View Full Version : 1.6 T40 - Building begins, Advice needed.
riight, im starting to push on with the 1.6 T40.
I've got a 1.6 8v engine.
I've got some twin Dellorto's, magolesti (sp) inlet manifold,throttle linkages,alternator bracket all lined up (havn't bought them yet)
Fueling wise, am i right in thinking i will onyl need an Electronic Fuel pump (due to me having a carb tank, and the current 1.2 pump is on the cam cover) and a fuel pressure regulator ? (if so, can anyone suggest any specifics)
ignition wise, i've been informed that i could use a Kent cam (with the dizzy drive type's machined into the end of it), with my existing 1.2 ignition, distributor e.t.c (MD suggested this) would i recieve any power loss doing this ?
engine wise, i'm going for a Blydenstein big valve head e.t.c (the ?400'ish one)
apart from this, i'm stumped on the bottom end and gearbox. and i need to know what to get done to it. I was thinking an Overbore, New pistons, Lightened/balanced Crank/flywheel, new bearings gaskets. ARP bolts .. any suggestions ? some greater info on this would be appreciated, as i'm no mechanic.
gearbox wise.. i was going to leave it as standard. or do i REALLY need a performance clutch, LSD !?
thanks for the help
(the work is being done at a motorsport engineering company, but i really need to know what to tell them to do, to avoid getting ripped off, and so they know where to start lol)
Thanks again, Nick
p.s
i'm hoping to acheieve reasonably high power i.e 130-140bhp
Aragorn
11-01-05, 12:19 AM
u can probably get away with your engine mounted pump imo
i'd suggest using the 1.4sr system as its a better bosch system producing a more powerful spark than the 1.2/1.3 stuff
as for the bottom end it depends how much u want to spend - general rebuild with rebore and new pistons etc is recommended imo, get the crank checked etc too
if u wanna be high revving then i'd suggest ARP bolts as a must (these are NOT required for high power but simply high RPMs and its been said that the std bolts can be a bit weak for even the standard 6800rpm, however ive also heard that the majority of the strength increase probably comes from the chamfer in the end cap bolt holes as this means less stress is placed on the corners of the bolt head which is usually where it snaps, ie a new set of standard bolts with the 1mm chamfer on the end cap might be just as good as arp's but i dont know the price difference)
as for the gearbox it depends on your $$$ and driving style/vehicle use
some people would opt for a CR cluster with a 418 FD ratio but although its ideal for track/sprint/"fast road" use for any kinda motorway cruising this wouldnt be ideal, LSD is probably a good thing in any high powered nova tbh
bottom end wise.. i don't want to be spending more than 1k. once all the other parts have been added on (carbs,head,cam e.t.c) it all adds up.
i think anymore than that, and it's a little excessive. I have a rough idea on labour/parts costs, but i don't really know what i can get for 1k lol
It's going to be sat at home when i'm at uni unfortunatly. used when i come home, and i'l hopefully be taking it to track days/meets/ shows e.t.c next year.. so it's going to be used like a second car really.
As i said, i don't want silly (jim style) performance, but something with a bit of a kick would be nice.
I think the bottom end only needs to go as far as having a strong solid rebuild, squeezing out a bit more power,confortable at revving a bit higher than normal. again, nothing massivly excessive.
i've priced up paddle clutchs, LSD's and really they're out of the price range for me. as i can't go spending all my gap-years money.
also, i plan to use some small 30hp nitrous jets tapped into the inlet manifold. (pro setup e.t.c) so i'd like the engine built strongly for peace of mind :-)
Aragorn
11-01-05, 09:40 AM
well if u look at dan/oxfords setup its resonably streight forward and as uve probably heard with dns car gives very good results
dan and oxford are basically running 1650 (or maybe 1638 not 100% sure) engines with b+ head, kent ast2 and some 40's
dan has had some more advanced bottom end work like lightning and balancing but this is more for reliability (oxfords engine was 138bhp on velos rollers and dans run 142)
i'd suggest a rebore (?80ish), new pistons at +1mm (80-100ish), get the crank checked and reground or polished as neccesary ?40 at most i'd imagine then u want new bearings all round so set aside say 100 for that (doubt it will be that much but itsa always an idea to have some extra)
if u can stretch to it it might be an idea to get some shotpeening done on the rods and new/arp bolts fitted so u can take the revs up a bit and possibly lightened and balanced flywheel
couple that with the B+ head (~?500) and the kent ast2 (~?200)
carbs will be around 2-300 inlet manifold is about 100 then say another ?200 for rolling road session
tbh if u can afford to spend 1k on the bottom end after evertything else it might be ani dea to do the stuff above to get the reliability and you'll prolly have enough left over to buy an LSD and/or a decent clutch (on a side note im not sure how the std clutch would handle 140bhp but i would guess it would be fine as long as its in decent condition)
Snowface
11-01-05, 11:49 AM
you don't need an electronic fuel pump.
the mech one is more than enough. what yo do need is a regulator between the pump and the carb's to bring pressure down to 3psi.
move the cr box and diff to the top of your shopping list,
rednova
11-01-05, 08:55 PM
it depends on what 1.6 engine you have - if its a gte/gsi you'll need the pump as the pump is mounted near the tanks on these, the hole on the engine isnt there. if its one from a cav/astra then the regulator will be all you need.
I bought both facet fuel pump and regulator for ?100 delivered, probably could have got them cheaper but couldnt be bothered with the hassle etc.
phil
thanks for the help aaragorn, it's very much appreciated.
basically, i had the day off, so i went down to my local motorsport retail shop (sell bucket seats, cam kits e.t.c) and talked to the owner, he raced and builds formula fords. And he's offered to do it for me (much to my suprise, he's usually very busy)
he basically advised, getting a full AST2 cam kit (cam, followers,valve springs,gasket set , and something else , i've forgotten)
headwise, he has said that the amount a blydenstien head costs, he could do one that'd come out about 4hp less, but for basically free (as long as i purchase all parts from him) from his expirience he's said almost all the heads he's seen done recently have been nearly mirror like polished, and he said it's bad , due to a Slightly rough wall, tumbles and rolls the air, giving better fuel atomisation.
bottom end wise, he's just said he'd just clean it out, skim/rebore it, new pistons if it's rebored. then just new seals, bearings, balance the crank flywheel and leave it at that. He said exactly the same as you about the chamfer thingy on the standard bolts.
then he'l strip my carbs (when i get them) and stick some trumpets on, make sure they're jetted up.
Gearbox whise, i reckon i'l be ok, as it's not going to be Massive power that i'm achieving.
it depends on what 1.6 engine you have - if its a gte/gsi you'll need the pump as the pump is mounted near the tanks on these, the hole on the engine isnt there.
the hole you mention is there its just where the SAD sits
right thanks burgo, that's great !
so i can just remove the SAD, slot in a new mechanical fuel pump (they cost pennies) and then i would just need a pressure regulator ! :-)
good work !
exactly remove the SAD as you wont need this anyway and its mounting bracket looking all shiny in my pic and bolt on the fuel pump
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RQANA9wTUpjix6e1WFXW*neLD5CKc5WFsswZrKMGfLX7!SgA7 bau6SSoUi3OlRID!K7FD4J9FdA*IWSgwUVgSt0GvVP1NhLDonT m7hcs*Wo/DSCN0141.JPG?dc=4675505464567282761
im not 100% sure if all the 1.6 injection cams have got the fuel pump take off but i know mine has and mine is an e16se
well technically i'm ordering a full kent cam kit. don't know if that will change things
rednova
11-01-05, 10:26 PM
I stand corrected then - I have a gsi engine and when I removed the SAD? it was blanked off, as i was hoping to use the mechanical fuel pump. Oh well, good luck!!!!
phil
burgo, fancy selling me your GSi engine please :-)
which one lol, when i take delivery of a couple more ill have three complete spare ones lmao, i love being greedy
burgo, fancy selling me your GSi engine please :-)
scott parker has one for sale
Aragorn
12-01-05, 11:40 AM
u cant drive a mech fuel pump from a 1.6 cam carrier as even tho that thing is bolted on, there is no hole underneath it for the cam lobe to stick thru
simply replace your GTE pump with a FSE interrupter pump positioned near the tank and then fit pressure regulator to the carbs
if u cant get a GTE tank then use a 1.2i tank and pump
also upon assembly, STOP pushing when the torque wrench clicks ;)
MC told me to add this
Use the 1.2 cam carrier and a 1.2 mechanical fuel pump. will save you about ?100 ;)
ok thanks cambridge,
so by using the 1.2 Cam carrier, and mech fuel pump. I still go and buy the same KENT AST2 kit !? as i was planning to before (it's cheaper mail order)
also, whats the difference between getting the Kit and just the cam, obviously i know what parts you get with it. but what proportion of people get the cam or the kit ?
as on most features, it just says cam. is this a kit or the cam on it's own !? lol
sorry, i'm just a bit conufsed. as i said, i am no master mechanic.
a kit "should" have new hydraulic lifters, new followers, but they arent as strong as GM ones, but in most applications they are fine. some kits have stiffer valve springs and you usually get cam lube, a sticker and a timing disc too. the kit is a good idea, but not vital if the top end is in good working order
as for the ast2 having the pump lobe, it "should" do. but your best off asking kent first. i know jim is running his on the mech pump, but im not sure which cam he has.
i just looked on a piper 285 that i have in my room, and thats not got the mech pump lobe on it, unless the lobe has mega tiny lift lol
yep, that's all included... by the sounds of it.. shouldn't i be better off buying the Cam and valve springs.
Then using orignial GM lifters/followers or even some uprated ones ? (could you suggest what uprated ones i would be able to aquire)
And, your gonna hate me for this, what's the cop with vernier pully's ? :-) i've heard so many conflicting opinions. I presume they are Cam pullies lol.
i'l PM jim and ask him about his cam.
Thanks cambridge.
just stick with GM followers and maybe recon your set of hydraulic lifters. the only real "uprated" lifters are the solid ones which are ?250 a set lol
um as for verniers, red is for power, blue is for torque (kidding)
its swings and roundabouts. yes you can run just a regular cam pulley and be happy, or modify the std pulley and essentially have a free vernier. OR buy a "proper" one. your call really.
atleat thats an after thought add on. eg run with std pulley, and then find you wish to try the vernier, its only a 30 mins job or what ever to swap it.
oh and bin the auto tensioner on the cam beslt, and get the 1.2 blet. saves the belt dancing all over the pullies
my piper 285 cam drive's my fuel pump. whe i spoke to kent they said all their cam's for the nova will fit in any of the engines. the dizzy drive is universal and it has a lobe for the pump
-Bruce-
12-01-05, 08:32 PM
Yeh the lift on the cam lobe for the fuel pump is very small.
And as benji says The cams are universal for all engine and dizzy conections.
And Jim is running a piper 300degree cam, this needs uprated valve springs. I also have this cam for my engine.
Bruce
oh right thanks.
I've just secured my set of Dellorta DHLA twin 40's, with a magolesti(sp) inlet manifold, alternator bracket, fuel pressure regulator, alternator belt, throttle cable and linkage !
bargain
The Piper 300 doesn't need anything uprated.
All of the aftermarket cams come with a pump lobe and can fit either dizzy type. Saves them money to only have one cast!
MC
Forgot to add:
Don't buty a full kit, the components are overpriced. Parts from the motor factor will be good enough. Unless you have knackered lifters use what you have and keep the standard springs. Use new followers, if you can afford it get GM ones as the cast quality is better and the design is stronger. They don't wear very quickly either, but they are v.expensive so like I said motor factor ones are ok and lets face it, most people don't keep there nova long and if they do it normally has new engine every 5v minutes!
-Bruce-
13-01-05, 11:34 AM
The Piper 300 doesn't need anything uprated.
I was under the impression that it needed uprated valve springs, not doubles just high strength singles. As the lift on that cam is 12mm and thats alot compared to standard lift.
I could be wrong though. I take it that you fitted one on standrad springs and you got no valve bounce? I have not fitted mine yet so dont know!!
Bruce
Correct I have fitted the piper 300 on standard springs followers and lifter with no sign of valve bounce. The current setup makes peak power well before 7k rpm anyway so wouldn't be an issue.
MC
nathan.
13-01-05, 06:23 PM
i have the piper 300 deg cam aswell, i haven't uprated the springs. had it for over a year now, its had a good thrashing. no problems
-Bruce-
14-01-05, 08:53 AM
Thanks for the info guys. I have uprated valve spings sitting in the garage so i will fit them anyway. But there will be no truoble if you never got valve bounce on std springs. Cheers
Bruce
Doesn't hurt to have and will give you peace of mind.
MC
Snowface
14-01-05, 11:30 PM
when i got my new kent ast2k kit it came with cam, springs and followers (and Lube) :wink: .
used standard lifters and works fine. the ast3 needs solid lifters i think. cause hydraulic ones won't take a lot of rev's comparitivley.
-Bruce-
15-01-05, 11:42 AM
the ast3 needs solid lifters i think. cause hydraulic ones won't take a lot of rev's comparitivley.
This is true, well as the Kent manual states!!
I was thinking about a ast3 or nvo63.
Bruce
Snowface
17-01-05, 05:36 PM
Use the 1.2 cam carrier and a 1.2 mechanical fuel pump. will save you about ?100 ;)
i thought you can't use the 1.2 carrier because the 1.6 block doesn't have an oil seperator.
Use the block and head from the 1600.
Use the cam carrier, oil seperator, fuel pump from the 1.2.
It is really very simple. Just think of the 1.6 bare engine as a 1.2 with bigger valves, stroke and bore, and bolt everything from your 1.2 to it. People make it sound so complicated! If you are good enough to strip and build an engine then you should be ok with interchanging all the parts you need and using logic to find out what fits and what doesn't. There is no substitute for just doing it!
It is nice that people care enough to warn of possible difficulties, but if you are unsure then adding advice can just scare someone going into a build.
MC
u cant drive a mech fuel pump from a 1.6 cam carrier as even tho that thing is bolted on, there is no hole underneath it for the cam lobe to stick thru
simply replace your GTE pump with a FSE interrupter pump positioned near the tank and then fit pressure regulator to the carbs
if u cant get a GTE tank then use a 1.2i tank and pump
Mine ran fine off the mech pump, GTE lump running twin 40's.
Bolted it on and off I went.
thanks MC.
im not personally building the engine, someone is doing it for me. And i thought it'd be better of me to go in with some clue about it all.
As he's a ford man, i'd like to defend the vauxhall corner a bit :-)
he will probably come up with using the 1.2 cam carrier and oil seperator e.t.c but now i'l get there first.
Snowface
18-01-05, 03:40 PM
Use the block and head from the 1600.
Use the cam carrier, oil seperator, fuel pump from the 1.2.
It is really very simple. Just think of the 1.6 bare engine as a 1.2 with bigger valves, stroke and bore, and bolt everything from your 1.2 to it. People make it sound so complicated! If you are good enough to strip and build an engine then you should be ok with interchanging all the parts you need and using logic to find out what fits and what doesn't. There is no substitute for just doing it!
It is nice that people care enough to warn of possible difficulties, but if you are unsure then adding advice can just scare someone going into a build.
MC
the oil seperator is the same thing as the crankcase breather isn't it? where the fat pipe comes from that goes into standard air-filter.
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