View Full Version : Best suspension height for handling
My xe is on a lowered suspension but the handling wasn't great, it understeers. I have since gotten bigger wheels which are wider (rolled the arches yesterday)and am waiting for my toyo t1rs to arrive.
The suspension compises of this
Fk rear dampers and springs 40mm lower and really stiff
Fk front adjustable coilovers with uprated 325lb springs. The front is lowered by 60mm and the camber is set at 1 degree negative.
The question is....I moved the front hieght adjusters by 10mm yeaterday and then once the car had settled it was actually only 5mm lower, is this what normally happens?
I have no back end problems with the car, it is the tendancy to understeer which is the issue although I hope the wheels and new tyes will make a massive difference.
I don't want to lower the front more incase the car ends up sitting on shockers under cornering rather than springs and also I don't want to loose the good rear end handling.
This is all for track use.
What do other folk use or advise regarding best handling height?
novatracker
30-12-13, 10:23 PM
in sure the factory build manual was 1.5degree neg camber.
in sure the factory build manual was 1.5degree neg camber.
for standard models it is 1 degree positive, however I know of two guys that use track cars on 1.5 negative. I have opted just now for 1 degree negative as a bit of a comprimise as it is also used on the road.
Johnny A
30-12-13, 10:33 PM
About 25mm is optimum for a good roll centre
About 25mm is optimum for a good roll centre
as in only 25mm from standard height? That would be quite a raise on the front (a lot more comfortable on road use!)
Is this just for the front as the rear is unadjustable?
Johnny A
30-12-13, 10:43 PM
Geometry isn't really effected on the rear of a Nova lol
As low as possible without being on the bumpstops
As low as possible without being on the bumpstops
Whereabouts are the bumpstops? Although I reckon I'll won't reach them beofre the exhaust is in danger lol
30lb springs arnt hard really. So the coilover i'm guessing is set to max stiffness.
You'want a harder spring, with softer rebound really. From what i've learnt.
30lb springs arnt hard really. So the coilover i'm guessing is set to max stiffness.
You'want a harder spring, with softer rebound really. From what i've learnt.
Your right, the springs are 325lb..oops my mistake, sorry.
Not trying to be rude but, you've dumped a XE in the front and wonder why it understeers? lol
Not trying to be rude but, you've dumped a XE in the front and wonder why it understeers? lol
True but I'm trying to get it as best as I can on a tightish budget so I uprated the springs from 260lb to 325lb, changing from 185/55/14 Marangonis (heard of them lol) to 195/45/15 Toyo tr1s, hopefully more balance and grip.....but yes, the xe is nowhere near as agile as my previous track car (1.4 8v)
Not trying to be rude but, you've dumped a XE in the front and wonder why it understeers? lol
Thats not true, my XE was overtaking everything at knockhill including marc's nova lol
Handling is a very personal thing when you're trying to get it bang on. However I found the best handling balance for me and my Nova with a taller rear end, almost close to standard at the back and lowered at the front, but I only learned that after putting up with it low all-round for almost my whole time racing it!
I went in to more depth with the Saxo VTR racer I just sold (lifting and lowering the rear didn't require new parts!). I was back to standard rear ride height at the back, but with stiff dampers (although this was with the rear torsion bar set up), and 320lb springs on the front with Leda adjustable dampers. I had a shorter spring on the passenger side to compensate for the weight on the driver's side (but you can use spacers if you aren't bound by championship regulations). It was right on the limit of our ride height rules at the front. This taking weight away from the rear got the front end a load of extra bite at the expense of being lighter at the rear. This suits me as I'm not very aggressive with my initial steering input, and allows the car to "rotate" slightly on turn-in, especially when trailing the brake. That rotation 'points' the nose towards the apex so I can bury the throttle a little earlier. Not to everybody's taste, but works for me.
I'm looking to run a about 700lb rear springs on the rear of my new Nova, need to measure for the heights I want when the engine and everything else is in. The extra height also has the added bonus of protecting the rear tyres from the arches when inevitable contact occurs ;)
The only thing is not a lot of people like the look of a low front, tall rear combo. Think of it like a 'wedge'. But it does make sun visors/sunstrips super effective lol
P.S If you're REALLY on a tight budget, try over-inflating the rear tyres. When my Nova was low all-round I used to run 40psi+ in the rears to REDUCE the rear grip. Not a permanent solution but it gives you an idea. Think of it as 'grip-biasing' ;)
Thanks, some very usefull advice and perhaps one of my new questions answered!
I have been out today and lowered it significantly, the driver's side is 90mm lower (than standard) and the passenger is 100mm, I wasn't sure if this was a good idea to compensate for me being in the driver's seat but looks like the question has been answered by kbf71, great.
However, it is low at the front, two more questions..
1) are the front wheels likely to hit the wing on hard cornering?
2) there seems to be only a little amount of springing left when you put pressure on it as it stands, on cornering am I going to end up more on the shockers than the springs?
Regarding what you were saying about making the rear looser, I am not at that level of driving and have always been wary (after smashing one) at how easily rear ends lose grip on Novas, in my experience once they swing the 2nd direction it is really hard (and unsuccessful for me) to pull it back in line. I want to keep the rear as tight as possible, although it doesn't seemt to have raised any since lowering the front today, I understand what you said about the weight distribution.
Look at the tyre and the arch, is there a gap? If no then they'll hit...
Turn the wheels to lock to lock see where the tyre to the arch is...
What do you mean a little springing left? As in how much it will move? Sprung over unsprung?
Look at the tyre and the arch, is there a gap? If no then they'll hit...
Turn the wheels to lock to lock see where the tyre to the arch is...
What do you mean a little springing left? As in how much it will move? Sprung over unsprung?
There is a gap of a finger, about 10mm, with the wheel turned and me pushing on the wing they don't hit, but might be diffwerent with severe cornering?
What I mean with the springing is when I press down on the wing, it only moves a tiny bit and is really stiff. I don't know what you mean by sprung/oversprung exactly but basically to lower the suspension, the plate that the spring sits on the strut has been lowered to lower the car if that makes more sense.
There is a chance that by lowering the spring so much, you've reduced a lot of the spring's tension. IIRC spring poundage is measured by compressing the spring by about an inch, so in theory your spring is only 325lb when compressed by that amount. If you've spun the collar down a long way then you may find that you could do now with a slightly longer spring if you want to run at that height! There is a good chance you've got most of the load on the damper, but under cornering loads you're going to produce much higher forces than you can by jumping on the wing. Do you have an pictures of how it sits now?
What I wrote earlier is how I find the most speed in my car. In an ideal world you could bolt on the parts to give you infinite grip so you could attack any corner at any speed! In theory an impeccably-balanced chassis wouldn't need sophisticated suspension to make it handle. That's why the old BMW M3 SuperTouring car of the 80's remained competitive for so long - a number of the drivers believed it to be one of the best balanced cars of all time, so much so that the limited suspension technology was still ample to get to it where they liked. These days suspension technology has improved so much that the chassis' balance isn't as crucial, as the problems can be 'dialled out' with what we have available. But when you can't make things perfect, you just have to figure out how to get it to work :)
If you find the car is snappy once you've finally pushed it through the understeer phase of it's cornering, then I would still prompt you to loosen up the rear! Adjust it progressively and see how it goes. I found with the Saxo, that the looser rear end made the car LESS snappy, as the grip wasn't SUDDENLY letting go. Any oversteer I promoted in the car by arriving at a corner too quickly or riding too much brake came in quite 'lazily' with easy adjustment to sort it out. By that I mean the back end of the car would pull back in line quite comfortably inside of pitching me from side-to-side like you describe - which is exactly how my first Nova handled before I started playing with it! And it was only by making those mistakes that I realised I could use those characteristics to actually improve my laptimes when I got the confidence :thumb:
I used to be mega wary of oversteer too after my first crash. I was over it by the second, third, fourth and fifth though :p
There is a chance that by lowering the spring so much, you've reduced a lot of the spring's tension. IIRC spring poundage is measured by compressing the spring by about an inch, so in theory your spring is only 325lb when compressed by that amount. If you've spun the collar down a long way then you may find that you could do now with a slightly longer spring if you want to run at that height! There is a good chance you've got most of the load on the damper, but under cornering loads you're going to produce much higher forces than you can by jumping on the wing. Do you have an pictures of how it sits now?
Are you familiar with how a coilover height adjustment works? By lowering the platform the spring tension is unchanged, and by fitting a longer spring with the same poundage you'll just wind down the platform further and gain nothing at all.
Worth a go with the new height, but don't forget you'll have massively affected the toe so that'll change how it feels when turning in.
I run 325lb on the front of my XE Nova and it does handle, so I'd try and look at rear spring poundages, anti roll bars, tyres and the geometry up front. A limited slip diff and change of driving style should pull you round corners and eliminate a lot of understeer though?!
Pistol Pete
03-01-14, 10:23 AM
What poundage do you run on the rear Iain?
As said, can all vary depending on personal preferences. I have an xe in mine. So many people said it would be undriveable etc. lol check my video from combe....
There is a gap of a finger, about 10mm, with the wheel turned and me pushing on the wing they don't hit, but might be diffwerent with severe cornering?
What I mean with the springing is when I press down on the wing, it only moves a tiny bit and is really stiff. I don't know what you mean by sprung/oversprung exactly but basically to lower the suspension, the plate that the spring sits on the strut has been lowered to lower the car if that makes more sense.
There will be more force on there when at speeds and such, so you might find they'll rub. So maybe lift the car a tiny bit to clear. Or pull your arches abit. I did that on mine, pulled them out gently a few times to clear my tyres.
I know how you've lowred them, and they will only move a tiny bit. Firm is what you want, as it gives the better ride and feel as there is no body roll.
If i push mine, the only movement is in the tyres..lol
Here is how it is sitting now, it actually looks higher in the pic for some reason?
Regarding how the spring sits, jacked up with no pressure the springs are 7" and with car sitting as normal they are only 5" in hieght so poundage should be fine.
I assume the real benefit if any from going so much lower will be a lower centre of gravity? I hope once the new tyres arrive and are fitted that all this work will give some more grip which is the point for me.
Here's the pic
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo638_zps2898bf7b.jpg
There will be more force on there when at speeds and such, so you might find they'll rub. So maybe lift the car a tiny bit to clear. Or pull your arches abit. I did that on mine, pulled them out gently a few times to clear my tyres.
I know how you've lowred them, and they will only move a tiny bit. Firm is what you want, as it gives the better ride and feel as there is no body roll.
If i push mine, the only movement is in the tyres..lol
I moght not get mine as stiff as that, first pothole and the strut will be through the turret lol. But I get what you mean and it iis now very stiff.
lol no it's not fully best. Kinda funny tho.
Basically, go out and try it and see how it goes. Start slow and build up speed. See how it handles and see if it rubs.
Edit! Christ looking at that pic you have miles of room! My tyres touch the arch 95% of the time lol
lol no it's not fully best. Kinda funny tho.
Basically, go out and try it and see how it goes. Start slow and build up speed. See how it handles and see if it rubs.
Edit! Christ looking at that pic you have miles of room! My tyres touch the arch 95% of the time lol
Show us your arches then?
I rolled the rear ones as putting on the larger wheels, even in town, touching the throttle they were rubbing. When I say rolled I mean I took a shifter and bent them!
That as much lock as i can get, about 80%..lol I was pulling the arches at the time.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/bennh/BBS%20Wheels/Wheelsfittedtwo9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bennh/media/BBS%20Wheels/Wheelsfittedtwo9.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/bennh/Car%20updates%20June%202011%20on/IMAG0344.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bennh/media/Car%20updates%20June%202011%20on/IMAG0344.jpg.html)
Best pics i can do at the mo.
(and i didn't mean to come off rude in the post above if i did)
What poundage do you run on the rear Iain?
As said, can all vary depending on personal preferences. I have an xe in mine. So many people said it would be undriveable etc. lol check my video from combe....
I'm only on 250lb rear coilover springs Pete, not too stiff really but does provoke some oversteer very easily if I want it to
That as much lock as i can get, about 80%..lol I was pulling the arches at the time.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/bennh/BBS%20Wheels/Wheelsfittedtwo9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bennh/media/BBS%20Wheels/Wheelsfittedtwo9.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/bennh/Car%20updates%20June%202011%20on/IMAG0344.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/bennh/media/Car%20updates%20June%202011%20on/IMAG0344.jpg.html)
Best pics i can do at the mo.
(and i didn't mean to come off rude in the post above if i did)
You didn't come off rude at all but I will be here...lol I can only get a forefinger in, tried two but it's too tight so there's not much more gap then yours (told you it would be rude).....see how it goes once I start driving it.
The exhaust clearance is only 2" so i'll need to watch that too.
Mines under 10mm gap..lol and yeah best way is to try it. Then you'll get the feel. You might wanna go up or go stiffer and that..
Worth a go with the new height, but don't forget you'll have massively affected the toe so that'll change how it feels when turning in.
I run 325lb on the front of my XE Nova and it does handle, so I'd try and look at rear spring poundages, anti roll bars, tyres and the geometry up front. A limited slip diff and change of driving style should pull you round corners and eliminate a lot of understeer though?!
Affecting the toe, do you mean I should recheck the tracking or will it just feel different?
I doubt I'll ever reach the financial or skill level of limited slip diff but I will look at the rear anti-roll bar mod using a 2nd cavalier item if ever I find a cavalier ant-roll in the scrappy.
There is probably a lot of truth in the driving style comment....but there was so little grip before with this car (I did come off track twice) I never had the confidence to corner it the same way I did with the 1.4 but hopefully the wheels/tyres and lowering might go a bit towards more grip/confidence.
You need to factor in roll centre when going low, the more the wishbone faces upwards the more the car will understeer and 'lean' on corners regardless of spring rates
Affecting the toe, do you mean I should recheck the tracking or will it just feel different?
I doubt I'll ever reach the financial or skill level of limited slip diff but I will look at the rear anti-roll bar mod using a 2nd cavalier item if ever I find a cavalier ant-roll in the scrappy.
There is probably a lot of truth in the driving style comment....but there was so little grip before with this car (I did come off track twice) I never had the confidence to corner it the same way I did with the 1.4 but hopefully the wheels/tyres and lowering might go a bit towards more grip/confidence.
The driving style comment was with the limited slip diff in mind not your skill/fear level, where you can power on mid corner to pull it out from understeering
Yeah lowering it a fair chunk more will affect the toe, I know we've talked about setting it up before and I think you got it tracked up? If the steering arms are pointing upwards it'll probably have toed out more so might feel quite skittish on the straights and turn into a corner quicker.
I'll check the tracking the frst day it isn't gale force winds and rain! Thanks for bringing that up, I would never have thought to check.
You need to factor in roll centre when going low, the more the wishbone faces upwards the more the car will understeer and 'lean' on corners regardless of spring rates
Confused here....lowering should improve cornering? But if it causes the wishbone to work against me then a bit of a mixed bag?
Thats not true, my XE was overtaking everything at knockhill including marc's nova lol
True Mieran but your car is really well set up, decent tyres and you have the cavalier rear antiroll bar mod...I was just being a gentleman and showing respect by letting you past lol
Confused here....lowering should improve cornering? But if it causes the wishbone to work against me then a bit of a mixed bag?
Only when you get to very low. That's why people say don't lower it tomuch.
Only when you get to very low. That's why people say don't lower it tomuch.Guess I'll find out if it's too low when I drive it?
Confused here....lowering should improve cornering? But if it causes the wishbone to work against me then a bit of a mixed bag?
Yeah but on track/race cars you can get ball joints with longer pin to correct the arm level
Unfortunately no ones makes thense for Novas
I was just being a gentleman and showing respect by letting you past lol
lol
Suppose spacing out the balljoint on a Nova would do similar?
No that would make no difference whatsoever
Yeah but on track/race cars you can get ball joints with longer pin to correct the arm level
Unfortunately no ones makes thense for Novas
so are there other vauxhall models that fit and do the job?
No that would make no difference whatsoever
Itd change the angle of the arm what more are you saying the balljoint spacers achieve?
mk1nova_rich
03-01-14, 06:08 PM
You would have to fit the balljoint on top of the TCA/tie bar but chances are you will need to play about with the camber afterwards
This is all hurting my poor head lol
Took it for a wee drive today with a passeneger to help with more wieght.
It is really stiff but under normalish driving there is no rubbing anywhere.
However, I did take one roundabout slightly fastish and the front slid a bit but came back in control very easily. There are several factors, damp road and the tyres that are on these wheels are Hankooks but barely legal...waiting on new toyos.
Will now have to wait and see I suppose.
Sliding is a whole different world..
Sliding is a whole different world..
Tell me more.
Johnny A
05-01-14, 08:20 PM
Tell me more.
rubber underwear recommended
Well the passeneger side is over 5mm lower than the driver's and every little mark on the road sounds and feels like the strut turret is coming through the car.... I am going to raise it back by 5mm.
Here it is beside the swing, it doesn't look ridiculous but the passeneger side feels like it is sprung mostly by the shockers.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo648-Copy_zps4a7318f3.jpg
Coilovers are harder than std spring and shock.(more so with proper matched springs) You'll just need to get used to it.
Where are you running the rebound on? I have a everyday and then a track setting...
You are right about coilovers and 325lb springs being harder but when I took it out the passenger side wasn't just the usual coilover thudding, the passenger side was knocking through the whole car on every tiny bump, I lowered the passenger side more to compensate for me sitting in it, perhaps I went too far lol.
I got my mate to sit in it yesterday and the driver's height didn't change and the passmeger side was still lower so I reckon they should be set the same hieght.
I have raised it the 5mm so it it's equal to the driver's side which seemed to cope fine, testing at the weekend when my Toyos arrive......
Where are you running the rebound on? I have a everyday and then a track setting...
Sorry to sound a bit thick here but what do you mean by the rebound?
You normally have a knob to adjust rebound on them, you then have hard correct poundage springs, then you soften the rebound off for a nicer drive.
If it's knocking then you have a prob.
thanks, they are fk coilovers, do you now where adjutment knob would likely be, I'll check it tomorrow in the daylight
FK's its on the top of the piston iirc... There will be a small bit on it you can turn.
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