View Full Version : E10 is damaging older cars
http://bbs.rallyesportescorts.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68838
I had heard this was on the horizon and I was already aware of E5/5% ehanol content being present in most fuels.
10% is destroying cars and it is only going to get worse.
Make sure your car is in good shape and buy fuel that does not contain E10.
As one of the lads on that thread says, it is infuriating that this has all been swept under the rug, with no warnings for owners of older vehicles susceptible to this crap.
fit new fuel lines, make sure the injectors work ok on it, job jobbed...
That isn't good
How do you find out what different stations have for sale tho?
fit new fuel lines, make sure the injectors work ok on it, job jobbed...
It also errodes diaphragms, alloys and brass.
On my RSi for example, it would destroy the fuel accumulator. That means no K-Jetronic.
Edd, there's supposedly lists. BT Ultimate is the best for now iirc.
There's also some form of additives to lessen the damage, but the government haven't allowed them to go on sale (yet).
I generally don't buy into this type of thing, but having read up on E10, imo there is just cause for concern.
time to private import the stuff from america then
time to private import the stuff from america then
You be the supplier then. lol
How do you know what normal ron fuels do or dont contain it, my nova doesnt run right on high ron fuel so i have to use 95!
I have had two fuel hoses fail this year though!
I think all 95 ron does? Maybe some supermarkets haven't added it yet.
Google to see where is best to buy, mate. When the fuel hoses failed, did they 'rot' through?
It's planned to.increase to 20% content in the future.
chrisd1986
26-09-13, 10:27 PM
Just put newer engines in then, I know everyone loves a xe nova but a 2.0 ecotec nova is still quick and alot cheeper to buy the engine and loom
Novasport
26-09-13, 10:34 PM
Engine bay extiguishers are looking all the more attractive!
chrisd1986
26-09-13, 10:40 PM
Engine bay extiguishers are looking all the more attractive!
Shame the price dosnt
Just put newer engines in then, I know everyone loves a xe nova but a 2.0 ecotec nova is still quick and alot cheeper to buy the engine and loom
What makes you think an Ecotec engine is 'new'?
The current VXR range is probably not future-proofed for this.
Novasport, fair point!
chrisd1986
26-09-13, 10:42 PM
What makes you think an Ecotec engine is 'new'?
The current VXR range is probably not future-proofed for this.
Its newer than what most people are putting in older vauxhalls is what I ment
If I read this stuff right, this newer fuel runs leaner and the mixture in a car needs to be richer. A modern car will automatically do this so it means less mpg. So less efficient fuel? Really?
I have tried super fuels but they don't run so well.
What actual damage will this realisticaly do to a Nova or Mini?
Its newer than what most people are putting in older vauxhalls is what I ment
A little. Still nowhere near new enough though.
It's a problem that will affect almost every car on the road today, imo.
chrisd1986
26-09-13, 10:47 PM
Probably eat away at the metals inside the engine and wear the internal components its comes to contact with quicker than normal
chrisd1986
26-09-13, 10:49 PM
A little. Still nowhere near new enough though.
It's a problem that will affect almost every car on the road today, imo.
Just means that its another way to sting the motorist in the wallet as usual
What actual damage will this realisticaly do to a Nova or Mini?
Basically, it eats components.
Just means that its another way to sting the motorist in the wallet as usual
Aye. Forces old cars off the road and forces people to buy new cars, for the good* of the environment and 'our' car industry.
Total bollocks.
I think all 95 ron does? Maybe some supermarkets haven't added it yet.
Google to see where is best to buy, mate. When the fuel hoses failed, did they 'rot' through?
It's planned to.increase to 20% content in the future.
Yep, they just softened up and perished, the first one wasnt a braided fuel hose but it just crumbled in my hands!!
Basically, it eats components.
So why is it happening and why is it legal?
Novasport
26-09-13, 10:53 PM
From what I see it damages anything that is not plastic, ie fuel tank, fuel level sender, fuel hoses, carburettors, injection systems inc injectors, FPR's, vacuum units etc
ecotecs are far from modern.20years old now
So how long and who's cars have been damaged?
Yep, they just softened up and perished, the first one wasnt a braided fuel hose but it just crumbled in my hands!!
Doesn't sound good!
I have noticed a lot of fuel hose seems to be of inferior quality now, as with most other components.
The combination isn't a great one.
So how long and who's cars have been damaged?
How long what?
The ethanol content was 5%. It's now mostly 10% and is set on double again.
As for who's cars, yours. Now.
Read up on it. This will cause havoc in the near future.
From what I see it damages anything that is not plastic, ie fuel tank, fuel level sender, fuel hoses, carburettors, injection systems inc injectors, FPR's, vacuum units etc
Yeah, that appears to be the bottom line.
It doesn't leave many components in an older car. I always thought plastic fuel tanks, filler necks, pioes etc were great.
Maybe not, as they seem to be the start of everything being made of the stuff.
Anyone remember when cars were made of metal?!
How will carbs run in the future?
So why are they doing it? There has been no serious public awareness that petrol will contain 20% Ethanol.
So why are they doing it? There has been no serious public awareness that petrol will contain 20% Ethanol.
Enivornmental reasons, supposedly. There has been no public awareness bulletins etc because cars are seen as white goods.
The vast majority of the population don't expect one to last nor intend to keep one for more than say five years.
So it will only affect those of us that choose to run older cars.
Google it if you are interested, mate. All of the relevant information is out there.
millworm
26-09-13, 11:33 PM
Can't believe this, could be the reason I keep finding rust in my fuel filters? going through them like nobody's business. absolute joke that they can get away with it tbh.
Better make sure my insurance policy covers fire lol,
Anyone remember the same stories when we went from 4star to unleaded?
Oh it will eat your valves and munch through your cylinder head on old cars
8valve-craig
27-09-13, 09:10 AM
I cant really see it being a big issue. Scares like this come and go.
Run some Teflon lines, plumb in an extinguisher and carry a handheld is all you can really do.
BRoadGhost
27-09-13, 10:19 AM
Whichever minister[s] agreed to this EU legislation can fcuk right off.
I wondered why my fuel filter has started leaking into the engine bay.
craig green
27-09-13, 10:41 PM
At the end of the day, the government don't really want us on the roads. They are pricing us off anyways & legislations dictate we have to bring down pollution levels. It's all part of the 'big plan'.
so this is why my cav runs lean lol lol and killed a fuel pump n cant keep pressure up lol lol
Jon_nova1
28-09-13, 10:19 AM
Surely if you keep evidence of where you bought fuels then there would be a case of damages when their product damages your car?
Novasport
28-09-13, 11:52 AM
That is fine but it is proving it caused any damage is the difficult bit.
BRoadGhost
28-09-13, 08:32 PM
Jon has a point; if you did keep fuel receipts & photographic evidence of damage occurring over time I think you would have a case.
The government DOES want people on the road, paying duty on fuels. It's all priced exactly right to keep profits & revenue at a maximum, but this time lives are being directly put at risk (of fire) and a petition needs to be started.
Novasport
28-09-13, 09:07 PM
Interesting...
http://www.cavalierandchevetteclub.co.uk/new_page_17.htm
Novasport
28-09-13, 09:15 PM
The hose seller they mentioned...
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Venair-Silicone-Hose-World?_rdc=1
I know we are not supposed to put up eBay links but I think this one is worth while
Good find Rich
Think I will change the lines on mine
Novasport
28-09-13, 09:35 PM
I think the use of ethanol resistant hose, a fuel tank sealer(See link below) and some fuel additive(See second link) will help along with a fire extiguisher to hand lol
http://www.rust.co.uk/products/product/413135/0003-slosh-ethanol-resistant-tank-seal-kit/
http://www.frost.co.uk/ethomix-additive.html
Novasport
28-09-13, 09:36 PM
Good find Rich
Think I will change the lines on mine
Problem is the 'S' hoses on carb tanks, they kink if you use normal unshaped hoses
Good work rich. I still think it is a disgrace that the government are putting in place measures that can potentially destroy a multitude of classic cars. It funkin stinks!
Problem is the 'S' hoses on carb tanks, they kink if you use normal unshaped hoses
Re route them?
I haven't used any on mine, spi tank tho
So does E10 eat copper piping as well then?
Novasport
28-09-13, 09:43 PM
Need to find out which fuels contain it. From what I read it seems super unleaded is least likely to contain Ethanol but there is still a risk of it having it.
I run the Sport on V-Power normally but the other two use normal unleaded.
I think we need to be better educated on this otherwise we have ticking time bombs on our hands, I have three!
Novasport
28-09-13, 09:44 PM
Re route them?
I haven't used any on mine, spi tank tho
So does E10 eat copper piping as well then?
Metal, plastic, rubber & fibreglass. Basically we're fcuked lol
Novasport
28-09-13, 09:55 PM
Protect Your Vehicle Against Harmful Impact of Ethanol Blended Petrol
If you use petrol for your family car, classic car, boat, motorcycle, Quad, lawnmower, strimmer, rotavator, chainsaw, generator, pump or any other type of equipment that has a petrol engine, you need to know about Ethanol in your fuel.
What is Ethanol?
Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colourless liquid. Best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages, it is also used in thermometers, as a solvent and as an alcohol fuel. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol or spirits.
Where does it come from?
Ethanol is sustainable and domestically produced from renewable resources such as corn, grains and potatoes.
Why add Ethanol to Petrol?
Ethanol is good for our agricultural economy and helps us reduce our dependency on foreign petroleum products. On the “green” side they are aimed at improving air quality and reducing air pollution from fuel emissions.
What proportion of the fuel is Ethanol?
Permitted ethanol content in petrol is 5% which is to rise to 10% in 2013. However we are led to believe supermarket fuels may already have as much as 10% ethanol blended in. We hear a 15% mix is on its way in the USA.
While this is good for the domestic farmer and our environment, Ethanol can cause serious problems to your engine and fuel system. Generally vehicles built after 1996 have been designed with Biofuels in mind, but earlier cars and engines with carburettors are going to need help. What types of problems have been encountered?
1) Water accumulation in the fuel tank - ethanol absorbs water from the air. The water condenses in the fuel tank and will pull the ethanol out of suspension with the petrol. This is bad news because it strips the octane out of the petrol, leaving you with a layer of octane-poor fuel on top and a water-ethanol layer mixture on the bottom. If this gets sucked into the combustion chamber, you will have poor starting and very rough running with potentially engine damage.
2) Deposit is like to build up - Ethanol when mixed with water readily forms Gums in the fuel system much quicker than fuel without Ethanol. These Gums coat fuel system components including filters, carburettors, injectors, throttle plates and will then form varnish and carbon deposits in the intake, on valves, and in the combustion chamber.
3) Lower fuel mileage, Decreased performance and acceleration. Ethanol contains less chemical energy than petrol does, and this means less mileage for the driver. 3-5% drops in mileage are expected.
4) Corrosion of internal engine components - Water contamination may cause fuel system corrosion and severe deterioration.
5) Contaminants in fuel system – water, degraded rubber, plastic, fibreglass and rust may get drawn in.
6) It could encourage microbial growth in fuel. Ethanol being organic and hygroscopic may allow the growth of fungus.
7) Short shelf life - as short as 90 days
8) Corrodes plastic and rubber - Ethanol is a strong, aggressive solvent and will cause problems with rubber hoses, o-rings, seals, and gaskets. These problems are worse during extended storage when significant deterioration could take place. Hoses may delaminate, o-rings soften and break down, and fuel system components made from certain types of plastics could either soften or become hard and brittle, eventually failing. Fuel system components made from brass, copper, and aluminium may oxidize. The dissolved plastics and resins now in the fuel could end up in blocked fuel filters or gummy deposits.
9) Melts Fibreglass - bikes and boats with fibreglass fuel tanks can have structural failure as the Ethanol will break down and pick-up some of the materials the tanks are made from. Again this material, dissolved from the tank, can be carried through the fuel system and can cause damage to carburettors, fuel injectors and can actually get into the combustion chambers.
lol probably
After more reading it seems it's a EU idea which could possibly make petrol prices rise even further, sack off the mongs in Brussels
Novasport
28-09-13, 10:19 PM
Other additives
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-1535-lead-replacement-other-additives.aspx
So with the additives in the fuel are stuff like hoses still going to have to be replaced?
By the look of this yeah. Additives are stabilisers to help prevent moisture building, and try coat metals like barriers. Carbs are going to suffer badly. I hope webcon/webber develop silicone mounting rings for 40's and develop some sort of new fuel filtration system as this stuff is going to wreak havoc. I'm seriously pissed about this sh.i.t! I've just spent an absolute fortune on my samba, only to find that most of the fuel system is going to have to be overhauled in the very near future.
tahir868
29-09-13, 09:45 AM
Great links Rich, I'll be buying most of that, especially as all the fuel system is going to be new on the Calibre!
Royston
29-09-13, 05:13 PM
I need to start looking at this, after 10 years 10k miles trouble free motoring in Rover Vitesse V8 has started to play up, it appears to be dirt being drawn from the fuel tank at blocking the inline fuel pump gauze.
I removed the pump yesterday and back flushed it many times removing a load of dirt.
I removed the fuel sender to have a look in the tank, it looked OK and the primary gauze in the tank looked OK (it was submerged in petrol) the dirt must be getting through this.
It was only the other night I considered the fuel changes, i.e. ethonal
All of a sudden I have lost confidence in a car I have and would drive anywhere!:cry::mad:
I spoke with a mate who trained as an industrial chemist but does not now work in the fuel industry.
He did say these are just his opinions in a quick discussion, it would be assumed the experts would have actually discussed this and conducted research.
He thinks that the reasons for doing this is basically it is diluting petrol with something far cheaper to manufacture. He reckons there will be quite a chnage with E10 and a massive differencewith E20 in performance and consumption in any petrol car, regardless of age. Therefore paying the same prices for inferior fuel.
As for older cars, whether you are buying ron95 or ron 97, with even 5% ethanol it will not be ron 95/97 so therefore you are not buying what is advertised or what your car is designed for. With 20% it has to be considered at least a partial biofuel and ought to be advertised as such......anyone legal here?
Damage, in his opinion, it will pull all dirt etc through as it is a solvent. He doubts it will damage brass jets etc, in long term use, it may keep them cleaner? He also thinks that if the rubber seals etc are in good order, it shouldn't cause damage however..........
With the different combustion qualities, carbourettors may need to be re jetted to give a richer mixture throughpout the whole driving range, not just idle. There may be problems with run on (whether ignition timings can be advanced slightly or not to cure this will have to be seen). Injection cars shouldn't need any alterations?
However he also said that long term running on mixed fuel types may cause internal damage after a number of years, with the different combustion qualities, pistons, piston rings, valves, valve seals etc all may or may not be afffected by the different temperatures reached and the smaller amount of combustion. this doesn't concern most people as by the time the car is the age where the problems would arise, most people would buy a new car, so that in the future there would be few cars more than 7 or 8 years old. Now, is that a surprise?
That's a s much as I can rememeber but, he did insist that it was just his opinions and again none of it is proven or researched. It looks as though the drivers of older cars...ie us, may be the researchers.
Personally the last three years I have had a lot of carb issues and I stopped using a well known supermarket where evry bit helps as thier fuel always made my 1.0 pink (not the colour) and run on. probably at least E5, I thought it was just the car was temperamental about who's fuel it liked lol
my cars got insurance, so ill just let the ****er burn to the ground lol
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