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View Full Version : My views on Iraq and the Middle East



Alex
13-05-04, 12:54 PM
I?m surprised that it hasn?t been mentioned yet, but I?m sure that it would have come up somewhere. This topic may cause unintentional offence but it is not written for this purpose. It is not a dig at any race, religion or culture. I just want to express my personal feeling about a part of today?s political and economical environment with respect to Iraq. This has been my opinion for quite a while now however until now I haven?t articulated it openly. I have written this as a kind of release for all of my pent up feelings. If any admin think this post in inappropriate please feel free to delete it (although this did take me a very long time to write!).

Where should I start? Before the start of Gulf war II I think the vast majority of people in the world agreed that Saddam was an evil tyrant. He killed people on a mass scale simply because they were from a different race of people. This is called genocide and there is no excuse for it. In my opinion he should have been removed from power after the first gulf war but then again it is easy to say now.

A lot of people believe that America had a hidden agenda when going into Iraq. This may well be true. I think that they did although I?m not really sure what it really was. I was actually asked this question at a certain interview and what my opinion about it was. I cannot say what interview but I?m sure you can guess! The fact is that Saddam?s dictatorship had to be ended in one way or another. He was keeping himself in power by killing all opposition which is clearly wrong. He has killed thousands of people. Removing him however is obviously not a quick, simple task. There were people who supported Saddam, but we must remember that the majority were forced to support him.

When the coalition came into Iraq it appeared that they were welcomed by most people in the street with open arms. Whether this was genuine or whether people just went with it I am not sure. The attitude towards the coalition has changed dramatically over the months. I believe this is from both propaganda from Saddam?s loyal supporters and also from the attitude and treatment that some coalition soldiers have taken towards the people of Iraq. I also believe that it is the frustration of the Iraqis for not being able to get back to a normal life which is quite understandable.

Now I am going to diverse a bit. A lot of people are bringing religion into this topic. I really can?t fully understand why. I believe that people do hide behind their religion at times. In fact I think all major wars have had differences in religion involved. I personally have no religion but I would stand up and fight for peoples? rights to believe in whatever they want within reason. I say within reason as a belief in something that brings harm to others or the forcing your belief onto others is wrong. You should also respect other peoples? beliefs. I personally agree with many of the ?rules? that have been laid down by different religions on how to lead life. I do not however believe that religious writings should be taken word for word. The reason for this is that they are very old and have been passed down and translated many, many times. Also have you ever seen a car accident and heard from both sides on what happened? The accounts will be very different. Now multiply that thousands of times in many different languages! Therefore I believe that most of these are as a whole a good guide on how to live your life. I especially like Buddhists love of all things living.
So then back on subject why has religion been brought into removing an evil dictator from Iraq? I am not really sure on this and I may be wrong but I believe that it is because people see a nation of a different/multiple religions going after an individual of one religion and they take this as an act of persecution against their religion. I honestly think people are blinded by their religion at times and forget what their religion stands for. This can be clearly seen when Hitler was persecuting the Jews. He thought (although was disillusioned) that he was protecting his nation and religion by doing what he did. However does it not say in the teachings of the bible that firstly ?Thou shalt not kill?, ?Love thy neighbour? and that you should respect other peoples beliefs? He was breaking his own religions rules by his acts. This is most certainly wrong. This is on a very large scale but can be applied elsewhere, especially in the modern Middle East.

I find religion very interesting and have spoken to friends of different religions. I have learnt a lot about Islam in particular recently and have agreed that as a whole it is a peace loving religion. However as always you do have in almost every religion people who use it for their own purposes. Look at N Ireland and Hitler which are examples of ?extremist Christians? before classing all followers of Islam as ?extremist Muslims?.

In a culture where it is perfectly legal to walk down the street with an AK-47 in your hand, firing into the air you have to expect there to be more violence than somewhere where guns are outlawed. The coalition?s soldiers are not used to this and so are understandably nervous around a lot of Iraqis. This however does not warrant rash actions and decisions.

I believe that the media have played a very important role in this war. I blame them for a lot of the actions taken during this ?war? and also afterwards. I believe that Eastern television channels can be seen to encourage racial hatred against the West and are very bias. However I also think a channel like CNN is almost, if not just as bad. The number of processes that a story goes through before it is viewed means that when it is presented many facts are hidden or blown out of proportion. Media has become a way in which opposing sides can communicate. If the media wasn?t involved so much I believe that kidnappings and beheadings would be vastly reduced. However if it wasn?t for the media we wouldn?t have found out about the appalling treatment of Iraqi prisoners by the Americans. Once again though people have used this and have created fake pictures to use as propaganda. The media highlights the ?bad people? on both sides which does encourage racial hatred on a large scale.

The recent beheading of a US person has led me to look into the extremists? views and justifications of an action like this. I was on an extremist website last night and the main factor that was being discussed as to whether it was justified was who employed the man. Was he a civilian contractor or military contractor? Quite frankly in my opinion this has NOTHING to do with whether this can be justified. At the end of the day he was there to help to set up communication antennae which are part of the rebuilding Iraq. I?m not really sure what they hope to achieve. If they simply want the coalition forces in the country to leave then acts like that are just keeping the forces there for longer. Are they fighting against the creation of a democracy? What do they want instead? Their true objectives are not really very clear. I can fully understand that they want coalition troops out of the country but then what? However we must not mix up opinions of extremists with the opinions of normal Iraqi people even though on certain topics opinions may be the same.

In my personal opinion I think the whole issue in the Middle East is the intolerance of other peoples? cultures and traditions on many sides. Many of people have died due to this stupid reason. This makes me sick. I may however be completely wrong. Who knows?

I welcome anyone else?s opinions on this topic or any criticisms/answers to any I have stated. Or you can just leave this topic blank and just let it drop down. Like I said at the top, I wrote this for me.

If you read all that you have far too much time on your hands (I obviously do to write the bugger lol)

Stuart
13-05-04, 01:05 PM
good read, yes im busy at work lol.

dont you find it intresting to know that the "holyest" of places for 3 major religions is the exact same place!!! Temple Mount, no wonder there is unrest, and taht its come to violent means.


as for the war(s) yes it was right, but the reasons we were told were wrong.

there is no right and wrong answer to solve this problem, but something very nasty (well more so than at the start of this week :( ) will happen and it will push for a fresh idea to solve it.

lots of peace love and stuff to you all.

Dai-o
13-05-04, 01:18 PM
How can you stop people (extremists) when they believe they are doing the right thing...?

Terrible news about that poor american bloke. :evil:

I think the war was right IMHO, I obviously feel for the families of the people who have died fighting for their country but that is what they were prepared to do (they confirmed that on 'the dotted line').
To be honest though i don't know what they are going to go do now over in Iraq to make it peaceful. will it ever be??

all the best.

Jules
13-05-04, 02:12 PM
No country will ever be peaceful - even this country isn't 'peaceful' but we have an acceptable level of peace, where by and large, people get on and we all walk in the same direction, you'll always get those that go against the grain and cause disruption (Soho bombings a few years back for example) but thankfully in this country, and most others around the world, it's generally peaceful.

Should we of gone to war with Iraq? Hard question to answer and also the motives behind it - if WMD's had been found (Or are found) then it's unquestionable. However nothing has been found as of yet but this doesn't mean they don't exist, only Saddam really knows the answer to that and there's no way he's gonna tell the truth.
A lot of people say that we went to war for the oil - I'm not a subscriber to this way of thinking, the US, UK, Australia, Spain and all the other countrys that helped out are financally secure enough to buy oil, and the residents of those nations are willing to pay the prices for that oil - that's proven by the fact petrol goes up all the time yet we still buy it, if we weren't prepared to pay the higher costs people wouldn't buy it.

Back to my first point, should we of gone to war? Well we all know that Saddam was a ruthless dictator who surrounded himself with people just like himself - look at his two sons - both as bad as him but without the power over an entire country.
If Saddam had of been killed without a war (be it by natural causes or otherwise) there would of been plenty of people queing up to fill his shoes that are just as evil as him, so in a way, going to war and getting rid of him and his regime should be seen as a good thing, but again, should we of gone to war? Yes it's good that him and his mob are gone and out of power, but should we of got involved? Should we of just left them to it and turned a blind eye? I'm not sure.
As most people will know, the whole thing really took on a whole new front following 9/11, which really drove it home in the most extreme way just how certain parts of the east feel about the west - this was one hell of a wake up call, and as such has opened many peoples eyes and made them hate Muslims generally - this is wrong, there are extremesists within every culture and religion (Look at the BNP) but you can't tar everyone with the same brush like many have since 9/11.

The media, yes they play a huge part in wars, because they are pretty much the only way we have of knowing what's going on, the internet is a wonderful thing full of news and information which can be used for good, but as we've seen this week it can also be used for evil - the beheading of the US civilian engineer is brutal and in humaine, yes decapitation is one of the most effective 'painless' ways to kill someone as opposed to hanging or gassing but from what I've heard (Not seen) they didn't just cut his head clean off, it was sawn off with a big knife and took at least 15 seconds (plus it took 4 men to hold him down) - is that fair revenge for a US guard walking a POW around on a dog leash? No, is that fair revenge for a US guard pointing at a naked POW's privates? No. Nothing the the coallition has done to POW's that we've seen has deserved that.
And remember, those Iraqi's POW's are just that - Prisoners Of War, they partcipated in a war, they weren't building antenna's they were activaly taking part in a war - In WWII there were horrific scenes of torture inflicted by the Nazi's and Japanesse but I doubt even they would of decapitatted a civilian who was trying to help their own country.

On a last point ('cos I've gone on hell of a lot longer than I planned to) I'm very curious to know what will happen to the editor or the Daily Mirror newspaper for allowing those pictures and stories to be printed as headline news without finding out if the pictures were 100% real, as it turns out it looks like they are fake, but the damage is done, the news got to the eastern countries and this has endangered the UK troops out there even more than they already were - and for what? The sale of a few papers? The editor of the Daily Mirror should resign straight away and I'd also like to see it taken further, charged with treason? Why not, that's effectively what he's guilty of after all.
:roll:

Alex
13-05-04, 02:16 PM
Treason is still punishable by death in this country

Stuart
13-05-04, 02:24 PM
As is piracy on the high seas

Jules
13-05-04, 02:27 PM
Yeah and residents of Chester can still legally use a bow and arrow on people in Wales or something - but try doing it and see what happens!!
Also Hackney carriage taxis are suppose to carry, by law, a bale of hay in the boot - reckon many of them do?

Alex
13-05-04, 02:36 PM
I think the difference between freedom of speach and treason should be defined more clearly. You cannot stand in the capital of a country and rant on about how evil the country is, claim that everyone deserves death there and then go and claim your benefits from that countries system. I don't think that is right!

Stuart
13-05-04, 03:04 PM
"Us" the natves to this country would be jailed for inciting racial hatred if we were to stand up in public and suggest that all the "foreigners" get out etc blah blah

but its fine for the now ethnic majoroty to stand up and say what the country, that they have nothing to with, is wrong etc.

double standards??!!!

Dai-o
13-05-04, 03:09 PM
No country will ever be peaceful - even this country isn't 'peaceful' but we have an acceptable level of peace...
Yeah exactly thats what i am saying.


...but its fine for the now ethnic majoroty to stand up and say what the country, that they have nothing to with, is wrong etc.

Yeah, lol... makes u f*cking laugh i

Jack
13-05-04, 06:11 PM
gah... i wrote a load then too... but then the deleted it as the whole thing just winds me up so all i'm going to say is i agree with whats said here...

epo
13-05-04, 08:05 PM
i did find what they did to that american lad very upsettin

i sharnt go in2 my personal feelings as id find it very hard to put down and say the right things without soundin like a complete tosser

Mel
13-05-04, 09:27 PM
After reading this post, it just confuses me more about this whole subject.

Personally, i think that the war was well justified - saddam deserved to be taken away from his power as ruler of the country for all the pain/suffering etc that he caused to the people in it. Take animals for example. RSPCA would be quick to prosecute someone who did that to an animal, so whats different about a dictator that does that to innocent, helpless people?

As for that poor american, all i gotta say is WHY? why would another human being do that to another? i understand about the fact that they are extremists, but there is no excuse to do that, or even, do something like on 9/11. It is horrible that we as societies can let/allow this to happen.

I could go on for hours, but i will just end with saying this: when will human kind stop this pathetic torture of each other? If we spent more time in actually getting to know people rather than shooting/executing etc them, then IMO, the world would be a much better place..

Barn
14-05-04, 02:17 AM
that poor American bloke...really got to me that did. They made him say his parents and siblings names and then beheaded him....
bloody awful...

....Quickly, I think it was right to go to war and remove Saddam from his position...but then when I hear about/see these protests in Iraq about coalition troups etc I can't help but think that these people don't want help.

It p*sses me off also seeing all these protests about 'we were wrong to go to war'...what so we'll just leave Saddam kill a few thousand more innocent people shall we before we do something? It's been done. Saddam has been removed from power whats the point in protesting now?
Justs gives the extrememists more fuel for the fire IMO.
And some of the protests about our guys and girls in the forces...I know this is maybe abit 'narrow' but it is late :roll: and I have family and friends in the forces but the way I see it is this is what they are paid for isn't it? To represent their country/protect their country...this is what all there training is for...they don't get paid to get up @ 5 in the morning and keep themselves fit they get paid to protect their country in the event of a war etc

Like others have said...I know it sounds corny but where is the love...? What is happening to this world?

I haven't even attempted to write anything regarding people slagging Britain off preaching about hating the western world and then being able to receive thousands of our f ucking money to keep them here...I won't say any more other than...Tony Blair...sort it out ffs

I do have strong views but I, like all others have a chance to put their 2p's worth in...and I like Alex and the other lads/lasses do not mean to cause any offence by any of my comments....:+:

Fester
14-05-04, 02:23 PM
Where are the WMD.

Alex
14-05-04, 02:54 PM
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/cst/lowres/cstn16l.jpg

No seriously we all know that he had all the materials for them (we gave them to him for some reason im not gonna go into) and that he has actually used WMD before (against the Kurds). They must still be in Iraq somewhere. If they didn't have any why were the inspectors treated so badly and refused entry to the country and then certain locations before the war started?

Alex
14-05-04, 02:55 PM
besides IMO even if there wasn't any WMD which I truly believe that there are/were we should ahve gone in to overthrow an evil dictator who was condoning genocide.

Stuart
14-05-04, 03:24 PM
and our defence budget needed spending to ensure more money for the next year ;)

Alex
18-05-04, 03:00 PM
A shell containing Sarin has been found. Is it a one off?

epo
18-05-04, 08:06 PM
A shell containing Sarin has been found. Is it a one off?

didnt they use some on some us troops the other day heard it on the news