View Full Version : C16SE head on a 1300 block, CR ratio
Anyone know what the compression ratio will be with a 1300 block and a C16SE head?
Or a explanation on how to measure it?
Edd
Scottcooper85
30-03-14, 02:22 PM
I don't think changing the head will alter the compression ration will it? Unless a different thickness of gasket was used. I thought compression ratio was all to do with the block. Bore, stroke, etc. sure someone will know better.
Novasport
30-03-14, 03:34 PM
The C16SE has a larger combustion area iirc so it would lower the CR.
You not using the low compression pistons Edd?
The C16SE has a larger combustion area iirc so it would lower the CR.
You not using the low compression pistons Edd?
Using the low comp pistons mean getting the bottom end there currently in stripped and rebuilt, atm I don't have the funds to do this atm
What shape is your ports on the inlet manifold?
I've seen issues with opening up round port heads to cathedral shape to take the irmsher inlet for carbs,
Round I think, would need to check to be 100% tho
What problem have you seen?
turbojolt
30-03-14, 04:26 PM
need something like this clicky (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cylinder-Head-CC-Kit-for-measuring-combustion-chambers-/300993449341?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item46149b8d7d) im sure you can make something up for really cheap
Cutting into water passages trying to achieve matching ports renders the head scrap obviously
Can someone tell me what to measure and how to work out the CR?
I have the C16se head on it's own and a standard 1300 block with no head on if that helps
to measure the cr of an engine, you need a sheet of Perspex, some bolts & a decent size syringe.
drill the Perspex so it lines up with 4 head bolts & drill 2 small holes into the centre, one for filling, one for air drainage
you measure the head by clamping the Perspex sheet onto the flat face, make sure the spark plug is in, and then measure oil into the syringe & then measure it out into the combustion chamber.. this needs to be in ml or cc.
then you do the same at tdc on the block to get the piston/bore capacity. in ml or cc.
then you measure the thickess & bore of the head gasket in cm, then do a calculation:
(bore in cm/2)x(bore in cm/2)x3.14159x thickness of gasket(in cm) this gets the head gasket volume.
a 1300cc block means approx. 325cc per bore.
so the sum is (head volume+gasket volume+piston volume+325cc)/(head volume+gasket volume+piston volume)
Novasport
30-03-14, 08:18 PM
Cutting into water passages trying to achieve matching ports renders the head scrap obviously
Although the basic casting on the 13SB & C16SE is the same, the water gallery next to cylinder four goes under the inlet port on the C16 but not on the 13SB. Could be very easy to open the port up at the bottom and break through into the gallery.
Novasport
30-03-14, 08:21 PM
Bit difficult to see in the pic but the combustion area on the C16SE head(on the left) is much bigger and deeper than the 13SB area.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/20140330_194733_zps91f91617.jpg
E16SE combustion chamber is 10cc off the top of my head. cant find my notebook though so it might be wrong
EDIT: & Ffs if your going to turbo it dont ruin the 16se head by porting it to 1300 ports, put the bloody pistons in
jimbob-mcgrew
31-03-14, 03:18 AM
G - 8 - 8:5 to 1
L - 8.5 - 9 to 1
N - 9 - 9:5 to 1
S - 9.5 - 10 to 1
with standard pistons, I think it might drop it a category or 2 ?
with your lower comp pistons, a bit further I woulda thought
I've been on a head cc mission this morning for all the projects i'm doing atm at work. What pistons do people use on the 1.6 turbo application? Cant remember if there is a difference in block height and stroke and big end journal size etc, but couldnt a corsa vxr piston and rod fit a 16se?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/p526x296/1601273_10152101690504926_1130104841_n.jpg
I've been on a head cc mission this morning for all the projects i'm doing atm at work. What pistons do people use on the 1.6 turbo application? Cant remember if there is a difference in block height and stroke and big end journal size etc, but couldnt a corsa vxr piston and rod fit a 16se?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/p526x296/1601273_10152101690504926_1130104841_n.jpg
different gudgeon pin diameters mate
But you should be able to use the rod as well to solve that problem? Unless there different rod lengths? Never really looked into it tbh. I haven't got a 1600 8v rod/piston to look at.
But you should be able to use the rod as well to solve that problem? Unless there different rod lengths? Never really looked into it tbh. I haven't got a 1600 8v rod/piston to look at.
Im almost certain corsa vxr rods are bigger bearing diameter @ crankshaft end, ive got some in my workshop so ill measure them for you when i go round in a bit
Let me know the diamensions for the 8v rod, i have the corsa vxr ones here.
Let me know the diamensions for the 8v rod, i have the corsa vxr ones here.
8v ones are the ones i dont have lol
I was going to use forged vxr rods and pistons, but that was far too easy so decided to something far more complicated lol
8v ones are the ones i dont have lol ahh. I'll go see if theres an 1.6 8v in the engine build workshop, its the only vaux engine i dont think we have lol
Edd, what intake are you planning to use?
You can (just about) reverse calculate the compression ratio if you assume the swept capacity is right as per the haynes manual. http://www.slindborg.host.sk/compressionratio/index.php
calculate for a 1600, using the CR and swpet capacity from haynes, then use the 1600 clearence volume with the 1300 swept.
Its a bit rough but itll give you a good clue.
Assuming you use a proper bit of engine management and intake cooling, I'd not be scared to use 10:1 CR etc.
c16se are 9.8:1 standard c:r anyways iirc. With the size in head difference that looks like it could bring it under 9:1 as that visually looks like there could be 10cc in that difference. Obviously its hard to say without cc'ing either. I dont think cometic or athena do gaskets for the 8v's unless the 16v one will fit, as you could lower the compression ratio by running a slight thicker gasket, not the ideal method but it works. Be interesting to know the difference between the head differences.
Stu, I want to use the irmscher inlet I currently have fitted as it will still look semi original
The inlet is cathedral shape tho
I also think you wouldn't have to take that much off to match the inlets
The low comp pistons is the best route to go tbh but a head swap is cheaper and easier
you could always 'round off' the inlet...
Stu, I want to use the irmscher inlet I currently have fitted as it will still look semi original
The inlet is cathedral shape tho
I also think you wouldn't have to take that much off to match the inlets
The low comp pistons is the best route to go tbh but a head swap is cheaper and easier
if you dont have the cash to do it with decent pistons whats the point?
thing is you dont HAVE to do it with pistons... hell even the standard 1300 head would be FINE with a sensible build.
10+:1 CR is NOT to be feared with boost!
if you dont have the cash to do it with decent pistons whats the point?
If swapping a head has the same result why not?
thing is you dont HAVE to do it with pistons... hell even the standard 1300 head would be FINE with a sensible build.
10+:1 CR is NOT to be feared with boost!
I might get shot down in flames for this bit..........
I'm considering initially running with standard management with a vacuum sensitive microswitch
http://cdn.deguisetoi.fr/images/rep_articles/gra/bi/deguisement-de-big-cowboy-adulte-homme_5.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=1rUww0mWg3wtnM&tbnid=acGPzn67_HdlwM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vegaoo.co.uk%2Fa-big-cowboy-costume-for-men.html&ei=WJQ5U-G1EOyZ0QWvxYCwCg&bvm=bv.63808443,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNGyVNgRS8fmc0_oUQhzZBpFj25_zw&ust=1396368820898799)
Personally Edd i wouldn't consider it without proper management. You wouldn't get reliability or results without imo.
Personally Edd i wouldn't consider it without proper management. You wouldn't get reliability or results without imo.
Craig had a reliable 165bhp from his Courtenay converted 1600 8v using standard management with mircoswitch running 8psi
I'm just saying if it was me. For the price you can get management nowadays.
I'm just saying if it was me. For the price you can get management nowadays.
i know where your coming from, after buying our house i just dont have the spare cash to blow on the nova lol
i would just like the turbo stuff on really, want it done as cheaply and reliable as possible
Novasport
31-03-14, 08:08 PM
Just my opinion but with cash being a little tight I would hold off on the conversion.
Get it up and running and finish any jobs that need doing. Then get it on the road and enjoy it. Get to some shows too. Once you have had some fun in it then get some money saved, get a spare engine to tinker with then when you are ready do the conversion take off the road again.
Having a fun car to drive is not all about big power figures. Some of the most fun cars have little revvy engines that you can thrash about in.
Usually with more power comes more reliability issues
^What he said. If it was a cheap homebrew bit of fun it would be different, but the car its going on is special so i'd say save up and do it properly eventually :)
A cheap turbo build will end in expensive tears....
A cheap turbo build will end in expensive tears....
I like that quote stuart, might have to start using it :p
Cheap, power, reliability. Sums every engine build up.
i would just like the turbo stuff on really, want it done as cheaply and reliable as possible
pick one or the other, they dont go hand in hand!!
Cheap, power, reliability. Sums every engine build up.
I bet you get that alot phil lol. I want a reliable 800bhp 40mpg and i have a £300 budget.
craig green
01-04-14, 03:08 PM
I like that quote stuart, might have to start using it :p
Personally I see it that it's more to do with knowhow than budget.
Now, I appreciate there is some crazy hardon for 'originality' but bolting a turbo on and a different head its taking that step away already.
What you 'could' do as a short term thing is to run the 1600 head, with the 1600 intake manifold etc. That way you reduce the CR as per your poor fuelling/spark control ideas and then at a later date once youve settled the house down and proven that the engine is working, consider the step to the ermscher (yes) manifold and suitable mods to THAT (not the head) to make the air flow properly.
ORRRRRRR, say **** it and build it how you see fit and dont come crying when it does a lotus and eats an engine at idle lol
Novasport
01-04-14, 03:54 PM
Surprised nobody has mentioned fitting a C20LET yet lol
Surprised nobody has mentioned fitting a C20LET yet lol
this is not migweb
Surprised nobody has mentioned fitting a C20LET yet lol
Two things you should never ever do to a nova
1 - run without a front ARB
2 - ruin it by fitting a big block
craig green
01-04-14, 11:51 PM
Now, I appreciate there is some crazy hardon for 'originality' but bolting a turbo on and a different head its taking that step away already.
What I'd do is use the whole 1600 motor & swap the rocker cover for the irmscher 1300 item.
craig green
01-04-14, 11:51 PM
Oh & bin the anti roll bar (ballast).
ben doodar
03-04-14, 02:13 PM
intersting topic for me as id like to build a e16se turbo engine for my nova, ive been gradually gathering some parts for the build.
Craig ive been meaning to send you a pm asking some questions about the one you had.
how did you find it reliabilty wise? ive done alot of reading online some people saying the only way is using after market manegment others saying the standard managment can be used.
so from a person who has had a turbo conversion using standard manegment, not just some one who 'thinks' it will or wont work.
how many miles did you cover in yours and what problems did you encounter?
ive spoke to as many people as possible about the conversion even spoke to mike from mikeanics motorsport in cheshire about it, one thing he did say that people often forget about doing these home brew turbo builds is the ignition timing, he said back in the 80's and 90's when this sort of thing was more common people used a boost activated switch (which ive since bought and added to my collection) to retard the ignition to save the engine detonating.
he thinks the standard mangemnt would be up to the job as long as its only running low boost with a rising rate fpr.
also more back to the original topic is there a different head that could be fitted to the 1600 to lower the compresion?
Why run low boost and gain sod all though? I dont get it...
Should be able to get a nice reliable 150-180bhp by doing it 'properly' imho... I know I havent dont the build nor run it, but having been in the ecu software game I understand the rights and wrongs of engine calibration.
Ben Courtenay used a 1.5 mm spacer plate between 2 head gaskets to lower the CR
I spoke with ferriday engineering a while back and he offered me a different solution of using an aluminium alloy plate the you would bond to the head thus only using 1 gasket and allowing higher boost pressures
But with more boost comes more heat more stress and more control of ignition and fueling
Going for a higher CR would be ok ish provided you didnt get greedy with boost.
My S3 runs 9.5:1 at 12psi but the standard internals are ment to good for 350-400bhp
Imo it comes down a simple case of budget.
Personally ive decided to only use the E16 block, head, cam box and inlet to retain the standard look, I want power without compromises
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