View Full Version : Engine dilenma
I need some solid advice.
I've recently acquired a substantial box of parts that were supposed to be built into a power engine for me.
Due to certain circumstances I don't feel any trust at all in the purchased parts, there's nothing wrong with them at all, but I've just get a feeling like the parts have bad juju whenever I look at them in my spare room!!
Do I,
Keep it all, build it and just see what happens.
Get another block (which I've already got in stock) bore it and then build the engine using the parts but sell the scrap the original block. This would make it a different engine.
Sell the lot and start again.
I'm over £4,000 in at this point and I wouldn't even see half that back if sold as parts!!
Any opinions welcome.
what engine is it bud? Personally if it was me id build the engine and just replace any parts I was unsure about.
What playing on your mind about the parts ?
It's a 20XE, big power spec.
What playing on your mind about the parts ?
I can't say for sure Mr Timmy, you just know when you look at something and it doesn't feel right, the crank was meant to be polished, isn't, the Block had been assembled and then dis-assembled so the rings are on the Pistons, who knows that's happened to them, the shells supplied are marked and dinked with little scratches.
I know people will say get a refund but I've gone down that route and it's all settled up now, I got some money back and it's dealt with but the bad taste is still in theoitj with it!! it's just where I go from here.
I realise "big power spec" isn't exactly expansive!!
ported head, +1mm valves, 296 cams, it's meant to be proper!!
I'm more than capable of building it myself so that's not the issue......it's hard to put into words!!!
BRoadGhost
12-04-15, 03:31 PM
Believe it or not engine parts can be measured quite accurately ~ Not sure where JuJu comes into it
Believe it or not engine parts can be measured quite accurately ~ Not sure where JuJu comes into it
Thankyou Mr Ghost, can I assume you mean "get it checked, stop being a girl and build it already"?!?
BRoadGhost
12-04-15, 03:36 PM
Sounds like it's going to be outrageous; I'm in a different boat to some as upgrades happen one at a time & then it gets driven ~ If everything's new & assembled I'd be wearing kid gloves when it comes to drive time.
It's a difficult situation, I fitted the ITB's and the fuel system upgrades got the car working as it should brakes and suspension, you know the drill.
Built myself a standard XE to see if I could do it (it's been a few years since I built an engine) now this was the last step, big power. I suppose I could build the bottoms end, run it with my current head then change the heads out assuming it does 1000 miles with no issues, the only trouble there is multiple trips to the RR for setup cos of the compression ratio changes and then again cod the cams in the new head.
It's difficult to decide how to play it!!
why not build it all up, then take it to a decent RR and get them to get it sorted. running up new parts bit by bit is going to take you a very long time & waste a lot of money. it is either going to run or it isn't.. and the odds are that it will run perfectly well.
meritlover
12-04-15, 04:29 PM
just build it mindful that everything may not be as you expected. You can measure a crank, measure a bore, check the rings and just replace the bits you have to. presumably you wouldnt build it if the journals were out of tollerance or scored beyond use? you should be plastigauging to check for clearence anyway.
If you dont think you will get half back on what you paid for it, you have very little to loose. Even if it does 'let go' its unlikely the whole thing will be a write off, there will still be some components left you can salvage.
if its not good enough for you to rebuild with then it wouldnt be right to sell the stuff on to some other shmuk
if its not good enough for you to rebuild with then it wouldnt be right to sell the stuff on to some other shmuk
I would never sell on anything if I thought for a second it wasn't 100%.
I'm not into turning people over mate!! in fact I'm donating a head to Iain for his track car that I'm having checked, pressure tested and skimmed for no charge because I don't supply parts to people that are dirty, *u*ked or likely to not work!!
If I built it then I would use new shells, rings and check everything get the crank polished and I guess like Mr Meritlover and Mr Ghost say everything can be measured and checked before hand.
meritlover
12-04-15, 06:22 PM
Do I,
Keep it all, build it and just see what happens.
Get another block (which I've already got in stock) bore it and then build the engine using the parts but sell the scrap the original block. This would make it a different engine.
Sell the lot and start again.
I'm over £4,000 in at this point and I wouldn't even see half that back if sold as parts!!
I would never sell on anything if I thought for a second it wasn't 100%.
what's the problem then? crack on and get it built...
Haha yeah I know I'm being a girl about it, I'll make a proper start at putting stuff together, get the crank polished and bearings sourced and look at getting it bolted together so I can have the compression ratio measured and work out what needs to come off the Pistons to get to to 12:1.
While you guys are reading, Can I re-use a comitec head gasket?? It's new now but I've got to bolt it all up to have the compression ratio tested then get the Pistons out to have them machined to the correct dimensions, can I use the gasket again or will it be cream crackered??
Crack on.im checking toms over and not looking forward to it.however its a chance to put things right when they havent turned over.
If that "engine builder" spent half as much time on the engines as he did taking pics of himself in bras hed do alright.
Crack on.im checking toms over and not looking forward to it.however its a chance to put things right when they havent turned over.
Very true Andy, if I'm not 100% happy with something I'll make sure I am before continuing.
Thanks all for the input!! I'll get cracking!!!
meritlover
12-04-15, 08:57 PM
:thumb:
Men in bras, never a good thing
Men in bras, never a good thing
lollollol
meritlover
12-04-15, 09:53 PM
.... look at getting it bolted together so I can have the compression ratio measured and work out what needs to come off the Pistons to get to to 12:1.
just measure + calculate the CR and save the gasket. if youre stressing over using suspect parts, why would you cut corners for the sake of a gasket?
if you've already built it up and torqued it down, measure the finished thickness so you never have to waste another one doing the same thing. not worth re using it .
The only reason I was gonna do it this way was because when I built my last one 14 years ago that's how we did it.
We built it all up then took it to and engine guy who did some calculations!!
If the only way to work it out is using the gasket then I'll buy another one!! Just didn't want to spend the £170 if I didn't really have to!!
You reckon it's calculatable (is that a word?!?) without building it up??
I'll see what Jay at Modus says about the best way to work it out.
I mean I could run at 12.5:1 but everyone I've asked thinks it's a little high and it should be 11.5 to 12 max!
Measure the bore stoke piston dish if any the gasket thickness and the combustion chamber of the head and you have your cr
mk1nova_rich
12-04-15, 10:11 PM
I think what he was getting at is why you are so anxious to build this engine with some new parts yet intend to use a used head gasket.
12.5 is pretty high tbh
Crossed wires here I think!!!
i have a brand new comitec head gasket for this engine.
when I last built a power XE (14 years ago) the guy I built it with said the only way to calculate the CR to machine the Pistons was to dry assemble the engine, with head and gasket, then we sent it to a guy who worked it all out and machined the Pistons.
Now I see that this isn't needed at all as there are CR calculators on the internet that are easily utilised. Just need to CC the combustion chamber, top of the piston and know the compressed gasket thickness and it can all be calculated.
When I asked the question about reusing the gasket I was meaning re-using the brand new gasket I have that I would have dry assembled the engine with.
I hope this all makes sense now?!?
mk1nova_rich
12-04-15, 10:33 PM
Ah righht yeh ignore me then lol sorry for confusion, hope you get sorted :)
Ah righht yeh ignore me then lol sorry for confusion, hope you get sorted :)
Not at all mate, I don't think I was very clear in my question!!
ill get the Pistons measured and the head I need to have the chambers matched anyway so this can be done at the same time and I've read the gasket is 1.3mm when compressed so with all that we can work it out then machine the Pistons accordingly!!
I'm glad we had this little chat cos I've learnt something and made myself look like a Nobhead all at the same time!!
iirc cometic gaskets are reuseable.... half a problem solved
Regarding calibration (mapping). What ECU is it? Invest in a wideband lambda sensor and get cracking yourself. Ignition is tricky but generally its pretty safe from the first mapping sesh, then play with the fuel etc.
Walshysr
13-04-15, 04:13 PM
^ :)
Mr Stuart, I'm running a DTA ECU, I've got a deal with the guys at T&R, cheap as chips mapping sessions as they like the car for some strange reason, Jim thinks it's hilarious!!
I tried to map it myself on the standard engine and got the fueling pretty good but it's hard to know where to start changing over with the from lambda 14.5 to 13.5 in the map, it's also hard to listen for det when driving along on the road!! Holding it at set revs to adjust stuff is hard work too!! Not to mention making sure the det dip is in the correct place!! Plus I'm not sure if you've seen the DTA system but it's not the greatest mapping system ever!!!
The block, crank, rods, head and valves are all off to Modus to be measured and checked, the head will be CC'd and matched, the Pistons CC'd and matched and machined for the right CR. we've decided we don't like 12.5:1 so Jay's gonna research it and we'll make a decision, I'd prefer 12:1 I think, T&R advised 12:1 as a max so we'll probably end up near there, I'll email Newman (my cam manufacturer) and see what they say is the best CR for my cams!!
Dta isn't great but its waaaaay better than sleazymap for mbe lol
if you have a good price with the steves then stick with them :)
T&R are meant to b very good from all i've read... Get the lump bit and in there!
T&R are meant to b very good from all i've read... Get the lump bit and in there!
T&R are exceptional mate, no bullscheise just tuning!! Although Steve is a grumpy bugger!! The things they were adjusting were things I'd never even look at let alone adjust but they made a huge difference!!
ive never seen the MBE stuff, my brother has a 1.8t corrado I'm building an engine for that's running Emerald, he likes it but again I've heard odd things about it!!
I was looking at using the standard ECU with Matt from United Motorsports re-writing it (he works with The Phirm using standard VAG ECU's for all their tuned stuff) but we couldn't get a TPS input on the standard vaux ECU and i can't run a MAF sensor cos of the throttle bodies.
HELP NEEDED!!!!!!
So I began to get everything together today to get down to Jay, figured I'd build the head as I have all the parts for this and want to get them assembled so I know they're there before Jay checks it all.
Went to get the valves in, oiled up, platform in..................
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/B709334E-4E1A-4C1F-AFB5-E4CD81B8C7C5.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/B709334E-4E1A-4C1F-AFB5-E4CD81B8C7C5.jpg.html)
Not sure if you can see but the platform doesn't sit down onto the alloy of the head. the hole in the platform is no where big enough to drop over the guide and sit down properly.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/7D3223D5-EEAC-4517-987A-3DB320B4967A.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/7D3223D5-EEAC-4517-987A-3DB320B4967A.jpg.html)
As you can see it's not down properly, now I've done a bit of research and should I have these on the right?!?!?
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/555F3673-0A85-43F1-B780-48235D0639DB.png (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/555F3673-0A85-43F1-B780-48235D0639DB.png.html)
A picture of the guides to highlight the problem.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/79B7E44F-870F-4BDE-B3CB-EE30DE9BDB2B.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/79B7E44F-870F-4BDE-B3CB-EE30DE9BDB2B.jpg.html)
Now, it would be no surprise if these were supplied to me wrong!! Anyone shed some light?!?!?
Id ring norman price again mate
Id ring norman price again mate
I've Pm'd steveboyslim the guy that does all the head work for him and I'm hoping he can help.
After researching it seems I have GM platforms but I need Coscast ones!!
Sorry to hear about your recent troubles bud. I know reliable and decent engine builders are hard to come by. I know you said you do not trust anyone to build touch your engine and I don't blame you. But I can recommend my old work based in essex (where I was a design engineer) if you need any help/machining/building etc, they also design and develop their own forged internals in house but obviously your already sorted on that front. I'm not normally one to recommend companies (especially one I don't work for anymore lol ) but he has decades of experience and knows his stuff. I will pm on his details only if you wanted them :thumb: .
Thanks Connor mate, I've had a fair share of issues!!
I really appreciate the recommend, fortunately I've got a local to me engine builder that I've used in the past, the only reason I didn't use them to build it in the first place was cos they had a 6 month waiting list!! Luckily they're a little quieter now so I've managed to get squeezed in!!
Fair enough, sounds like your getting sorted. Hope you get it sorted soon bud, alot of top fulltime engine builders I know have a hefty waiting time lol.
I've Pm'd steveboyslim the guy that does all the head work for him and I'm hoping he can help.
After researching it seems I have GM platforms but I need Coscast ones!!
Good choice and why a Coscast one? Only a very few small differences..
From what I can make out mate, the GM ones have 11mm holes in the centre of the platforms but the coscast ones have a 13mm hole. This would explain why the ones I have don't fit over the guides. All speculation at the moment until I speak to someone that knows!!!
8valve-craig
15-04-15, 08:36 AM
Yes, early Coscast guides have a bigger OD. John at QED will sort the right ones if you call and always very quick delivery too.
I'll be calling QED this afternoon mate as I've not heard back from Steve, had dealings before with QED and they have always been good!!
QED don't stock the coscast ones anymore as you can't get them!! But they do use the lotus twin cam ones which "do the job very adequately" 16 ordered along with some shims for the solid buckets!!
steveboyslim
15-04-15, 10:10 PM
Spring platforms will depend on what springs are being used,, their recommended installed length, single or double springs and if it is any early or late coscast or gm head, also cam lift and at what measurement coil bind occurs.
With cams of that duration I would expect double valve springs, steel retainers, with small size stem seals, if the valves are stainless the guides should be of a lead copper alloy.
You need to know the diameter of the valve guide protruding into the valve spring area.
You also need to check that what every spring retainer is used will not come into contact with the valve stem seal/guide at maximum cam lift.
If the cams are not mechanical profile with solid lifters they should be.
Steve
Well the whole lot is off to be looked at by someone who knows what they're looking at.
As detailed in the PM I just sent you Steve, I've no idea what parts I've been supplied. I'm working in the dark here and surprise surprise nicols isn't answering when contacted
steveboyslim
16-04-15, 08:19 AM
From your head pictures the head was originally from the factory was fitted with spring platforms shown in the QED picture on the right, that type is not suitable for double springs.
Depending on what spring retainer cam combination you have you may need modified spring platforms and valve stem seals.
Steve
Steve,
I appreciate all the advice, you defo know your stuff.
QED are sending me a spring platform similar to the ones on the left in the picture that they say will be able to be used with double springs and the guides I have, as for the stem seals this will have to be checked during installation, along with spring bind and retainer to seal clearance,
I've also heard from nicols and he's confirmed the double springs I have are from piper, we can however measure the bind up length and measure the installed length and hopefully we'll have enough free travel for the cam lift, luckily I know the make of cams and have all the info for those regarding lift and clearances.
steveboyslim
16-04-15, 02:59 PM
If the cam are supplied by Newman you should ask them what spring/retainer/platform/stem seal combination should be used to ensure comp ability.
Steve
Yes I have Steve!! At last something is correct!!!!!
8valve-craig
16-04-15, 07:42 PM
And you will most likely want Escort Mk5 RS2000 stem seals. I have the part number somewhere, but Steve knows this also if that's who's looking at it for you.
I've got a local company looking at everything for me mate, known them for years and they're right on my doorstep.
ill make a note of the stem seals, thanks for the heads up.
i appreciate everyone's input on this, thanks all, gaining some important knowledge!!
A quick investigation and the problem is evident!!
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/76A61B71-BB57-40FE-8235-48CF7124C403.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/76A61B71-BB57-40FE-8235-48CF7124C403.jpg.html)
Any chance anyone can dig out the part number for the FWD RS2000 stem seals?!
Steve, something you can supply!!
Hmm, supply indeed :roll:
8valve-craig
16-04-15, 09:22 PM
I don't have it written down, sorry. Just get a reg from the web and go to Ford parts though.
Hmm, supply indeed :roll:
Have I missed something??
Ill get on it now Craig, thanks!!
steveboyslim
17-04-15, 10:38 PM
If they are Piper springs you will need Piper spring retainers and they may not work with the Newman cams.
I hope you got some extra valve stem seals as they are often damaged during fitting, you will need to make a mandrel and sleeve to fit them correctly.
Steve
I've got Piper double Springs and the correct retainers for them.
I've ordered 32 stem seals as Jay said exactly the same thing about damaging them.
He's already got a few oil seal fitting tools he's collected over the years so is confident we'll be able to knock something up.
As for the cams working with the springs all I can do is call Newman Monday morning and see what they say about using the piper setup. If not I'll be purchasing whatever Newman recommend.
Thanks again for the help Steve, I appreciate the information.
Edit :- emailed Newman detailing the parts I have and asking if they are compatible, will update when I receive a response.
Quick update on this.
I've just spoken to Ken at Newman cams and he assures me that aslong as the piper double springs will take the lift stated on the cam data sheet without binding and having enough clearance then they will work with the 296 degree cams I have.
The block is currently with Jay at Modus, he is measuring everything to ensure we are good to go and CCing the Pistons so we can get the CR to 11.5:1.
The head will be with him as soon as the platforms and shims arrive from QED and the special stem oil seals arrive from Piper, I also spoke to Piper regarding the platforms and they agree that the Lotus twin cam ones being supplied by QED should work assuming the measurements check out, if they don't, he suggested machining the central hole form 11mm to 13 mm on the GM platforms so they fit over the guides, something Jay said we could turn in the lathe but I'm hoping the QED ones will work!!
So it seems we are full steam ahead
meritlover
21-04-15, 01:08 PM
Is this not built yet?
Is this not built yet?
It would have been but suprise suprise half of the parts supplied for the head were wrong!! Well it's not a suprise actually!!
I'm off to Egypt to recover for a week after all this F ing around. Should have some progress on my return!!
EDIT TO ADD :-
Just received the package from QED, tested the Lotus platforms in the head and they clear over the valve guides (winner) then tested them on the springs and they clear with a decent clearance around the spring too (double winner) also they are the same thickness as the original GM ones (used my new micrometer) which means we shouldn't encounter any unforeseen spring bind issues.
Obviously it'll all be measured up wth the valves installed to check but it looks like a goer!!
Lastly, the 0.155" shims look spot on, we'll get these assembled into the head and maybe have to order some more depending if we can get closer with new ones or a little trim for the tops of the valves if it's less than the we can shim out, all in a day's work!!
For anyone following this.
Piper's listed "specifically for double valve springs" valve stem oil seals are exactly the same as standard ones!!
They even have on the packet that they are for the piper springs I have but are exactly the same despite the website picture showing slightly different ones!!!
If anyone wants stem oil seals I've now got 48, so can offer deals!!
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/98C1DA63-A22F-415E-A114-BAEA79384591.png (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/98C1DA63-A22F-415E-A114-BAEA79384591.png.html)
Shown on on the piper website
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/28CA834D-F88B-4A87-9968-DB40E8D3679A.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/28CA834D-F88B-4A87-9968-DB40E8D3679A.jpg.html)
Says on the packet they are specifically for the springs I have
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/C19EEF6B-F2AA-46D1-B0BC-3DAE928C6AD8.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/C19EEF6B-F2AA-46D1-B0BC-3DAE928C6AD8.jpg.html)
Exactly the same!! Piper on the left, standard on the right. They do fit inside the springs but the lip on the seal brushes the inner spring!!
Will get Jay to call Piper as I'm away on holiday from tomorrow for a week to clarify!!
They would be the same tho, as it's only the valve thought the middle that means anything... Valve thickness are all the same on Xe/let so i believe...
The issue is that the outer lip where the green rubber meets the metal actually touches the inner of the double springs.
it will just about go up in there if it's wiggled about but it's almost like the stem seals need to be 0.1mm less outer diameter. Hang on I'll get some pics!!
8valve-craig
22-04-15, 09:41 PM
Benn, it's the inner spring which hits the outside edge of a standard seal.
House, just go to your local friendly Ford dealership for some RS ones, they are not expensive, and are correct.
Benn, as below mate!! Will just go down there with a wiggle but I'm not happy with it!!
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/grahampointing/D3C00947-AAF2-42B0-9506-185E98D0D6DA.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/grahampointing/media/D3C00947-AAF2-42B0-9506-185E98D0D6DA.jpg.html)
Craig, I'll get Jay to order some up. Front wheel drive escort RS2000 mk v??
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00LDKSP4Y/ref=mw_dp_mdsc/275-7258578-7402720?dsc=1
Craig, these look right? It says " Ford ESCORT Mk V (GAL) RS 2000 90-92 (tel:2000 90-92) {150,1998}"
If so its FAI number VSK455
Ford part number FORD: 6166533 & FORD: 88WM6571BB
8valve-craig
22-04-15, 10:04 PM
K135 JYC is the reg I used. Can't remember the part number but seriously just get some genuine Ford ones over the counter.
You can file / grind Vauxhall ones down if you like, just don't fancy it myself.
They should just push down iirc. I just used a deep socket to push them on.
Unless you have wider valves (which i can't see you do) then std GM ones would fit...
Yeah agreed Craig!!
http://www.yoyopart.com/oem/1289825/faiautoparts-vsk455.html
I'll investigate the reg you've just supplied!! Thanks mate!!
Benn, the worry I have is that the stem seal will touch the inner spring and possibly bind or maybe even pull the stem seal off the guide.
I'm researching this and getting somewhere thanks to Criag's number plate help!!
Benn, it's the inner spring which hits the outside edge of a standard seal.
.
Sorry didn't see your reply. Oh so its down to the springs... I Get ya
Just been on the ford USA website after matching that reg to a model, the ford part number comes back as 6571. So I'll get Jay to order these from Ford using that number!!
thanks for the help Craig!!
8valve-craig
22-04-15, 10:29 PM
It sounds like you are over complicating things. Give them the reg, tell them you need stem seals x16. Simple.
I used double valve springs on my old 1600 motor with the lip filed down slightly on the stem seal, twice they got lifted up by the inner spring. Boy wouldnt it smoke. Lol
It sounds like you are over complicating things. Give them the reg, tell them you need stem seals x16. Simple.
It took 8 mins to get me to breath when I was born mate, what's wrong with complicated, I like doing things the hard way?!? lollollol
Quick update on this.
Darren at Modus gave me a call with an update yesterday.
Block is as good as scrap, it appears bearing cap number 1 is from a completely different engine, it doesn't look the same at the other 4, it also measures 7 thou oval!!
The crank also needs a grind as none of the 9 journals match each other!!
All the "brand new" shells are scored and marked!!
I've got another block to use, luckily!!!
end of report, more to follow
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