turbo charging webers

[mikeoxford]

come on then.. .. ..

how can i do this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7900878756&category=43120

so i can have the induction noise of 40s - AND the vr0000m tssh noise :D

best of both worlds - f*cking awesome :D

[Gazza14SR]

Thats seems intresting, anyway if you want the best of both worlds at a good cost get one of these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7900906522&category=38786
LMFAO!

(posted before i know but they are soooo pathetic!

[cooper_nova]

lol i saw that a yesterday and woz like WTF???!!!!!

makes u wanna laugh an electric turbo
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[_JH_]

there's a turbo charged pinto engined mk1 cortina around here. had a chat with the guy while he was doing his emissions at the garage up the road from me. he said he runs a weber 32/34 dmtt. its very similar to the 32/34 that everyone on here loves so much but has all rubber gaskets and maybe one or two other things, with an RS plenum of some sort. (suppose you could use the land rover plastic one if you used this carb). but unlike the one in the link (which seems to draw charge through the carb) the carb is between the turbo and head in terms of pipework. I'm sure you could speak to a weber dealer and ask if a kit is availiable for turbocharging a normal dcoe.

should be an interesting project if you go ahead

[mikeoxford]

i like the idea of having the turbo between the dcoe and the head - u dont have to seal the 40s.

from what little i can find on the internet, forcing the induction in tho the carb trumpet isnt too clever. but between the dcoe and the head is a bit more reliable.

it would be all custom.. cant find bugger all on the UK internet.

i want something different.....

seriously considering it.

hummmmm a turbo per inlet tract? :lol:

[Snowface]

if u had the forced air after the fuel wouldn't it just be air going into the cylinder?

How do you get the air to mix with the fuel if its not going to the carburettor first?

[Stuart]

FOOL


its sucking the air in (which goes via the carb) and then into the turbo, gets compressed and blown into the plenum.

[mikeoxford]

any takers?

havent got a clue how id do it.

if youve got a garage and the expertise..... the funds are in place.

anyone wanna play at someone elses expense?

[mikeoxford]

been talked out of it by chris_w :(

n/mind

[Rick Draper]

Rajay 'RotoMaster' Turbo possibly the best Turbo manufacturer in the world, with speciallly fitted (on suspension mounts) WEBBER Twin Choke 45DCOE Carburettor

ROFLMFMO what a load of bollocks, fucking 'rotomaster' sounds like a turbo zet to me.

Also there is no form of charge cooling which would mean you would melt pistons due to a ultra high charge temperature.

Also that turbo would be pence from the states not ?1k. Rick

[mikeoxford]

Rajay 'RotoMaster' Turbo possibly the best Turbo manufacturer in the world, with speciallly fitted (on suspension mounts) WEBBER Twin Choke 45DCOE Carburettor

ROFLMFMO what a load of b******s, f**k 'rotomaster' sounds like a turbo zet to me.

Also there is no form of charge cooling which would mean you would melt pistons due to a ultra high charge temperature.

Also that turbo would be pence from the states not ?1k. Rick

you could fit a charge cooler - in between the outlet of the turbo and the inlet of the head? not that i know anything about turbos im just guessing

not like im gonna bid on it - i just saw it and got excited because ive always wanted 40s and a trubo - thought i could have both :lol: :roll:

[cooper_nova]

well mayb u can mike!
:D

[_JH_]

personally I wouldn't have the turbo so close to the carb, but yeah it would be more reliable that way round. I wonder how far from the head you can have the turbo without the fuel droplets falling out of suspension (if that makes sense). Perhaps some fins in the inlet tract to swirl the mixture up a bit. would be good to see though.

heres my not so artistic impression (nowhere near scale) of how I'd start off. lol

http://members.lycos.co.uk/magburner/nova/turboweberidea.jpg

mmm. grill mounted carbs lol.

oh yeah. it would probably never work too

[Chris_W]

Oh dear, people gobbing off without putting much thought into it. You can run turbos without ANY form of induction cooling, yes you don't get optimum performance, but it does work. The setup in question is actually off a VW Beetle and is a very common setup in the States, it's what they call a JYT (Junk Yard Turbo) setup. Basically they go down to a breakers and make a turbo setup for pence. I wouldn't mind, but Rayjay are now owned by Turbonetics and actually make turbos for tractors! lol But back in the mid 80's they were they're own company, and were one of the top turbo producers in the states!
Back to the point in question though, draw through setups suck (bad pun), they're only really any good at wide open trottle, and usually have crap driveability compared to a blow through setup. alot of people have talked about doing a blow through setup on a nova but I've yet to see one. Come on guys, the info has been posted many times on these forums, someone get out there and actually do it!

Chris

[BigRuss]

I can't believe what I'm seeing :o :o :o

The optimum operating temp of a Turbo is 800 deg C :!: :!:

I have had severael seriously modified turbo-charged cars over the years and I for one would never ever try and put petrol through a Turbo :o :!: :o

DO NOT TRY IT :!: :!: :!:

[cooper_nova]

thinking about it if u want t40's and a turbo why not look at how they set up the turbos on motor bikes????
might b worth a look!

[Chris_W]

Oh, and if you want to see a picture of a proper draw through setup like Derek's picture above, go look at the Interceptor from Mad Max 2 or 3, as you can see the carbs on the turbos sticking out of the bonnet in one of the shots.

Chris

[Chris_W]

Turbo setups on bikes are simpler to rig up as most bikes use throttle bodies, not carbs, therefore they can use the turbo in a blow through configuration, as throttle bodies don't leak fuel like normal carbs would.

Chris

[cooper_nova]

true but the old honda cx500 turbo from the 80's used carbs i think

[mikeoxford]

mmm. grill mounted carbs lol.

your not the only one that thought that :lol: i immediately thought of the GM touring cars that ran c20xes with the heads on back to front - or whatever they were

[Chris_W]

mmm. grill mounted carbs lol.

your not the only one that thought that :lol: i immediately thought of the GM touring cars that ran c20xes with the heads on back to front - or whatever they were

Am I the only one here who see's a slight problem of the rad being there? :wink: lol

Chris

[BigRuss]

I agree it could be done by conventional turbo-charging method (Blow through) quite easily. You would simply have to use an Irmscher 1300 Sport air box as a plenum-chamber on twin 40's or 45's.

Mount a turbo on the exhaust manifold put the charge through an intercooler and pipe it directly to the Irmscher air box :D

If only someone had a full sport carb set up for sale :wink:

[mikeoxford]

im in the process of sending an imrscher airbox away to the chromers....

i can hold onto it for time being if you want to turbo it for me 8)

[_JH_]

I'd like to see a turbo'd carb nova too. perhaps just an sr with the dmtt I mentioned earlier. Its really got me thinking. cut rubber gaskets using the old ones as templates, then just pull a turbo of a td car down the scrappy and weld it to mainfold etc. nice sunday afternoon bodge job. then a quick piddle around with some jets and a gas analyser lol

hmmm. the old 1.0 pushrod nova that did so well in the field last year against my old fiesta might have an upgrade this year :lol:

[BigRuss]

No prob with the rad, just move the bottom of it as far forward as possible, I put an RS Turbo engine in to an XR2 8-9 years and had to move the rad forward and cut clearance in to the X-member for the down-pipe.

Where there's a will there is a Way :!:

[Chris_W]

Russ,
Nice idea except for as soon as the turbo made boost (I think it's about 4 psi) the fuel gets forced out of the butterfly spindles and a few other places. To use 40's in a blow through configuration you need to get them taken apart and machined to take some extra seals to stop them doing it. You also need to install modulator rings and shit like that, but by the time your up to that you really need to start reading books on the subject.

Chris

[cooper_nova]

I'd like to see a turbo'd carb nova too. perhaps just an sr with the dmtt I mentioned earlier. Its really got me thinking. cut rubber gaskets using the old ones as templates, then just pull a turbo of a td car down the scrappy and weld it to mainfold etc. nice sunday afternoon bodge job. then a quick piddle around with some jets and a gas analyser lol

hmmm. the old 1.0 pushrod nova that did so well in the field last year against my old fiesta might have an upgrade this year :lol:


:o now theres an idea for my 1ltr ! Turbo it lol(wud b good if it can b done)
:lol:

[_JH_]

Am I the only one here who see's a slight problem of the rad being there? :wink: lol

Chris

why no! a bit of pipe work and it would soon be out of the way. bonnet maybe? lol with its own scoop? :D

[BigRuss]

HHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!

I see your point, I for one would have to lower the compression to say 7.2-1 and bang at least 25psi in to it. I have a reputation to uphold :twisted:

[Chris_W]

Why not just stick some NOS in it instead of lowering the comp. ratio ;) ? lol

Chris

[BigRuss]

Chris,

I was seriously looking in to doing that on My last 4x4 Sapphire Cosworth, I was getting bored with My 360bhp and contacted Real Steel for a NOS kit. The grumpy old git that answered the phone asked Me the spec/power output of my engine and thought I was Mad :!: He refused to sell Me a kit :( :?:

[Chris_W]

My mate had a similar problem with Real Steel, so he called up Wizards of NOS and they were great, gave him some 50bhp jets to start with and gave him suggestions on how to work up from there.

Chris

[cooper_nova]

how difficult/expensive wud it b to turbo charge a 1ltr???

[Chris_W]

If I was going to turbo a 1.0, all I would do mate is go to a breakers and rip the complete induction setup from either a R5GTT or a metro turbo, as either of those have a ready made blow through turbo setup on carb. Then all you need to do is a bit of fabrication work to make it match up to the nova stuff. Should cost you ?200 MAX as long as you know someone who can weld.

Chris

[cooper_nova]

If I was going to turbo a 1.0, all I would do mate is go to a breakers and rip the complete induction setup from either a R5GTT or a metro turbo, as either of those have a ready made blow through turbo setup on carb. Then all you need to do is a bit of fabrication work to make it match up to the nova stuff. Should cost you ?200 MAX as long as you know someone who can weld.

Chris

how much internal work wud b needed???

[cooper_nova]

also wot sort of gains and reliability wud i expect if i did this????

[Chris_W]

For how cheap a 1.0 lump is mate I wouldn't bother with internal work. I'd personally use it as a challenge to see how much boost was needed to blow it up :twisted:

Chris

[BigRuss]

I agree, BLOW THE MOTHER TO BITS :twisted: :twisted:

[Stuart]

lol death by boost

[cooper_nova]

lol

nah i don't wanna blow it up just wondering wether u cud run a turbo on a 1ltr reliably wiv out spending alot
:)

[MC]

I know how to do it using 40's :D

[Jack]

Rajay 'RotoMaster' Turbo possibly the best Turbo manufacturer in the world, with speciallly fitted (on suspension mounts) WEBBER Twin Choke 45DCOE Carburettor

ROFLMFMO what a load of b******s, f**k 'rotomaster' sounds like a turbo zet to me.

Sounds like a lawnmower to me... :lol:

[cooper_nova]

Rajay 'RotoMaster' Turbo possibly the best Turbo manufacturer in the world, with speciallly fitted (on suspension mounts) WEBBER Twin Choke 45DCOE Carburettor

ROFLMFMO what a load of b******s, f**k 'rotomaster' sounds like a turbo zet to me.

Sounds like a lawnmower to me... :lol:

lmao it does doesn't it
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[MC]

A book by Dave Vizzard on the A-series engine describes it.

Place the turbo before the carbs, have a slight restriction before the carb to ensure pressure is higher before than after. Take a bleed from the high pressure side to the float chamber to pressurise the fuel. Increase in boost pressure results in increase in fuel pressure.

With regard to low compression engine, stick a 1600 head on a 1400 bottom end or similar.

MC

[mikeoxford]

if i knew that i wouldnt loose anything id already got, id do it.

mr.ward seemed to think it could do more damage than good as my engine is built to be NA spec, not designed for a turbo

[Rick Draper]

Oh dear, people gobbing off without putting much thought into it. You can run turbos without ANY form of induction cooling, yes you don't get optimum performance, but it does work. The setup in question is actually off a VW Beetle and is a very common setup in the States, it's what they call a JYT (Junk Yard Turbo) setup. Basically they go down to a breakers and make a turbo setup for pence. I wouldn't mind, but Rayjay are now owned by Turbonetics and actually make turbos for tractors! lol But back in the mid 80's they were they're own company, and were one of the top turbo producers in the states!
Back to the point in question though, draw through setups suck (bad pun), they're only really any good at wide open trottle, and usually have crap driveability compared to a blow through setup. alot of people have talked about doing a blow through setup on a nova but I've yet to see one. Come on guys, the info has been posted many times on these forums, someone get out there and actually do it!

Chris

Yes i know you can run a turbo with no form of intercooling, metro gt or whatever it was called had no form of intercooler. It was notoriousley unreliable due to the fact the inlet temps were so high causing pistons to melt.

The main issue you have with that setup for sale there is the fact that as boost comes in the air been drawn through the webber will force the webber open and at certain points you will have little control over the throttle.

Also i for one would not like the thought of dumping a load of fuel onto the induction side of a steaming hot turbo in my engine bay, far better doing that after a intercooled charge in the inlet manifold. Rick

[Stuart]

also imagine a dump valve, venting a fuel air mixture into an engine bay lol


ahhh Mr Vizzard, veritable genious

[Chris_W]

Well, the setup that Dave Vizzard talks of is the setup thats used on a Metro Turbo, the restriction (modular ring) is what I mentioned earlier. There's lots of good books on the subject, but they all say the same thing, once you get up to certain boost levels, unless that carb has had additional seals fitted, it will leak fuel.
Also, to my knowledge you can fit a dumpvalve on a draw thru setup, so that would save you air/fuel mix igniting your engine bay! ;)

Chris

[j1400]

Can't you just steel the carb set up from the turbo lotus,s they had 40's and a inlet, al sealed.
But pretty sure you loose the Bwwwaaarrrppp of the carbs as the inlet tract will hold the sound in, :(

[mikeoxford]

Can't you just steel the carb set up from the turbo lotus,s they had 40's and a inlet, al sealed.
But pretty sure you loose the Bwwwaaarrrppp of the carbs as the inlet tract will hold the sound in, :(

yeah :(

after having a miserable morning trying to find a gearbox. decided just not to bother. MC said best way to do it is use a 1400 bottom end. well i aint going through the hassle of replacing loads of stuff. thought it might be possible thats all on a 1600.

nevermind

[Snowface]

FOOL


its sucking the air in (which goes via the carb) and then into the turbo, gets compressed and blown into the plenum.


I can't believe what I'm seeing :o :o :o

The optimum operating temp of a Turbo is 800 deg C :!: :!:

I have had severael seriously modified turbo-charged cars over the years and I for one would never ever try and put petrol through a Turbo :o :!: :o

DO NOT TRY IT :!: :!: :!:

there u go cambridge, who's the fool now? for asking a perfectly reasonable question.

Also if its sucking air in at speed throught the carb, the carb has got to be modified cause i read that all the floats and stuff need modifying and the fuel gets forced out of the butterfly spindles and a few other places.

[Snowface]

Why not just stick some NOS in it instead of lowering the comp. ratio ;) ? lol

fitting N2O (NOS) will not lower your compression ratio, it raises it :!:

[Slatter]

Ive got a whole mg metro turbo if anyone wants to buy engine and turbo etc off me :lol: :lol: :lol:

Slatter

[j1400]

Why not just stick some NOS in it instead of lowering the comp. ratio ;) ? lol

fitting N2O (NOS) will not lower your compression ratio, it raises it :!:

But will cool the charge down so it doesn't get heated and expand as much so does reduce the CR.

[Stuart]

i was calling you a fool cumface because you asked a very dumb quieston. i stated how it operated as you clearly had no comprehension as to how it functioned.


i didnt condone its use in that setup did i??

now stop trying to be clever, because "reading somewhere" wont get you aywhere compared with acctual experience/genuine knowledge

[Snowface]

using nos you are putting more oxygen into the cylinder (and more fuel to burn with the oxygen) thus creating higher compression.

[Stuart]

"I'm Not As Think As You Confused I Am"



OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH i know how confused you are.

Read up on NOs and try again.

[Snowface]

woah, where did that attitude come from?

I'm sorry my knowledge isn't quite up to your standards, we all worship you cambridge ye god of knowledge.

[Snowface]

cambridge, go and read this http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question259.htm&url=http://www.idavette.net/hib/nitrous.htm

i quote from this page

Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.

there u go smarty pants. Stick that where you like. :lol:

[CP]

Could I respectfully ask the honourable member of roystonshire and other esteemed fellow novaload members to heed my "no abuse in this forum" request. :roll:

Thanks

Put your scratch mittens on and take it outside :lol:

[benji]

it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine


i think thats down to the fact that load's of fuel get's put in too. but if you wanted you could just add enough nitrous to lower the cr.

but don't quote me on that because i rarley have a clue what i'm on about

[Snowface]

well cambridge obviously doesn't want to show his face on this thread since i proved him wrong yesterday even though i saw him on another topic later on.

:wink:

[Stuart]

will you learn to read!!


it gives an effect SIMILAR to that of an increased compression ratio. that dosent mean it acctually takes the head off, skims it and puts it back on every time you use laughing gas.

[Snowface]

using nos you are putting more oxygen into the cylinder (and more fuel to burn with the oxygen) thus creating higher compression.

You tell me thats wrong so i show you this to back up the above statement:


i quote from this page

Simply stated, nitrous oxide injection is very much like a supercharger or a compression ratio increase in that, during combustion, it can dramatically increase the dynamic cylinder pressure in the engine.


i stand by my original statement. So there you go.


will you learn to read!!


it gives an effect SIMILAR to that of an increased compression ratio. that dosent mean it acctually takes the head off, skims it and puts it back on every time you use laughing gas.

what are you babbling on about.

[Stuart]

your first statement suggested that you thought that it increased the compression ratio of the engine, as you were babbling on with J1400 ( i belive)

Cylinder pressure and compression ratio are seperate entities, although slightly interlinked due to the nature of the otto cycle.

anyway, this post has been drageed kicking and screaming off topic.

[Snowface]

when i say compression ratio u know i mean compression. Obiously if u want to change the ratio you got to physically alter the block/head.

Think u were just being pedantic, which is allowed.

[mc_hawkings]

ANyway bitchs what would you need to take off a five turbo, i mean theres tons of water pipes do i need any?

[Chris_W]

Well I've not seen a R5GTT up close, but on my old nova it ran a Garrett T3 from an RST, and for that you need to add a water feed and return, and an oil feed and return for the turbo, make up an adapter or weld on a suitable flange to get the turbo onto the manifold, then sort out routing of the boost pipes and intercooler. If you nicking from a R5GTT you'll also need the carb, and then work out a way of adapting it to the nova inlet manifold. Thats the basics, then you have to work out your vacummn pipes and litle odds and sods like that.

Chris

[mc_hawkings]

Yup i was just thinking out loud. As the theres been a few r5 turbos at the scrappy i could nick carb, intercooler, just mainly ancilleries & i can get a turbo easy anyway its just working out how much to chop the r5 & nova manifolds down which would need help with plus theres the exhaust side.

It would be something interesting to work on & could transfer the workings onto another engine. Its not as though its going to cost much for the bits anyway. just wear a big jacket with big pockets & away i go.

I wont ask to many questions but just want to see if its feasable & it does.

Cheers

[m.d.]

i was thinking of building a turbo motor on the side from R5 bits and bobs. im a toolmaker machinest so hopefully making adaptor plates etc wont be a problem. just one question tho. where would you take the oil feed from
for the turbo. i realise you could make the return just drain into the sump but i cant work out where you would get a feed from

[MC]

From the oil pump.

[m.d.]

how?????

[Chris_W]

My old one was taken from where the oil pressure sender goes. Take out sender, fit a T piece and away you go.

Chris

[mc_hawkings]

Use the dipstick as a return & oil switch as a return. Then you would not be able to tell how much oil you have & no warning. There must be a better solution?

[Chris_W]

Use the dipstick as a return & oil switch as a return. Then you would not be able to tell how much oil you have & no warning. There must be a better solution?

Are you trying to be funny? The reason for putting a T piece where the sender goes is so you still retain the sender! and the return is to a pipe welded into the sump, not the dipstick, so you can still tell how much oil is in the engine. Anymore sensible questions?

Chris

[mc_hawkings]

oil feed and return, easy again, use oil pressure switch as feed, and dipstick hole as return

This is what someone suggested to me & i wasnt trying to being funny.

You say use the pressure switch as a feed & use a t-piece how would you do this as its a sender with wire not oil fed.

Also what heads should i use to lower compression as i've just used put the 1.2 head on with 1.3 inlet. Would i need to reuse the 1.4 head with 1.4 manifold or use an sri head or 1600 head? Or would i just get away with using double head gaskets. I'm a bit miffed at these.

Thanks

[Nick]

jeez, just buy a C20Let !

[Phil GTE]

Blow through on a Nova has been done. When Max P used to be good (early 1998), they had a white 1.4sr with a 2 page feature. this looked std

but under the bonnet

a 2.0 8v running a T2 with twin 45s :D

and it was meant to be well fast!!!!

I was reading the article a couple of weeks ago. It gave me too many ideas!

[mikeoxford]

Blow through on a Nova has been done. When Max P used to be good (early 1998), they had a white 1.4sr with a 2 page feature. this looked std

but under the bonnet

a 2.0 8v running a T2 with twin 45s :D

and it was meant to be well fast!!!!

I was reading the article a couple of weeks ago. It gave me too many ideas!

get us a scan of these pages then :lol: :!:

[S_Gault]

You need to seal the float chamber to boost pressure and you must use the late carbs with the plastic float otherwise the brass one will collapse under boost.

Done this many times.

Steven

[S_Gault]

Sorry meant to add that Ive done it in past on a 1600 by machining pistons and opening up the chamber in the head to get compression down.

Ive also done this several times on pintos and worked at a few old Lotus esprits which use a blow thru setup on 45 dellortos (in the early 80s).

Steven

[mc_hawkings]

Sorry chris i was thinking of the pressure switch as (cvh) wise.
Should be easy now i know what it is also use the dipstick hole T-into it towards the bottom i think that would be fine. T-into the switch on the pump where could i locate something like that.

Cheers

[mikeoxford]

Sorry meant to add that Ive done it in past on a 1600 by machining pistons and opening up the chamber in the head to get compression down.

Ive also done this several times on pintos and worked at a few old Lotus esprits which use a blow thru setup on 45 dellortos (in the early 80s).

Steven
very helpful steven thankyou

when you say "late" carburettors can i identify them without stripping them?

[S_Gault]

yea if 40s.. they will say- 40DCOE151 on lid

if 45s they will say 45DCOE152.

i always open the lids as some people swap lids over etc and try to sell carbs without internals and all sorts of shady goings-on.

Steven