has my oil pump failed?

[marc69]

the oil light is staying on my xe and there is tappet noise. Is this the oil pump and if so is it a big job?

[Southie]

the oil light is staying on my xe and there is tappet noise. Is this the oil pump and if so is it a big job?
Probably the oil pressure relief valve, take it out and give it a good clean ;)

[marc69]

Where abouts is that?

[therealnovaboy]

most likley the pressure switch. check it for oil leaks

[Benn]

If your oil light is on you really dont want the engine running.

Do you have a pressure gauge?

[philip]

Depending how long its been on....if its not a sticky relief or dicky sensor. Could of knocked big ends out. So new bearings or worse case crank grind.

[Will F]

Tbh if the lights on and it's been running it's too late for your big ends! The pressure sender could do with coming on much earlier!

[marc69]

I have not driven it with the oil light on. There is an oil pressure gauge and on Sunday all was well both with the gauge and the oil light however, I started it yesterday and the gauge reads nothing and the light stayed on. I took the oil cap off to see if oil was spluttering out but it wasn't and as said it was very tappety so I switched it off.

I checked the pressure gauge and oil level all seem fine and the tappet noise made me think that it is more than a faulty gauge.

Will the oil pressure relief valve have stopped the oil flow enough to cause the tappet noise?

[Nobby]

I started it yesterday and the gauge reads nothing and the light stayed on. I took the oil cap off to see if oil was spluttering out but it wasn't and as said it was very tappety so I switched it off.


Answered your own question imo bud, id get a decent gauge on it and check also if you can buy try a know working pressure switch

[Will F]

The relief valve will stop the oil flowing. Period! Thats why the top end was tapping as thats what will suffer first - VERY closely followed by the big ends....

[marc69]

Ok thanks, where is the relief valve and is it easy to remove and clean?

[Southie]

Ok thanks, where is the relief valve and is it easy to remove and clean?
It's on the oil pump, this picture is off the SBD site, they say to replace with a nylon version:

http://www.sbdev.co.uk/Dry_Sump_Systems/Oil_Pump/Oil%20pump.gif

[Benn]

Nylon ones arnt cheap!

Remove yours, give it and and a polish. Refit, while you're check your sender connections.

If all plugged in ok, restart engine and hope it was just the sender.

[Southie]

I'd put it's best to clean it in my earlier post Benn.

Has anyone actually noticed the benefit of having a nylon one though?

[Benn]

Yes can and polish, as you need to check for scoring....

Nylon is only better as it wont stick...

[marc69]

Thanks for the picture etc, it looks as though this is on the outside of the engine block so is easy to access and clean?

Am I correct in saying saying it is at the back near the oil pressure gauge?

[novaxe235]

Nylon can and will stick, I've tried both and on the advice of my engine builder I've gone back to the standard relief valve, from MY own personal experience there is no benefit of running the nylon one, get the original one on a lathe and polish it right up, make sure everythings clean and it should be fine.

ps its on the front of the pump (towards your bumper)

[Will F]

When you remove the big retaining bolt, the relief valve should fall out or slide out really easily if not, it needs a good polish and clean

[marc69]

Thanks, I'll give this a go at the weekend. Hopefully (fingers ccrossed) That is all it is.

[marc69]

I removed and cleaned the relief valve tonight but I switched the engine on for a few seconds and still no oil pressure.....and there was no oil that came out with it.

[marc69]

Again I am stuck.....I recleaned it so that it moves freely on the end of my pinky up and down the bit in the pump housing. There is no differenece.


I also started the car with the relief valve removed and assume loads of oil would come out, not a a drop........is it the pump?

[philip]

Pick up pipe blocked?

[marc69]

Ok, I better look into that aswell thanks, is it more likely to be pick up pipe or the oil pump?

[Will F]

Hard to say for sure, but checking the pick up is free as is unclogging it! Lol. It's more likely to be that than a totally dead pump

[marc69]

Thanks, hope that is all it is, I might buy a new gasket just in case......

[vx kev]

I'd go with taking the sump off and checking the pick up pipe first aswell, so you'll need a new gasket.

[marc69]

Thanks, you'll see Kev that the car hasn't moved since knockhill!

[marc69]

I have removed the pipe and it is free, the relief valve moves freely as in if it is on the end of my pinkie it comes in and out easily. With new oil in and on axle stands at the front, the oil light isn't coming on full stop, I think the angle of the car might be leaving the oil sitting at the sender. The pressure gauge is still zero and it still sounds like a diesel.

Therefore is the only other cause the oil pump?

[philip]

could of broken the gears up in the oil pump. sounding like a tractor could mean you have knocked the big ends out. typically damage wil go from 1 - 4 on the rods so could whip sump off and big end and check to see if they have picked up at all.

[marc69]

Thanks, so it is definitely the oil pump then?

It is just the top end that is noisey as I haven't really run it since the light came on, I had the sump of today for the pick up pipe, I don't know much about engine work but I did try to see if there was any movement in the things that were there and everything was tightly solid. In all honesty, big end/rods etc are way beyond me, I am not sure if even an oil pump is beyond me...!

[Benn]

0 pressure and running it means damage. Simple as, unless you are some how very very very luck.

I wouldn't run a car with 0 pressure.

You need to get the oil pump off and try another, Id remove a crack cap too and look for scoring on the crank/bearing. If they haven't had oil on them they could be buggered.

Iirc the pump is 8 bolts. Then a philps to get the pump its self apart.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

you can do it, youve got the skills marc :thumb:

like phil said, yours might possibly look like a bit like this on the inside :

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r281/ronniecourt/all%202/all%203/IMG_8411.jpg

[jimbob-mcgrew]

this might help marc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmmcj53TNic

[marc69]

Thanks for the encouragement, am I right is saying it is similar as Haynes guide for the ohc 1.2/1.3??

Removal of cambelt, and pulleys and back plate etc to get to the pump? Bearing in mind it took me 5 hours to change the cambelt earlier this year....I am not joking.

If I am capable to do the pump, is there an easy way to see if I have damaged the engione/scored anything whilst I am there?

[philip]

Whip big end bearings off rods. Generally you will see bearings picked up/spun/damaged. Otherwise without measuring crank theres no other way too tell. (Thats if bearings look ok)

[jimbob-mcgrew]

am I right is saying it is similar as Haynes guide for the ohc 1.2/1.3?? Removal of cambelt, and pulleys and back plate etc to get to the pump?

^ yeah, pretty much the same marc, with a few extra bits in the way of the back plate.

the haynes says for c20xe :
---------------------------
- remove all the pulleys/sprockets/rollers/tensioner to gain access to the back plate.
- remove the sump, the oil pickup pipe, and the baffle plate.
- unbolt the oil pump
- clean up all the mating faces. smear the new oil pump gasket with grease and place it on the pump.
- grease the lips of the oil seal and refit the pump, being careful not to damage the oil seal as it passes over the crank.

if you spin the engine over so the timing marks are lined up before you pull it apart, will make things easier

hope that helps :thumb:

[meritlover]

if you have already taken the sump off you are only 2 bolts away from changing each bottom end bearing (big ends likely to be more wasted than mains). But its too early to jump to conclusions.

[marc69]

Thanks for that,I'll probably be a few weeks building up the courage to even start it..unless anyone is near Aberdeen and wants to help!

[DAFTJOHN]

Have you tried the sender? My 1.3 was showing 0 pressure at idle but there was loads of oil in the cam box. Swapped over the switch and now shows the correct good pressure.

[marc69]

Have you tried the sender? My 1.3 was showing 0 pressure at idle but there was loads of oil in the cam box. Swapped over the switch and now shows the correct good pressure.
Unfortunately there is no question about the oil pressure, there is no oil getting pumped in the engine at all, I wish it was just a bad pressure sender.

[Benn]

Then for Christ sake, don't run the engine.

[marc69]

Then for Christ sake, don't run the engine.

This engine won't turn again until the new pump is fitted and I have checked as much as I can, probably in a few weeks time!

[marc69]

I have geared myself up phsycologically (apologies for the gear pun) to think about starting this, apparently there are two different oil pumps for these.

My xe is a coil pack so would this be the correct one for my car?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-ASTRA-CALIBRA-CAVALIER-C20XE-REDTOP-OIL-PUMP-ROUND-PICK-UP-PIPE-/380905293245?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item58afb985bd

[jimbob-mcgrew]

I have geared myself up phsycologically

ghwaaan marc, youve got this :)

.. about the pump.
if your not in any hurry, probably best to pull the old one off first before you order. save ordering the wrong one.

[meritlover]

I agree with mr Bob.

[marc69]

I can't get the bottom pulley off, I had the handbrake on, footbrake on in gear etc with an extension bar and broke a socket....and yes I tried heat. Any ideas...please!

[meritlover]

jam the breaker bar on the ground and crack the starter.

[meritlover]

wait, you broke a socket?! get a better socket and try again with the above.

[marc69]

jam the breaker bar on the ground and crack the starter.

Thanks, guess what I am doing tomorrow lol!

[marc69]

wait, you broke a socket?! get a better socket and try again with the above.

Yes, that's why I can't do it until I buy another socket, oh the fun.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

i'd get a 6 sided impact socket if poss. there a much more solid fit than the 12 sided, and less likely to break. (there usually black, and a bit chunkier than normal)

to get it un-done, i normally take the flywheel cover plate off (3 x 11mm bolts at the underside of the gearbox) .. and wedge a large flat blade screwdriver inbetween the flywheel teeth and engine casing, to lock the crank while you undo it.

ive come across a few that were fookin tight, and required straining with a breaker bar, and some others that i could undo with a half inch ratchet.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

jam the breaker bar on the ground and crack the starter.

oof, thats brutal ! ... i like it

[Benn]

jam the breaker bar on the ground and crack the starter.

I got slated for saying that in another thread... Yet it works every time.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

ive not tried it myself, but can imagine as long as your carefull with flicking the starter, i dont see why it wouldnt work.

i have to do a cambelt change soon myself, and i think ill try this method out. it sounds quick and easy.

sometimes heavily rusted or mega tight bolts like that, respond better to a 'shock' release ive noticed too.

[marc69]

tried it and it doesn't work, just jams the starter....seriously!

[meritlover]

if its as tight as that, you either need someone with an air impact gun, or you need to get a tool to lock the crank properly.

it must be real tight.

either that or get brave and distance the bar from the ground a bit so the starter has time to get some momentum into the crank before it cracks off the ground.

as Mr Bob says, tight bolts need a 'moment' applied to get them loose.

stay safe.

xx

[marc69]

Thanks, would it be a good idea to get it towed to a tyre fitting place and see if they will use their air gun on it? I assume I sit with the handbrake, car in gear and foot brake hard.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

if youve got something you can slide over your breaker bar, like a pipe or bar, for more leverage, try locking the flywheel with a large flatblade screwdriver, and have a go at undo'ing it.

might come off that way, and would save massive hassles towing the car back and forth to a garage

[L14MNP]

tried it and it doesn't work, just jams the starter....seriously!

Sure you are going the right way?

It has always worked for me. There's some serious torque in a starter!

[marc69]

if youve got something you can slide over your breaker bar, like a pipe or bar, for more leverage, try locking the flywheel with a large flatblade screwdriver, and have a go at undo'ing it.

might come off that way, and would save massive hassles towing the car back and forth to a garage

I think there is an old exhaust pipe lying about so I might have a go at that at the weekend. Thanks

[marc69]

Went to a tyre fitting place, tried with two air guns, no joy.....the manager of the place tried with a second air gun, He reckons that more pressure will make the bolt split.....I will try again here today with an extension bar and hammer....

[jimbob-mcgrew]

feck :(

[marc69]

Exactly!!!

[Andy]

well if all else fails id grind the bolt head off.
Then heat and molegrips on the rest of it.

[philip]

I had one yday for house1983' engine.hadimpact gun on it, bar, made no odda. Had too put on an engine stand and bigger breaker bar too undo. Tightest Ive had too take off.may have too do same thing.

[Benn]

Iiirc with the head off the bolt it loses all strength and the thread will just unscrew, so as Andy said. Grind the top off.

[marc69]

SOME SUCCESS!!!
I tried yesterday again with some mates, got nowhere, tried again today, the nut started rounding but then all of a sudden, it just turned and then by hand! Probably a combination of all the different techniques over the last week?

So some more advice please...... the two cam pulleys look a bit worn on the inside, can I take two from any DOHC Vauxhall engine in the scrap yard or are they specific just to the c20xe?

I will remove the exhaust and sump etc in the next few days when I get a chance and hopefully get the oil pump out at last.

Also I will need to read back to see how to look for any engine damage......

[joff-turbo-nova]

SOME SUCCESS!!!
I tried yesterday again with some mates, got nowhere, tried again today, the nut started rounding but then all of a sudden, it just turned and then by hand! Probably a combination of all the different techniques over the last week?

So some more advice please...... the two cam pulleys look a bit worn on the inside, can I take two from any DOHC Vauxhall engine in the scrap yard or are they specific just to the c20xe?

I will remove the exhaust and sump etc in the next few days when I get a chance and hopefully get the oil pump out at last.

Also I will need to read back to see how to look for any engine damage......

The coilpack engine has different shaped cam teeth than the dizzy type engine (one is round the other are square) so you need to make sure you are getting the right ones - part numbers should help which should be stamped on the pulleys somewhere

Joff

[jimbob-mcgrew]

SUCCESS!

nice one marc. good job.

make sure you cast that cursed bolt, far out, into the north sea when your finished lol

not sure about the cam pulleys.

remember to put lock thread on all those pulley bolts too.

your getting there :thumb:

[marc69]

Well.....the oil pump is off, at last! , here it is.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo743_zps514bc30a.jpg


Now is this one off ebay the same...it looks a bit different at the top, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-ASTRA-CALIBRA-CAVALIER-C20XE-REDTOP-OIL-PUMP-ROUND-PICK-UP-PIPE-/380905293245?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item58afb985bd#ht_1201wt_904



or is this the right one? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-ASTRA-CALIBRA-CAVALIER-C20XE-LATE-OIL-PUMP-ROUND-PICK-UP-PIPE-/380951295673?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item58b27776b9#ht_1103wt_1037



Next job whilst waiting on parts is to check there is no serious engine damage, if anyone wants to give an idiots directions for an easyish way to do this, I would appreciate it, I have never been in the bottom end of an engine before and don't really know what is what etc.

[joff-turbo-nova]

Looks like the 2nd one is the right one due to the casting at the top - however the Trechii stuff doesn't have such a good reputation with Vauxhall stuff - their hydraulic lifters are pants and stop working after a few months. You may be better getting a genuine like this...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/c20xe-oil-pump-kit-car-rally-race-/261562511515?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3ce657309b

Joff

[Benn]

Take the pump apart and check it out, might not need replacing.

Sump off,
Unbolt one of the piston caps, they are 13mm bolts of iirc, then you'll see the bearing and where it sits. Looks for scoring or blueing...

[philip]

14mm bolts. take the cap off nearest the oil pump as that tends to be the first too fail.

[marc69]

Thanks, I'll have a look at that over the weekend.

The original question has been answered..."has my oil pump failed?" here you go..............

http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo744_zps42c98101.jpg

[Southie]

So after all that you answered it yourself lol

At least it's a learning curve for you doing all the hardworking ;) Well done.

[meritlover]

well there's ya prahblem...

in a way im kinda happy for you that it was this all along because now you know what it is. But more that you took on your fears and got cracked on.

Hopefully the engine damage is minimal, but if you have come this far, you would be as well replaceing the big ends while you have them off for inspection. Mains might be ok, but its an engine out or crank out job to do them properly.

its strange/fortunate it happened symultaneously with the gearbox failure.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

if you can afford it, for the sake of the extra £12, id deffo go for the genuine one, that joff linked, as ive heard the cheap ones sometimes only last 10 or 20 thousand miles.

I second what loverboy said too. now next time, or for even bigger jobs, youll be more confident to get stuck in :thumb:

if theres any shell bearing damage, or wear, and you decide to replace them, id double check the measurements of your existing ones, as i just had a quick look on the bay, and it appears they come in 2 different widths. 19.30 and 20.30 mm, and some are labelled as 'oversize' too, which im not fully clued up on myself, but understand that if you have the crank re-ground to a smidge smaller size, or theres alot of wear in it, there used to make up for the gap, or new size.
looks like they can be bought on ebay for £20 to £30 (set of 8).

im not sure if the con rod bolts need replacing once there taken out. they may be re-useable ?, but youll have to check.
ive noticed people that race, usually replace them with ARP bolts, but there kinda pricey (£55 on ebay)

[marc69]

Here is what I think is the shell/big end? nearest the oil pump....

http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo746_zps0f261f4e.jpg


It still had some oil all around and I can't really see any markings.......not the best photo either.

If these do need replacing, can I re-use the bolts? Do they go to the same torque as smallblock Nova engine ones? Also from what Jim-bob was saying, what size of shells do I need for tis engine?

Merit lover, I also wondered if the oil pump fractured when the gearbox disintegrated....perhaps the sudden jerk was enough to cause it?


Thanks so far everyone for the advice and help, that is now 8 weeks off the road....hopefully back on in a week or so.

[jimbob-mcgrew]

they look ok to me. i cant see any scoring or excessive wear on either side.

about the bolts: says in the haynes manual for c20xe, "refit and tighten to specified torque"
so you should be ok.

torque wrench settings in the manual say,

big-end bearing caps:
---------------------
stage 1 - 35 newton meters or 26 pounds foot.
stage 2 - tighten a further 45 to 60 degrees.

[meritlover]

That shell looks very good from the photo.
Yes you can re use the bolts.
I dont think we'll ever know how it failed. It just did.

Withe the condition of that shell id be tempted to box it back up and run it.
It will sound awful for the first 30 secs or so while the tappets prime and fill. But should clear.

A tip would be to remove the spark plugs and spin it over on the starter until the oil light goes out. Then go for a start.

[marc69]

Thanks, I'll get cracking as soon as the parts come home, I am so lucky the shells are ok! With no parts here it means I can do no work on it over the weekend....I need a rest lol

[marc69]

A few more questions please...

I can't remember where the big washer goes, am I right in assuming it goes between the oil pump and crank pulley?

What is this in the sump at the bottom of the picture? (just being nosey, it isn't wired into the loom)

http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo747_zps353b7d31.jpg

And what is this oil seal for?http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo748_zpsdcb8fc92.jpg

[Iain]

Big fat washer sits on the crank behind the pulley and in the oil seal in the pump.

That's an oil level sensor, nobody bothers wiring them in on Novas generally.

That seal would be an oil pump seal?

(Sorry not read the rest of the thread there's 9 pages lol)

[joff-turbo-nova]

Id be getting the carb cleaner out on that sump to clear the crud off !

Thinners will also work a treat!

Joff

[meritlover]

Check the mesh on the pickup is clean too. Looks ok but hard to see from the pic.

[marc69]

Thanks, I am getting geared up (bad pun) to start as soon as the stuff comes home, I expect by the weekend. Realised today I don't have an oil filter in stock...silly boy!

[marc69]

Oil Pressure...woo hoo!

Just a shame I cocked up putting it back together and now it's running bad! Another thread on cam timing me thinks!

[jimbob-mcgrew]

got pressure :thumb:

did you do the belt like this ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/chemfish/A8.jpg

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l363/geffd/2011-03-31162052.jpg

[marc69]

Thanks for those,

the aftermarket pulley has no markings but...looking at that diagram, if I mark the pulley exactly opposite the notch in the shaft? Or, maybe the pulley bit for the altenator belt comes of to reveal marks? I'll have a look tomorrow. I also wonder if the bad running was due to not going for two months and the engine bay including elctrics getting soaked tonight?

[Benn]

No, get the engine set to tdc, then mark the bottom pulley where the marker is on the cam belt backing plate.
I had to do the same cause of the stupid alloy pulleys.