View Full Version : Custom crossmember, replacement crossmembers... Track use
My crossmember is a little worse for wear, both sides have varying levels of damage around the tiebar brackets from small splits to 4-5 inch cracks. 3 years of XE road and track abuse and lowered rosejointed tiebar brackets are to blame probably.
Plan to replace it all in winter, just weighing up the options. Is it just worth putting a new standard/aftermarket one on? What's the best way of making a custom one?
At the mo thinking of a CDS tube welded between the chassis legs and box section either ends for OE tiebar brackets to mount to... But then should I do the whole lot 20mm lower so it's already in the right place for the anti-dive effect of the RJ kit I have on (which spaces it 20-25mm lower and puts more force on the crossmember?)
scott.parker
26-08-14, 03:26 PM
If you can find the counts wip I personally would try replicate what he did on the beige one he started.
Looks good. I was thinking of box style like he's done for the tiebar brackets, and boxing them around a CDS tube instead of his box at the front.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/Count85/Beige/Beige699.jpg
I'd tube the front, tag it to the legs, as you've said a box in the tie bar mounts. yours are already dropped down arnt they? So you wouldn't need to lower them more really.
Will look better and work better. You could even lover the rad for more air. Or do it so the oil cooler sits under the rad. So get max cooling.
Was thinking lower the cross member so they no longer need the spacers in so theyre closer to the cross member.
Sorry didn't know you ran spacers, thought the posh mounts didn't. THen yeah i'd lower them they so you can be spacer less.
scott.parker
26-08-14, 06:01 PM
Only thing is I thought it's easier to bend a tube compared to the box section stuff?
you can bend both, but most metal bashers only have tools to cold bend round tube.
http://s27.postimg.org/u2qyvd2cz/kevsnova3ke0.jpg
scott.parker
26-08-14, 11:43 PM
Worth a read...
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/3372-round-vs-square-tube-strength.html
That's far too technical for a Nova crossmember, I think CDS vs a reasonable wall box section would both be equally good here?
Mieran loving that, I have had thoughts about tieing it back into the turret rollcage bars but not sure I'd stop if I was going that mad.
Mieran pic is what i was thinking of...
Still needs boxes at either end if you're going to use the original tiebar brackets tho, kind of what I was thinking of but just one tube instead of 2 and boxed ends.
I was eyeing up the crossmember on mine yesterday with a view to tackling this soon.
To remove the old one, I am thinking of fitting the tiebar brackets in their LOWEST position, tacking them onto bars running between the chassis legs and down to the lower arm brackets to keep them in the right position, then cutting off the crossmember.
I am thinking of remaking the new one to match the lower tiebar positions, and also space it forwards a few mm (couple of washers in front of the horizontal bolt position) to gain some added castor lost by lowering it.
Thinking of 100x50 box section 3mm wall on the ends to mount the brackets to and box them into the chassis legs, and tieing them together in the middle with a run of 38mm CDS rollcage tubing I have.
RallyMarshal
11-11-14, 09:59 AM
Id remove the old one entirely, plate and strengthen it so the tie bar brackets dont need to be lowered anymore and refit the entire crossmember in the lower position by concentrating on making the chassis leg to crossmember mounts.
The rally Novas run a sumpguard obviously. This helps to tie the front brackets into the rest of the chassis. Perhaps some kind of "subframe" arrangement or strengthening bars that tie the front crossmember brackets into the main chassis legs and simulate the job a sumpguard does would be an idea to alleviate those specific stress points?
Paul..
That's the plan no spacers on the tiebar brackets, then I can use OE brackets and poly bushes too.
That's not a bad idea to tie it in backwards Paul, sure I've seen pics of that recently, I'll have to look into that when the engine's back in as there's not too much clearance around the tiebars currently although might be more obvious with the whole lot lower.
I'll gusset (triangular sections/plates) the square end sections to the CDS, and upwards into the chassis legs based on what we talked about it now being lower than original to brace it up the chassis leg a bit.
Am i right in thinking moving the tie bars over (so the end of the bar is in line with the lower arm) will help too? Seen this on another Nova... Guess it helps with pull of the tie bar... But not one you can do with std tie bars.
Think i'd be temped to use tacked in small bits of metal to keep everything in place...
Johnny A
11-11-14, 06:14 PM
a bit of sheet steel tacked in each corner is better than a factory crossmember ffs
BRoadGhost
11-11-14, 10:10 PM
From that link on square Vs tube, I surmised box is somewhat stronger in most stress / shear testing, but is approximately 30% heavier.
In this case I went for 3MM box and welded the lowered brackets to it; got the lower arm mount points inline at the same time and it's strong enough to jack the car up on at the center point. I've still got the pictures.
ben doodar
11-11-14, 10:21 PM
From that link on square Vs tube, I surmised box is somewhat stronger in most stress / shear testing, but is approximately 30% heavier.
In this case I went for 3MM box and welded the lowered brackets to it; got the lower arm mount points inline at the same time and it's strong enough to jack the car up on at the center point. I've still got the pictures.
Fire some pics up pal.
What size you go for BRoad? Original one measures up roughly 60x130 so figured 50x100 would be sufficient.
Maybe I'm over complicating it with the CDS, it won't give me anything extra other than space....
Mr Ghost's set up is what i was talking about.
Not brave enough to move the tiebar mounting location in/out, especially as I have bushes on the arms still, but pics of the materials used and implementation would be nice!
BRoadGhost
13-11-14, 07:59 PM
http://s29.postimg.org/414vws15j/L_Front_crossmember_03.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/48snrwt0j/L_Front_crossmember_04.jpg
http://s29.postimg.org/oj42x0yc7/L_Front_crossmember_05.jpg
http://s14.postimg.org/nrt5uaitt/L_Front_crossmember_06.jpg
http://s18.postimg.org/a3ewnem3t/L_Front_crossmember_07.jpg
http://s29.postimg.org/et2wv8xjr/08_09_12_A.jpg
Great help thanks. For some reason I was planning on running the bar the other way up, so it's wider than it is tall.
What size box is that?
BRoadGhost
13-11-14, 08:55 PM
3MM wall; imo you want no thinner nor thicker
Good to hear was planning that. I mean what width and height as planning 100x50
BRoadGhost
13-11-14, 09:04 PM
Hmm too long ago to remember measurements; just get something a bit over at the shop & cut it down at the car. I think the smaller bits were just off cuts.
That looks good and strong.
pottersrebel
13-11-14, 10:19 PM
looking at the pictures id guess at 50 mm x 30/40 mm for the front bar and 30mm box section for the tie bar lengths
Mine
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh160/bodmin344/DSC01554_zpsb0c1183a.jpg (http://s255.photobucket.com/user/bodmin344/media/DSC01554_zpsb0c1183a.jpg.html)
50x100 3mm wall
Spot on what I was thinking of doing except after measuring having it straight across like that would make it quite tight for thr exhaust manifold?
BRoadGhost
15-11-14, 10:26 PM
Mhm + the extra weight; doesn't need to be that strong. In an impact it'll push the damage further in.
totalnova
15-11-14, 10:36 PM
Have a look through this, there is some serious cross member fabrication,
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/121358/beige-nova-project-parchment-rust?page=3
In fact the whole thread is welding and fabrication porn, shame it's not been updated in a long time
Southie
15-11-14, 10:44 PM
Have a look through this, there is some serious cross member fabrication,
http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/121358/beige-nova-project-parchment-rust?page=3
In fact the whole thread is welding and fabrication porn, shame it's not been updated in a long time
The count had that thread on here also:
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?161851-The-Counts-Beige-Mk1
totalnova
15-11-14, 11:01 PM
Don't want to go off topic but does anyone know what happened to that car it looked like it was going to be epic.
Southie
15-11-14, 11:08 PM
Don't want to go off topic but does anyone know what happened to that car it looked like it was going to be epic.
PM him, think he may still have it.... Probably sold it on though lol
Spot on what I was thinking of doing except after measuring having it straight across like that would make it quite tight for thr exhaust manifold?
ive gone turbo and made my own manifold / downpipe so it wasnt really a problem for me, theres no reason why it cant be notched if your worried about manifold clearance, for example a 25mm notch in the box would be adequate room and still safe in my opinion.
This is what I am in the process of creating. It's 50x50mm box section with the relevant holes and captive nuts for the tiebar brackets, and 38mm CDS tube to tie them together across the front. It'll be stitched together then boxed over where the round meets the square, then attached up the chassis legs.
It'll be mounted about 20mm lower than a standard crossmember and 5-6mm further forward to gain some castor for free.
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/Misc/rps20141202_165308.jpg
Thoughts welcome.
That looks good and like it will be strong enough, plus get loads of space.
BRoadGhost
02-12-14, 10:52 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/eu29c.jpg
Well it'll set me up for it, whether the bottom bushes will take it or not is another thing. But I can double up the tiebar washer to take it back in 4mm.
BRoadGhost
03-12-14, 06:57 PM
Yeah polys can take a bit of deflection; rose joints are what you'll want on there in time.
Erm.. Don't you wanna pull the bar forward to increase the castor... Surely adding a washer will push it back. So you'll lose castor.
Yes weld the cross member further forward.. If it all goes wrong I'll use 2 washers to restore the original geometry
Ah sorry. Yes wasn't thinking.
Thought I'd put these pics in here to keep all the crossmember examples together for future reference. Pics of how it was built can be seen in my WIP starting here onwards:
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?114446-Iain-s-20XE-Trackday-Nova&p=2253592&viewfull=1#post2253592
Finished pics:
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/025.JPG
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/026.JPG
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/027.JPG
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/028.JPG
It's mounted 4.6mm further forward and 18.5mm lower down than standard.
Should give a nice set up on that.
BRoadGhost
23-12-14, 04:31 PM
Mmm should be good; no looking back now
Stumbled across some pics of Toymex's race car!
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo114/toymex/novaevo2006_zps7c1e9e89.jpg
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo114/toymex/novaevo2002_zpsa4960dd1.jpg
Stumbled across some pics of Toymex's race car!
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo114/toymex/novaevo2006_zps7c1e9e89.jpg
http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo114/toymex/novaevo2002_zpsa4960dd1.jpg
It has worked very well on my car ,I am sure yours will work just as well
Cheers Jezz, just stumbled across it browsing back in your thread for inspiration, some nice little bits of extra bracing here and there on your shell too.
BRoadGhost
27-12-14, 10:28 AM
Yeah; this one's really nice, plus it's got the revision for the dry sump pump
Turns out you really need sleeves for the m10 vertical bolts to stop it crushing the box section.... I've found out the hard way
Anyone got any suggestions for retrofitting them into a finished cross member? Could I get away with just welding in from one end? Or put a huge steel spacer across the top to spread the load instead of pressure points under the bolt heads?
Drill a hole in the top, fit some 10mm ID tube in the hole. Weld up, jobs a carrot!
I was thinking of opening out the bottom hole, leaving the top one and welding it on the bottom then grinding flush. Then the top will crush down onto the sleeve?
Where would I buy 10mm ID sleeve?!
novarally
30-01-15, 07:34 PM
I was thinking of opening out the bottom hole, leaving the top one and welding it on the bottom then grinding flush. Then the top will crush down onto the sleeve?
Where would I buy 10mm ID sleeve?!
You might be lucky and find a tube with 10mm ID, but the easiest way will be to put a 10mm drill through some steel bar.
Found some 16mm OD and 10mm ID CDS on eBay for about 12 quid posted so that'll do me fine. Probably tack it in from one end and let the box crush onto it. Thanks guys
turbojolt
30-01-15, 10:19 PM
Found some 16mm OD and 10mm ID CDS on eBay for about 12 quid posted so that'll do me fine. Probably tack it in from one end and let the box crush onto it. Thanks guys
could you not off robbed the tubing from my scrap front end
Standard ones aren't really usable thanks anyway :)
Found some 16mm OD and 10mm ID CDS on eBay for about 12 quid posted so that'll do me fine. Probably tack it in from one end and let the box crush onto it. Thanks guys
Id think thats prob the best way. Or weld both ends in.
Would ruin my lovely stonechip finish though :( :(
Its stonechip... redo it. Cost like a pound.
BRoadGhost
31-01-15, 04:37 PM
Paint finish on a front cross member will be the last thing on your mind with a wheel moving around in it's arch
Ha ha that puts it into perspective... Tbh the standard one is only spotted in and not welded top and bottom so it doesn't need much to secure in place :)
So what you welded them in both sides?
Not touched it yet. I'll be opening out the bottom hole and welding it into thr bottom as that has a huge spacer to pull through rather than just a bolt head. Then the top will pull down and clamp it on tight.
I would seriously consider welding both holes. In my opinion for the extra time it would take it would be 100% worth it. It will be much stronger in the long run. As Benn says its only stone chip.
Ideally I'd have put the tubes in the box section beforehand and a few tacks would have sufficed to keep it in the right place so don't think it'll give much more benefit. This way the original 10mm hole is retained at the top stopping the bolt head pulling through downwards too.
Will get pics when I do it. :)
Crush tube pics for thread completeness, as I've just seen Chimp's thread where he's done similar.
10mm ID 16mm OD steel CDS tube, length off eBay
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/050.JPG
Bottom holes drilled out to 16mm using a step drill bit
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/051.JPG
Then welded in
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/052.JPG
Crush tubes in place
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2b/053.JPG
I urge anyone doing a custom crossmember to put these in, mine was 3mm wall box and still crushed.
bazzap8389
10-03-15, 04:25 PM
Good job Iain looks the part :)
TOZNOVA81
01-04-15, 08:34 PM
Have just done this with my crossmember.
https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10559848_10153252181608023_2156008056351057248_n.j pg?oh=b02369fc65fe130d57faf5e710aaba8b&oe=55AD8E0A
https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11025744_10153253134768023_2435312522915995866_n.j pg?oh=b1cd799f309f725fd97062163a4f094b&oe=5570EE7A
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/149350_10153253134783023_4937851571689668741_n.jpg ?oh=4907eda9823d3e48c375aa54677a5c24&oe=55A6A1FB&__gda__=1437517095_ef3f57d0e27f0805c034dc94eccbb8f 8
Crush tubes!!! lol nice work
TOZNOVA81
01-04-15, 11:04 PM
:thumb:
double 40mm x 40mm box section with homemade rose joint arms/tie bars set up
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w370/JedDixon88/Photo1650_zpsv6ch2yfg.jpg
TOZNOVA81
03-04-15, 06:58 AM
double 40mm x 40mm box section with homemade rose joint arms/tie bars set up
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w370/JedDixon88/Photo1650_zpsv6ch2yfg.jpg
Is the tow hitch going on there too? lol
haha no, nearest thing i could find to stop it rolling away
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