exercises the power of control over another being. We are all 'God' over someone/thing else, in a variety of different ways.
ok, w.r.t ''proof'' that God exists, you've got the ultimate miracle, the Quran...the words in that book were DIRECTLY passed from God to the Prophet Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel in 2 ''sessions''. the prophet was totally illiterate,so the argument that he came up with the words doesnt work here...
- This argument is SEEMS (note i am not stating this as fact) flawed from the outset!
miracle ~ an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the simple volition of God, operating without the use of means capable of being discerned by the senses, and designed to authenticate the divine commission of a religious teacher and the truth of his message = no evidence. Proof without evidence? Hmmm.
If Prophet Mohammad was totally illiterate, who wrote the Quran? He clearly could not have. Nor could he substantiate the ACTUAL content of the Quran if it was written by another. Whether 'God' actually 'spoke' to him or not, it was STILL a game of 'Chinese Whispers'. 'Hear Say'. And this is NO proof of anything whatsoever.
Where can i get a copy of the Quran? I will read it, so that i am able to make an informed opinion of whether i shoudl dismiss or accept it. Although i will NEVER accept something as fact (not something as 'big' as religion anyway! lol) unless i experience it as primary source of evidence. i.e. unless 'God' actually comes to me myself. 'God' is supposed to be 'omnipresent', so he should be easily able to prove himself to all. lol
I don't see the point of 'following' things, even for hope. Create your own hope. Choose your own destiny. Create your own luck.
Whether there IS or is not an actual 'God', YOU choose whether you want to be a 'good person', or a 'bad person'. THIS is the thing that ACTUALLY matters.
Following religious preachings is just a continuation of Chinese Whispers.
Exactly the analogy I've used in the past on this subject.
Marty has a good point - in a way we are all "God" - we can create life, control an environment, control and manipulate others, and (possibly most importantly) we can destroy life too. Depends where you stand as to who/what your God is.
This is the bit I can't get my head round..if the earth was created by a 'big bang' what did we evolve from?
There had to be a starting point for life, for us to evolve from be it either dust or some thing that 'landed' on the planet after it was formed thus there must be other life in the universe.
It is a complex theory but i agree with most others on the theories that the bible and other religious books are deeply flawed, if we are to beleive in jesus and how he performed him 'miracles' word of his miricles travelled from town to town as gossip and most people will know sometimes gossip isn't true :lol: ,
one of the other factors is translations, wordings change when languages are translated from language to language, so there is plenty of chance for changes to occur in a chinease whispers sort of a way wherever the information came from for these books.
a very long thread could continue if this was left to roll on!
think the best was to summarise it is everybody is differnet in their beliefs and what one persons opinions seem to always confilct with others!
PrimaNova
13-01-05, 11:55 AM
let the people who are wiser than me do the talking:
MAN AND EXISTENCE
Man is a thoughtful creature who lives amidst this spacious world. He contemplates everything around him and tries to understand its essence. He asks himself: How did the world come into being? How does it move in such a precise and perfect manner? Does it have a beginning? Does it have an end? What comes after? If it has a beginning, does this mean that it was non-existent and then came into being? Who created it? Did it come into being by chance, or was it manifested by a wise creator?
The answer to these questions form man's doctrine and his concept of the universe and life. They effectively help to determine his fate, his civilization and social, personal and psychological stability. These answers can also make him a victim of skepticism, anxiety, loss and misery.
Scholars, scientists, philosophers and thinkers attempt, through their abstract intellectual, experimental and scientific methods to find solutions to these questions.
HOW DID THE WORLD BEGIN?
There is intellectual and inner evidence which man began with, beside the studies of the philosophers and scientists which proves that the world is the creation of a wise creator. Science, in all it branches, uncovered a great and important part of this knowledge which was an enigma to us formerly and helped explain the truth of the world. These discoveries overwhelmed false theories and unveiled ignorance. When the veils were lifted, the structure of materialism fell in pieces. The divine creed was supported by experimental evidence, whereas materialism was based on two philosophical principles:
1. The Theory Asserting that Matter is Perpetual.
It had neither a beginning nor an end. Thus, it has no creator and it is not replaced by another form of existence.
2. The Theory of Chance and Ignoring Cause and Effect.
It says that the world came into being by accident. It has no creator.
These theories were overturned at the hands of experimental science and materialist philosophy was vanquished with this abstract philosophical and intellectual defeat. These ideas were exposed as imaginary suppositions by science.
Let's discuss the theory of materialism on the basis of experimental evidence and intellectual proofs as follows:
1. Proof of Order
A comprehensive look at nature, man, plants, animals, etc., revealed that order is the center of their existence. Intellect tells us that something which is wise, omniscient and omnipotent is behind this. It should be clear that the theory stating the universe came into being by sheer chance, or that matter is eternal, is quite ridiculous.
The impossibility of the world being brought into existence by chance is a fact established by scientific studies and research.
About nature, the scientists say: "In the beginning, as a habitat for the human being, there was a moving planet (the earth). After a series of changes over 2 billion years or more, it became suitable for animal and floral life which was crowned by man...The earth rotates completely once every 24 hours at an average speed of 1,000 miles per hour."
Let us suppose that it revolves at 100 mile per hour...Why not? Our days and nights will be ten times longer. In this case, the scorching summer sun would daily burn our plants and freeze them at night.
The sun has a fiery surface of 12,000,000 degrees F. The distance between the earth and the sun is so suitably perfect that it gives our earth sufficient warmth and no more. Throughout million of years the alteration of this balance was so rare that life on earth did not cease to exist. If the temperature on earth was raised by 50 degrees during one year, the result would be the inevitable death of all plants and animals; man would also succumb to the consequences of the increased heat.
The earth revolves at an average of 18 miles per second. If it revolves, for example, at 6 or 40 miles per second then all types of life would cease.
The stars differ in the strength of their brightness. The majority of them could destroy all types of life on earth if they were close enough. The intensity and strength of their luminosity ranges between something below that of our sun and 10,000 times more than it.
The position of our earth relative to the sun is perfect. Any variation in this distance would mean the end of life as we know it. If the sun's radiation was reduced to half, we would freeze to death and if it increased by half we would be reduced to ashes. If we were born as a protoplasmic cell of life, we should know that our sun is the best, out of millions of suns, for sustaining our life.
The earth is oblique, tilted at an angle of 23 degrees. There are many reasons for this. If the earth were not oblique, the two poles would be in perpetual darkness and the vapor rising from the oceans would move to the north and south leaving continents of snow in its wake and perhaps a desert between the Equator and the snow. This would create rives of snow flowing through valleys to salt-covered bottoms of oceans forming a short-lived pool of salt.
"The moon is 240,000 miles away from earth. If this distance were 50,000 miles, the tides would be so great that all areas usually below sea level would be flooded twice daily and the water is capable of washing away the mountain themselves. In this case, perhaps no continent could have risen from the ocean beds. The earth would be destroyed and the tides would cause whirlwinds every day." (Science Calls for Faith, Chrisie Morrison, 5th ed., chapter one.)
Another proof against the "accident theory" is stated by a scientist who observed: "Oxygen is a good example of the perfectly precise order of creation. The air above the earth is a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen, argon, xenon, and krypton. It contains vapor and carbon dioxide at a level of 0.03% for every 1% of air or about 3:10,000. As for the rare gases, they appear in the red, blue and green spectrum. Agron, which is present in concentration of 0.9%-1%, gives us the dazzling brightness used for various purposes and which has aided human progress. Nitrogen is about 78% of the air, while the amount of oxygen is usually estimated at 21%. The air, in general, exerts a pressure of approximately 15 pounds per square inch at sea level. Oxygen helps maintain this pressure. The rest of the oxygen is present in chemicals in the outer crust of the earth. It constitutes 8% of all the world's water. Oxygen is the breath of life for all living creatures on earth and it cannot be obtained from sources other than the air.
"Here we raise a question: How could this super active element, as far as chemistry is concerned, be free in the air in suitable quantities for animal life? If oxygen were 50% of the air instead of 21%, all inflammable materials would be on the verge of being set ablaze so that any spark from say a thunderbolt that might strike a tree would incinerate the entire forest. If the percentage of oxygen dwindled to 10% or less, life would have been nearly the same, but many of the elements which were conducive to man's progress, like fire, would have been scarce. If free oxygen were absorbed by the many million parts of the soil, then every form of animal life would cease at once." (Science Calls for Faith, Chapter: Gases We Breathe.)
Another commanding scientific proof of the existence of wisdom and order behind creation quotes: "If the earth revolved quicker than usual, the houses would have been scattered and the earth would be splintered into small lumps in infinite space as a result of centrifugal force produced by the spinning of the earth. If the earth revolved more slowly, for instance at 100 hours instead of 24, all creatures on earth, be it plants or animals, would have been dead for half of the earth would have been under the blazing sun for a long period and the inevitable result would have been the death of all forms of life on earth as a result of the sun's fatal heat." (Frank Ellen's lecture, "Allah Appears in the Scientific Era", compiled by a group of scientists, translated by Damirdash.)
These scientific realities contribute to the fact that every aspect of creation is perfect and faultless and that life on earth, especially that of man, is rendered comfortable by design. Chaos and confusion can, by no means, bring into creation such an extensive, balanced and perfectly organized universe.
"If the earth's crust were thicker by only a few feet, the oxygen and carbon dioxide would be absorbed and no life on earth could be possible." (Science Calls for Faith, Chapter on Air and Environment.)
"If the earth were as large as the sun, with its present density, its magnetism would increase 150 times and the altitude of the atmosphere would decrease by four miles. The process of vaporization would be impossible. Furthermore, atmospheric pressure would increase to more than 150 kgs/ square cm, and the weight of an animal, which now scales only one pound, would be 150 pounds. The size of man would be reduced to the size of a weasel or squirrel, and the life for such animals would be rendered difficult indeed." (Frank Ellen's lecture.)
If these proofs deny the creation of the universe by accident, then the formation of living materials and life by accident is all the more impossible as presented by a scientist who wrote: "Proteins are basic chemicals in all live cells. They are composed of five elements: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen and sulphur. The number of atoms in every protein molecule amounts to 40,000.
"As the chemical elements number 92, distributed randomly, the possibility of the coalescing of the five elements to compose one protein molecule can be known by defining the quantity of the material sufficient to compose it by a continuous process of mixing together and by defining the period of time through which the various atoms of the molecules gather.
"The Swiss mathematician, Charles Eugene Jay, labored prodigidously on this point. He found that the chance by which one protein molecule could be composed equals of percentage of 1 in 10 to a power of 160! In other words, at a rate of 1 to 10 multiplied by itself 160 times. It is a figure so immense that it cannot be expressed in words. The quantity of material required for the process to be done by accident is more than the universe can accommodate by a million times. The time required is billions of years, estimated by the Swiss mathematician at 10 multiplied by itself 243 times in years!
"Proteins are, in fact, long chains of amino acids. How do the atoms of these molecules combine? It they combine in a way other than the usual method, they will be harmful to life and may transform into poisons. The British scientist, J. B. Liths, estimated the ways the atoms in a simple molecule of protein can combine at 10 to the 48th power. Then, in light of the fact, it is completely illogical for a protein molecule to come into existence by chance.
"Proteins are nothing but inert chemicals. They can never be stirred to life unless that mysteriously enigmatic secret slips into them. It is the limitless mind, God alone, Who knows, through His infinite knowledge, that the protein molecule can be a container of life, so He built and furnished it with life." (Frank Ellen's lecture.)
Doesn't all of this scientific fact point to the wisdom and planning behind creation and deny chaos, randomness and chance in every cell of the most wonder world? Doesn't this give us cause to admit that there is a Merciful Creator?
2. Proof of Motion and Inertial System
The world is in continuous motion from the parts of an atom to the huge galaxies. In accordance to a balanced and delicate order, the sun, moon, stars, planets and galaxies move incessantly.
How was this movement given existence? Physics emphasizes the first law of motion, which states that: "Every body continues in its state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line, except insofar as it is compelled by external forces to change that state."
If material cannot move on its own, neither can it produce movement; then who moves the world and animates it in this brilliantly conceived way? The source of the movement must be an external force. This force must be God, the Most Glorified.
The proof of motion and the inertial system indicates that there is a force setting the world into motion. The second law of thermodynamics proves that the world had a beginning and has an end and so repeals the theory of materialism's perpetuality.
It is of benefit to us all to know the viewpoint of the renowned physicist, Claude M. Hachawai, who wrote: "Planning, order or arrangement, or whatever you call it, can never be achieved except in two ways; per chance, or perfect planning. The more complicated the planning is, the more chance is excluded. Living in this limitless world, we cannot but admit the existence of God.
"The second point worth mentioning in this respect is that the designer of this world is not material. I think that God is kind and non-material. I believe in the existence of metaphysical things. As I am a physicist, I feel a great need for the existence of an original, non-material source of creation. My philosophy allows for existence of non-material things, which as understood from the name, cannot be discerned by the natural senses. It is something crazy to deny His existence because modern science failed to reach Him. Modern physics has, moreover, taught me that nature is far less capable of setting itself in order, or controlling itself." (Frank Ellen's lecture.)
"Sir Isaac Newton came to the conclusion that the universe is moving toward desolation. It is edging to a point where the temperature of all its elements are equal. He deduced that there must have been a beginning to the universe and that it must have been created according to a particular scheme and a planned system.
etc etc etc etc etc
check out
http://www.balagh.com/english/steps/index.htm
was great talking to you guys! :lol:
^ a lot of that above tells us why there is no life on any of the other planets of our solar system, and (more than likely) the majority of other planets in the universe. The probablility of conditions for life on any planet are billions to one - but the Earth has proven it can happen. The Earth was not created for us - we evolved to suit our planet and environment. In simpler terms - if the world was an ocean, we'd all be fish. And we may or may not have evolved the mental capacity to consider such a discussion as this.
One could of course argue then that if Dinosaurs evolved, how come they didn't re-evolve (for want of a better word lol) after being wiped out by a meteor? Well if you believe evolution is based on chance, then no two things will be the same hence why the evolution stages clearly differed. If you believe evolution is based on laws and rules, then its because the environment had changed; and other creatures that had survived were given a head start in the evolutionary ladder.
I'm at work at the moment so haven't had a chance to read through all the above, only skimmed through it. I'll take a closer look tonight :wink:
I too am at work but i had a quick glance at that website, especially this page
http://www.balagh.com/english/steps/3.htm
It basically says
Jews: Started off good but isolated themselves and poisoned the book given to moses. - ANY Proof of this?
"It may be more accurate now to call their book, "the book of the rabbis"" - LMAO. Good name :lol:
Christains: Came from the ideas of Paul - who was a Jew therefore Biggoted about his father and country - WTF automatically dismiss him through a stereotype!!!! - Any proof?
Islam: Muslims preserved the Holy Qur'an perfectly with no additions or omissions. - Ok no proof what so ever of this. Also no proof where it REALLY came from.
I am 100% sure if i brought up a child to believe that Lord of the rings happened and brought the whole fantasy (yes - its not real kids lol) into his/her daily life for the child's entire childhood, the child would class this as fact, especially if he/she was in a community that were brought up in a similar way. Im not saying that any holy book is a fairytale, but you must agree that religions are very closely linked to Geography.
PrimaNova
13-01-05, 01:45 PM
happy reading mate :wink:
i have to say something that came to my mind just now to accompany the above passage.
how did you all come to be decent, with moral political and intelectual awareness? The main objectives of the prophets was the conveyance of the divine messages, reform of society and the liberation of man from the clutches of perversion, crime and moral decay. Their objective was to free him from the evils of tyrants and oppressors and to ween his psychology from backwardness and superstition. Otherwise we'd all still be shaggin each other,steeling from each other,drinking ourselves silly, etc etc...hang on, things havent changed much in the west...
PrimaNova
13-01-05, 01:53 PM
The Pentateuch and the Bible did mention the characteristics of the Prophet Muhammad, the place of his appearance and his message. A great number of Jewish and Christian clergy at the time embraced Islam and believed in the Prophet because they found his name and attributes in the Pentateuch and the Bible.
bu thten again if you dont believe in any religion,then there's no point in having a discussion is there?
To be fair though what you say isn't true about the East though. It is just as bad as the West. Ignoring what has happened since (as it has been handled blatently in the wrong manner) but Sadam Hussain was an evil tyrant and oppressor. The East is as bad as the West.
I find that the Buddists seem to be the most peacefull of all religious groups and the least corrupt etc.
There is a point of discussion, I am quite enjoying it (and learning a little) and hope you are as well. I used to be very close to a security guard at my job when i was at uni. He was a strict muslim. We worked together a fair bit and found that talks about life and religion were very enjoyable and a good subject to help fill in gaps in each others knowledge about different cultures and religions.
PrimaNova
13-01-05, 02:03 PM
fair enough mate,i totally agree..BUT, these bastards dont represent Islam do they? i didnt say that all muslims are God's gift to mankind,we're not perfect...we're nowehre newar perfect! these fools never had the intentions of doing things for the good of their people.their greed and selfishness brought them to their own downfall...bastards destroyed my country.i havent been back in 26 years,and i'm not expecting to go back until things settle, so another 50 years?
same goes to the fools who identify themselves as ''the resistance'' in iraq, they kill in the name of Islam.they kill their muslim brothers! they'r not different from those american dogs.
i'm sorry,but i have a lot of anger and sadness in me, and i just want the west to leave us alone. i wish they could realise that we as a people (arabs/muslims) can never embrace democracy,not because it's ''bad'' or whateva, but because we dont want to.there are some ideas we can adopt and use to our benefit, but we're better off without it.
Just out of interest are you from Iraq?
PrimaNova
13-01-05, 02:23 PM
yes i am,but i left when i was 1. but fortunately i've got family and friends still there and my dad goes back every once in a while,so they tell me a lot about it.i feel very much connected to home as someone who's lived there all their life.
i lived in austria (vienna,12 years),Dubai (6 years) and London (6 years)throughout my life. now i'm in bristol.
u'r right about worth having this discussion.i love talkin about this stuff. makes me more commited to pursue my faith each time!
Why did you leave in the first place?
I think every religion on its own is a peaceful one, its when they come together or when culture clashes with religion is where the trouble starts. One reason why I am not religious is the fact that I see how much suffering and violence it causes. - The Crusades, the Jihads etc and none of them really solve anything.
p.s. i think we have scared everyone else off lol
PrimaNova
13-01-05, 03:30 PM
yeah but does the actions of a few greedy materialistic imbecils,who have noting in mind but power and money, affect your decision of worshiping God?
we were forced out of iraq because my mother's side of the family's religious and political ideologies didnt agree with saddams. he was an arab nationalst with fascist ideas and visions.
i hope they torture him long and slowly before they kill him.but that wont make up for the suffering of my family and millions like them.
btw, what do u drive? i jsut bought a 5door 1.4i Lux+.i wanna mod it,slowly.never done a thing like this before and could do with sum advise. where should i start?
slightlyt controvesial idea here
if a god/sentiant being created us, then surely "he" would ahve made us perfect, and not fight/otehr bad shit. as it would have been inbuilt to be nice etc so technically the preachings wouldnt be needed etc.
or was that just a stupidly radical idea i came up with?
But surely if we were all perfect, we would all be identical clones?
Primanova- Get some pics of your Nova and post them up in a different thread with some thoughts on the kind of thing you want to do.
Their objective was to free him from the evils of tyrants and oppressors and to ween his psychology from backwardness and superstition.
One could say that a lot of religion is based on superstition
Otherwise we'd all still be shaggin each other,steeling from each other,drinking ourselves silly, etc etc...hang on, things havent changed much in the west...
Neither have they in the East. Problem for the most of us is that its the media that portrays the worst of both East and West; where as in reality I'm sure there are as many peaceful inhabitants of the East as there are in the West (and vice versa).
There is a point of discussion, I am quite enjoying it (and learning a little) and hope you are as well.
When it can be discussed as thus, then it is a good and very in depth subject. Its when people start a slanging match and going on at each other for what they believe ("you don't follow my faith therefore you're wrong" and etc), thats when things get out of order and on a larger scale when religion leads to conflict, war, and in some cases genocide.
fair enough mate,i totally agree..BUT, these ba***d dont represent Islam do they?
Similar situation to how Northern Ireland was in a way. Most of the civilians would rather live in peace; its just the few (perhaps using religion as an excuse) who are the major cause of the fracas, either by physical means or by influencing and "leading" other people.
if a god/sentiant being created us, then surely "he" would ahve made us perfect, and not fight/otehr bad s**t. as it would have been inbuilt to be nice etc so technically the preachings wouldnt be needed etc.
Apparentlty man corrupted himself (with the help of the devil, or equivalent lol). Frankly, I find this to be a bit of an "I can't help the way I am, its the Devil's fault" kinda pass the blame thing... I'm wholly responsible for the decisions I make in life, and that includes whether or not to follow or believe in a God.
One could question why doesn't God make himself more present? If we all KNEW there was a God, then I daresay everyone would be a whole lot more willing to follow whatever religion they chose! Surely if God knows all, and we are all His children, etc then He would know that some among us are more inclined to only believe things with hard evidence? Without any sufficient evidence, then He would surely reaslise that some of us choose not to believe in Him, effectively meaning He is giving us up to whatever hellish afterlife we are supposedly due for not following His word?
If man could corrupt himself, then he was not perfect in the first place.
slightlyt controvesial idea here
if a god/sentiant being created us, then surely "he" would ahve made us perfect, and not fight/otehr bad s**t. as it would have been inbuilt to be nice etc so technically the preachings wouldnt be needed etc.
or was that just a stupidly radical idea i came up with?
they tried that in the matrix created the perfect world but we as humans could cope with it :wink:
scott.parker
13-01-05, 11:11 PM
Ok i have sat and reard all of this post so far, i here what eveyone is asying BUT im not saying your wrong to belive in your owne belifes,i will say though that my belife is
(If there wer a higher creator who put us here) i think it was only are long distent ancessters( there planet was dieing)as ares will at some point,so they sent a capsule out into space with all the making of life,and DNA etc,it came down onto this planet,wher there might have been some type of life at this time,well over time what was in the capsule evolved and made diffrent types of life (whats to say there was not a type of life form before dinosaurs,but they may have been of such a minascule life form that if anything change to quick they became extinct also before the dinosaurs)
Well you see my point we have no idea why we are here there is to many answers we need and we will always ask more questions,who? why? when? what?..
So as you see my owne belife is not of a "god" i belive in one thing,that is we are borne into this life to live(we make of it what we do with what time we are given) are perpouse is to bring life back into the word we wer born into..
So in short your born to live,create life then die..so enjoy your time,do what you wish while your here,and belive as you wish to..
Scott
i think scott was drinking last night :D
i think scott was drinking last night :D
lol between him and chris..... :lol:
scott.parker
14-01-05, 07:58 PM
i think scott was drinking last night :D
No that's just my vew on an idea of how we could of came to have life on this planet,but if your talking religion,well it;s just a way to control a mass of people and brain wash them into thinking there is a so called "god" looking over you,and be good or els!
Its just a way to keep people form running havock,but as proven it dosent always work..
I will never belive in god as others say you need a proof,not just words wrote in books,i mean who wrote them,and how much has it been changed over time,like you say if you tell your kids from birth that the loard of the rings is real,then they belive it,simple really...
I also dont agre with the strcture of what most religions are based around,its a control system..
Thats my veiw,as i say your born to live create life then die,look at a flower it is procreation in it's most simple form!
scott
?Marty?
14-01-05, 08:51 PM
Kill your idols. I follow my own path and am my own God. No matter what framework of society (be it religious, social, family, political and etc) i live in, i am free in myself to exercise the right to think and choose any course of action i take (obviously then i'd face the consequences).
My physical form is only going to be here for a limited time. Whether i believe in God and follow any religion, or not, the choices available to me are still going to be the same.
If there IS a 'God', then the question is - does 'HE' WANT me to follow 'him'? If 'he' did, then the 'wrong' choices would not exist. If they are placed there by 'the devil' to tempt me to stray from following 'God', then 'God' himself is not doing a good job of protecting ME from 'the devil'. Protecting me from making the wrong choices. It is not my 'faith' that is weak. It is 'God', in his failure to MAKE me believe.
Just the fact that there is more than one religion i could CHOOSE to follow, each worshipping 'a different God', shows that it is not even clear as which faith i should even follow. If there IS a 'God', there can only be ONE God.
So WHICH one IS it?
Even if you are religiuos, you can NOT know whether your religion is 'the true representation and wishes of God'.
HOW do i know which religion to select? HOW would i know which one is the TRUE word of 'God'? 'He' did not reveal 'himself' to me. 'He' did not send ME and 'Archangel Gabriel', or pass me 'his' word. 'HE' did not write ANY of the 'religious documents'! It is all written BY MAN.
If 'God' wishes me to follow 'him', 'he' would at the very least show ME which religion i should follow. But 'he' does not. No matter who you talk to, or which 'religious document/word of God' you read, ALL your decisions can only be made based on man-made representations of 'God'.
All the arguments made as to which religion you should follow are made by MAN. How do i know that the man who is trying to convince me that i would be making the right choice and etc, is not infact 'the wicked man acting on the side of the devil'? I can not KNOW this. It is a BLIND decision. And one i will simply not make.
It is 'GOD''s failure in not making me realise that 'he' is REAL, not mine.
I will NOT believe in 'God', unless 'he' MAKES me believe. Is this MY failure? My weakness? No it is not. It is 'HIS' failure ON MY PART.
Just the fact that i have even chosen not to believe, shows that 'he' has failed in the role of 'God' and is weak. I do not, and will not, follow someone who is weak and a failure.
PS - Wisewood, where is your opinion on this matter regarding The Church of Tuna?
scott.parker
14-01-05, 09:28 PM
Kill your idols. I follow my own path and am my own God. No matter what framework of society (be it religious, social, family, political and etc) i live in, i am free in myself to exercise the right to think and choose any course of action i take (obviously then i'd face the consequences).
My physical form is only going to be here for a limited time. Whether i believe in God and follow any religion, or not, the choices available to me are still going to be the same.
If there IS a 'God', then the question is - does 'HE' WANT me to follow 'him'? If 'he' did, then the 'wrong' choices would not exist. If they are placed there by 'the devil' to tempt me to stray from following 'God', then 'God' himself is not doing a good job of protecting ME from 'the devil'. Protecting me from making the wrong choices. It is not my 'faith' that is weak. It is 'God', in his failure to MAKE me believe.
Just the fact that there is more than one religion i could CHOOSE to follow, each worshipping 'a different God', shows that it is not even clear as which faith i should even follow. If there IS a 'God', there can only be ONE God.
So WHICH one IS it?
Even if you are religiuos, you can NOT know whether your religion is 'the true representation and wishes of God'.
HOW do i know which religion to select? HOW would i know which one is the TRUE word of 'God'? 'He' did not reveal 'himself' to me. 'He' did not send ME and 'Archangel Gabriel', or pass me 'his' word. 'HE' did not write ANY of the 'religious documents'! It is all written BY MAN.
If 'God' wishes me to follow 'him', 'he' would at the very least show ME which religion i should follow. But 'he' does not. No matter who you talk to, or which 'religious document/word of God' you read, ALL your decisions can only be made based on man-made representations of 'God'.
All the arguments made as to which religion you should follow are made by MAN. How do i know that the man who is trying to convince me that i would be making the right choice and etc, is not infact 'the wicked man acting on the side of the devil'? I can not KNOW this. It is a BLIND decision. And one i will simply not make.
It is 'GOD''s failure in not making me realise that 'he' is REAL, not mine.
I will NOT believe in 'God', unless 'he' MAKES me believe. Is this MY failure? My weakness? No it is not. It is 'HIS' failure ON MY PART.
Just the fact that i have even chosen not to believe, shows that 'he' has failed in the role of 'God' and is weak. I do not, and will not, follow someone who is weak and a failure.
PS - Wisewood, where is your opinion on this matter regarding The Church of Tuna?
Well done marty,glad your better at wording things then me on this type of subject :wink:
I could not agree more with you on your words such as this part...
[Just the fact that i have even chosen not to believe, shows that 'he' has failed in the role of 'God' and is weak. I do not, and will not, follow someone who is weak and a failure.]
scott
scotty, the last 2 lines of ur thread are exactly what i was going to type.
this so-called "god" is supposed to be some "great" leader, but IMO he/she/it is a failure. the reason being, if he/she/it were "great" then why does'nt every body beleive in in he/she/it?
why would god let natuaral disasters happen (some of you will say "to make room on earth for new offspring" etc, i no this) but APPARENTLY didnt he start the "noah's ark" phroecey/plan/general idea?? i.e. trying to save all creature's great and small?
?Marty?
15-01-05, 01:39 PM
If 'God' was real, choosing which religion you should follow is like playing Roulette.
I don't like to gamble.
Shall i put it on red or black? lol Apart from there are far more options, with only the possibility of ONE or NONE being the 'winning' one.
Man tells you which one you should pick, but he does not KNOW. You can only find out 'in the end'. And if you don't find out 'in the end', then there is no point whatsoever in being religious.
Even as Atheists, many people still indirectly subscribe to and follow religious principles. I see it a far more important choice as to whether you are going to be a 'good' person or a 'bad' person, than as to whether you are going to be religious or not.
Also, the whole concept of 'heaven' and 'hell' is flawed. If you are good, you go to 'heaven'. This is a 'reward'. If you are bad, you go to 'hell'. This is a 'punishment' and a deterrant to being 'bad'.
Why would 'the Devil' punish you for not believing in 'God'? Surely 'he' would also reward you?
A bad persons acts are seen as 'acts of the devil' by religious people, so surely his actual religious punishment would be only not getting into 'heaven', but then the devil would reward him for being bad rather than punish him.
Either way, there is a reward. lol
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