handling

[m.d.]

this is a very asked question but what do people think.

im trying to get my car to hadle well but its a nightmare.
so far ive:- fitted poly bushes
fitted fully adjustable avo coilovers
fitted strut braces all round
removed the anti roll bar, (which did help)
strenghtened the bottom arms
done the camber mod
fitted 16/195/45 wheels and good tyres (AVONs)
had all the tracking done

and its still not that brilliant arround corners. well im comparing it to my mums diesel clio which has buiscuit wheels and looks like its on stilts, (totaly standard) which feels like its on rails arround roundabouts

is there anything else i can do or am i just going to have to put up with it

[epo]

what about fittin a full roll cage that'd stiffen the shell up even more

[m.d.]

done that lol

and the shell is fully stitch welded in all the right places.

im kinda having a change of heart tho as it rained for the first time today since i fitted the suspension and wheels and it still handles well. maybe it will handle better if i just try and push it harder. :twisted:

[Stuart]

i read in a "handling" book that


"if the car feels like its on rails, then your not going fast enough" lol

[m.d.]

lol

trust me the nova doesnt feel like its on rails. more like an ice rink. ive kinda got to drive it like a rear wheel drive as the arse end allways trys to take over the front

[S_Gault]

if you use coilovers, you must set the corner weights,

By having adjustable componets means for those that dont posses the skill and equipment to set up things like thrust angle deviation /castor and set back, it'll never handle.

Take it to someone who works at competition cars for a living

Steven

[m.d.]

the bloke who owns the shop i got them from is going to set them up for me as he knows much more than i do about setting up suspension

[S_Gault]

id go on race pedegree but if he knows what hes doing, then it should make a good difference.

Steven

[m.d.]

hes a rally driver and co driver so he knows his stuff apparently. but to be honnest i think ive got it now as its handling lovely. i had the front set way to hard i think

[burgo]

to b onist if ur rear end is far to light i would say it was the rear is to hard but still take it to a pro

[m.d.]

spoke to the bloke yesturday and he tolt me plain ans simple. "its the engine.....get rid of it and get a 16v corsa 1.6 :| " he is still goin to do his best but he doesnt hopld much hope as the engine is far to heavy and WILL cause the car to "not turn in" as i want. bit of a bummer but i spose i was told before i put it in. :cry:

oh well better get on and rear wheel drive the thing. that should make it more interesting. :wink:

[Philsutton]

too heavy my arse, my 2lt handles very well indeed, why do people think that a 2litre 16v nova cant go round corners?

[benji]

because the cornes they uesd to go round flat out in a 1.4 they now go round quicker with the 2l and end up in the ditch

[mowgli]

a kid I work with has a lowered stiffened corsa b on 215/35 r18 tyres. couldn't understand why it felt crap. he had looked at the sidewalls (it read max pressure 51 psi) so he stuck 50 psi in all four tyres. I got him to lower them to 25 psi as a start and adjust them till he liked it. mind you, it is only a 1.2.

[rysmee]

have you changed standard nova steering rack? or fitted a slightly smaller steering wheel?
these will both help get the car more to your taste.
not enough people realise that the steering will play a major part in how the car feels to you, as that is the major link between you and the road.
a quick rack would help get your front end in more positivly and then hopefully the rear will follow.
as you say your rear keeps trying to overtake the front..maybe your going to fast into corners?!! slow in..on the power..fast out....

[S_Gault]

jesus, ive never read as much shite...

if the back over takes the front youve got toe out on the back wheels,

Castor angle and front toe control the turn in, the rack ratio has nothing to do with it.

One point to look out for here though that i just seen today on a wee rally car in the workshop concerns the toe out on turns- make sure they are the same, otherwise it'll never feel right.

Steven

[MC]

Toe on the rear wheels does contol how the back end follows through the corner, but I believe M.D. has it as standard, therefore the toe will be quite neutral. The problem is more likely to be damping and spring rates. A stripped out Nova is very light on the back, which makes it vulnerable to bumps on corners. Most people thathave adjustable suspension expect to just wind up the damping to dial out body roll and all will be ok, but in reality, firming up the damping on the rear will just make the back end skittish over bumps. Not a problem on a lovely smooth race track, but on the UK roads, hit a bumpy section going round a bend and it will chuck you around. CP's car is the best handling Nova that I have driven. It is perfect on the race track and smooth roads, but still a nightmare on the rough lanes. What you will find though, is that a car that is slightly loose at the back will be much quicker round the track than the one that understeers through the bend. I beleive also that the person who mentioned a quick rack said that it would improve the driving feel, not cure the problem.

MC

[S_Gault]

i totally agree .

i set all my cars and customers racers with parallel at both ends.

I run different tracking at different events, coz at the end of the day Ive 8K worth of kit that i use and i know its right afterwards.

The rally cars thou I set up more stable coz no-one has lanes like we do in Ireland!!!

Steven

[M_U_T_A_N_T21]

i find spax suspension is the best ive had 2 cars with spax springs and dampers and the handling was shit hot my second car was a cavalier gsi and that is a big car really and it shot round bends but ive found alot of other cars ive owned have been lowered the same but different make suspension and it hasnt really been that good also a mate of mine has a corsa with spax springs and dampers with 16s and it grips like shit but then im not saying spax is the best cus ive never tried every suspension in the world

[krobinson]

Because i run my Nova so low, the rear end doesnt have alot of travel, and on a rough corner it used to throw the back end out!

On really smooth corners tho, it stuck to the road almost as good as my mates old Mini!

Also.. tyre's could have alot to do with it, if you run shit tyres you simply wont have as good of grip! And this could cause the rear to step out too! Just another option to try out?

Keith

[mowgli]

there are lanes in leicestershire that make irish lanes look like a motorway. I have only driven in rep of ireland, not the north. the roads were fun but maintained better than ours.

I would like to open up a big can of worms
Are we mixing up roadholding and handling??????????????

racing and rally drivers will always set up a car to make it go faster for their particular event. If it feels crap in testing but can shave 1/2 a second from their previous best they will go for it.
Handling for a road car is probably more to do with the drivers enjoyment of how the car feels when going up the road.
some people actually want their car to wheelspin every time they set off from the lights. others prefer nice reassuring understeer round corners, a lot of drivers have never driven rwd or experienced oversteer.

we all want a different thing from our cars. personally, my car is lowered about 30mm on a spax kit with 185/60r14s. it has std tracking settings. i like it that way. but i liked it on 165/70r13s with no antiroll bars and std springs but that was 10 years ago.

[S_Gault]

well said that man!!

(handling and roadholding!!)

2 of the hills i compete on are now too dangerous.. road subsiding, and breaking up (spelga dam being one).

Steven

[Barn]

ahem...i think our welsh lanes are hard to beat boys :D

[nova_rally]

ahem...i think our welsh lanes are hard to beat boys :D

Agreed! NOTHING comes close to a Welsh Road Rally, Potholes are all part of the fun, as are blind yumps into 90 rights and tight downhill hairpins. (ahh, memories! :lol: )

Out on one tonight, over in Corwen of anybody fancies an excursion to prove it!

Alan

[m.d.]

deffo agrea with the welsh bumpyness. i used to race downhill mountain bikes and the best hills we raced were there.

ive just spoken to a person who races a escort cosworth rally car and PROFESIONALLY sets up suspension. he has told me to get 250 weight springs on the front and 300 on the back. apparently i am using too much of the shock to do the hardnes and not the springs. he explained to me that ALL suspension sold for fast road and occasionally race is sent from the factory with the intension to cause understeer rather than oversteer, as what they call boy racers etc would not know what to when the rear end comes arround at high speed and would possibly crash and try to claim from the companys who sold the suspension. this is why the spring rates are too soft and many of us rely on the shock to do the hardness.

i am going to get the springs soon and see how it goes

[rysmee]

all i'm trying to get across is the fact that the handling of a particullar car is never going to be to everyones liking, as each person will have a different style,
and unless you are going for serious track days - or racing, whats the point of having the debate about all this toe in at the rear, and proper suspension set-ups, as its not going to make a blind bit of difference on the every day road.
so if your driving round on the public roads on the limit of every corner- which is just stupid, then surely money would be better spent on race tuition to improve skills of the driver- and enhancing the performance of the car in hand?

[S_Gault]

md.. was that a wee dig at me..

well go have a look at the numbers of cars that have won championships from my fold..

saying that.. he is correct thou. but the angles can be set to induce oversteer too.. he would know that if he was a pro..

and a 4wd cossie has a lot of similarities in its suspension design to a nova!! not

Steven

[S_Gault]

Rysmee, has a lot of sense in what he has said above,

the only thing i would say to add to it is that the rear toe does have a dramatic influence.. and if you dont believe me.. change it and see but dont blame me when you swap ends at the first bend.

ignore my slabouring above.. having a hard time in workshop at minute with ex-John Clelland touring car.

Steven

[MC]

I agree with the fact that toe makes a huge difference, CP and I have started playing with rear end settings, and have made a few interesting discoveries.

I also agree with Rysmee. On the track, CP's car is fantastic, but for road driving, I prefer my Passat Sport Estate. Its comfortable, doesn't roll too much, soaks up the bumps, and you don't have to grip the steering wheel to stop the car from darting from side to side. On the race track though, it would be an embarrassment. Its a pitty that not everyone can have a pro set there car up especially for them, more people would enjoy driving, and the roads would probably be safer. I do prefer a car that feels safe on the road, than one that feels fast (most of the time :wink: )

MC

[S_Gault]

well said.

a good point in question here is a customer of mine has a tommi makenin evo 6.. awesome road car..

but we recently took it to the circuit and it laps slower than my race mini by over 2 seconds!

Steven

[acf8181]

so if your driving round on the public roads on the limit of every corner- which is just stupid,

- ROFLMAO -you know why ;)

anyway...

there seems to be a lot of contradictions going on here...

m.d. - you say in one of your first posts that the arse end is all over the place. but then you say that your mate softened the front damping. that would normally give the vehicle more oversteer.

would i be right in saying that what originally was happening was that you didn't have enough front end grip, so the front was sliding wide, then you would lift off, which is the what caused the rear to step out?

you don't wanna be lifting the throttle mid corner in FWD, that will always cause you to have an oversteer moment. if you find you don't have enough front end grip, so you're being forced to lift mid corner, then your priority should be to find more front end grip so you can keep your foot in and keep the rear under control.

the way clio cup racers are set up is so they have almost no oversteer, you can then keep you foot in on corners and keep the rear under control. if you lift mid corner in one of those you'll have to start looking where you're going through your rear view mirror immdiately!

with steering, the quicker rack you have or smaller steering wheel you have will make the car feel more pointy or oversteery as you will be able to apply to steering much quicker..and if you aren't smooth with it you will be unsettling the car. but when used smoothly you'll find the car really nice and responsive, and will go where you want it. form my experiences of nova's, they have very sluggish steering as standard so a mod like this (or adding camber) will make it feel a lot better.