View Full Version : has my water pump failed
checking the cambelt on my 1.3 SR which was put on new in April, it was slack so needed tightening. Really struggled to get the water pump to move at all, even with the three bolts removed. Eventually got it all done etc. Now it's all back together but it is making a hum/squeal noise and is leaking water...I assume the water pump has packed up with being moved?
Great...... belt and everything off again, this car doesn't want to go this year full stop.
depends where it is leaking from. If it the side of the housing then u will nee to clean up the rust and crap and see if that helps, and check the o ring isnt nicked . If it is out the output shaft on the pump then its a new pump job.
meritlover
08-09-13, 04:49 PM
it might be. as said, the o-ring might have just been disturbed. new pumps are so cheap, if you're taking the old one off to fault find, its easier just to replace it at the same time.
Thanks, the oring does make sense but before I open it all up and have no car on the road, I'll just buy a new pump, handy as a spare anyway.
I assume the water leakage is causing the noise?
conza123
08-09-13, 06:34 PM
Thanks, the oring does make sense but before I open it all up and have no car on the road, I'll just buy a new pump, handy as a spare anyway.
I assume the water leakage is causing the noise?
its always good practice to change pump when doing cambelt, the amount of modern cars ive retensioned a new cambelt on old water pump and it leaks a couple of weeks later
meritlover
08-09-13, 06:35 PM
wouldnt have thought so, normally the bearing collapses which causes the shaft to run off true and wreck the seal very quickly.
When you take the pump out, clean the scale and rust out the hole and clean up the 3x M6 mounting holes. then grease the oring with silicone grease or similar.
just how tight did you make your belt?
I made the belt pretty tight, using a tape measure being able to move it just over halfa centimeter, as haynes says.
I have to drive it about 40 miles tomorrow but hopefully will get a water pump and attempt fitting it in tthe evening, so long as it takes me to work and back (I will be takking a bottle of water incase lol)
BRoadGhost
08-09-13, 07:04 PM
At least you don't have to drop the engine out to change the water pump.
Stop whining
Great...... belt and everything off again, this car doesn't want to go this year full stop.
Its a 10min job???
/\ agreed, especially as the old pump has been moved. its when they are seized solid & you have to thrape merry fook out of them with a large iron bar from the back that takes the time....
maybe we should start a thread about things that need swapping as a matter of course... like oil cooler flat rings on xe sandwich plates, as they are a major cause of oil leaks. etc....
ah one sec mowgli.I have just the pics for this thread..
here we go...Seized solid.Had to smash it out with a hammer and bolster! Took over an hour to remove,and that was the engine OUT lol
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/andyspics_album/DSC00169.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/andyspics_album/media/DSC00169.jpg.html)
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/andyspics_album/DSC00168.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/andyspics_album/media/DSC00168.jpg.html)
well that is exactly what happened, the old one wouldn't move to tighten the belt.
Although it is said above that for some folk taking the belt and old pump off etc and putting new on, with my skills it will take the whole evening, garunteed lol
All being well should have it sorted by tomorrow night, then just the other problems this car has...................................
andy i feel your pain... i had it happen on an astra 1.7d when trying to change the cambelt.... and i snapped one of the 3 bolts for good measure... oh, & it was in the street outside my house for good measure..
Those sh1tty little allen key bolts are just muck aren't they!!
i think ikea use higher quality ones lol
The part number is the same for a "wardrobe-light oak, hinge fixing" apparently............
ah one sec mowgli.i have just the pics for this thread..
Here we go...seized solid.had to smash it out with a hammer and bolster! Took over an hour to remove,and that was the engine out lol
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/andyspics_album/dsc00169.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/andyspics_album/media/dsc00169.jpg.html)
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/andyspics_album/dsc00168.jpg (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/andyspics_album/media/dsc00168.jpg.html)
wow
Went to get a water pump from the factors today, should have guessed, none, two weeks to wait and £33, no fuel pump and so on.......Novas are just to old it seems.
So ordered one off ebay which says it's for 1.3s and 1.3nb (Iassume that's sb)
Means that for over a week the car will have to be run as it is, still just a bit frustrated.
Does the bottom pulley have to come off for the back plate to move enough for the pump to come in and out, I rememeber when I put the new belt on, I couldn't get the bottom pulley to come off.
jimbob-mcgrew
09-09-13, 02:37 PM
maybe you did the belt up too tight initially, and it caused it to stretch ?
a smoothish 90 degree twist on the belt from (between the cam and waterpump) is good.
I found with mine, if you move the pump within a week or 2, you can get away without them leaking. after a month or so many miles, there more than likely to leak.
No the pulley stays on,slacken ya 3 bolts and remove the pump,clean up the mating face refit,tension,done.Easiest car to do one on.
No the pulley stays on,slacken ya 3 bolts and remove the pump,clean up the mating face refit,tension,done.Easiest car to do one on.
Thanks, I'm sure it is easy compared to most engines..........although I have done it on a 1.0 and it is so much easier, remove water pipe (jubilee clip), altenator belt, four bolts that hold the pump on, clean and refit. I think I realised just how easy the 1.0 is when I went to change a thermostat on a 1.2i.......slightly more complex than remove the jubilee clip/hose, pull out old, push in new, done! Shame the old ohv is so low powered lol. The last time I changed a thermostat on a 1.0 it was in halfords car park.
Changing topic a little, apart from creating hassle and maintanence, why did they use belts on OHC, why not use the same internal chain things (Igather some have gone back to this)?
maybe you did the belt up too tight initially, and it caused it to stretch ?
a smoothish 90 degree twist on the belt from (between the cam and waterpump) is good.
I found with mine, if you move the pump within a week or 2, you can get away without them leaking. after a month or so many miles, there more than likely to leak.
That would explain why mine is leaking, i fitted it in April and never got round to retightening it until yesterday and it had strectched a little. I agree, I should have done it two weeks after fitting.
meritlover
09-09-13, 07:52 PM
Changing topic a little, apart from creating hassle and maintanence, why did they use belts on OHC, why not use the same internal chain things (Igather some have gone back to this)?
because although a chain will 'last' for 80k-100k they rattle after 60 and need major work (generally) to replace, along with followers and tensioner runners. no one has really made one work. In some instances manufacturers have gone back to belts. they're cheaper and quieter.
My 1.0 nova is really high mileage and has never had a new chain, and one mini is about 172K miles, neither have noisey chains but perhaps it is different with higher cc models?
I see what you mean though, replacement of a belt is easier than a chain inside the engine, although I personally found it difficult (due to lack of skill) I did manage to put on a belt on a twin cam (xe) myself, would never attempt a chain even on the 1.0 or mini.
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:11 PM
My 1.0 nova is really high mileage and has never had a new chain, and one mini is about 172K miles, neither have noisey chains but perhaps it is different with higher cc models?
I see what you mean though, replacement of a belt is easier than a chain inside the engine, although I personally found it difficult (due to lack of skill) I did manage to put on a belt on a twin cam (xe) myself, would never attempt a chain even on the 1.0 or mini.
that's because its an OHV and the cam is about 4" away from the crank drive. an OHC engine is about 20" between sprockets, plus the extra distance needed for a DOHC, and the extra width required due to the increased load of driving twice as many valves....it all gets complicated and noisy very quickly.
that's because its an OHV and the cam is about 4" away from the crank drive. an OHC engine is about 20" between sprockets, plus the extra distance needed for a DOHC, and the extra width required due to the increased load of driving twice as many valves....it all gets complicated and noisy very quickly.
That all makes perfect sense...I am learning with your patience.
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:30 PM
That all makes perfect sense...I am learning with your patience.
...together, we will embrace modern technology and move on from primitive OHV engines.
...together, we will embrace modern technology and move on from primitive OHV engines.
Don't knock the ohvs, they are fun too, light and well do I need to mention 1275 mini coopers lol
On a sightly more serious note, the A series 1275 as standard gave out 72bhp compared to the SR 70bhp but even as a teenager, no-one ever spoke of how fast a MG metro went, it was SRs or even (I'll get sgot for this....early 80s, a ,ot of people liked) XR3s.
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:41 PM
3 bearing cranks, over and under+shared ports, points and condenser, single barrel carb. they shared a lot of similarities with the A-series....
...which is why they binned it and invented the OHC Isuzu designed Family engine
My main critcism of ohv engines has always been lack of torque and now driving an xe, I can't see any sort of ohv giving that sort of power and revving freely. But for everyday driving and a little fun I do love my wee ohvs too (Nova and minis).
The engine I'll never understand apart from emissions was the 1.2i, slow and just boring.
Don't knock the ohvs, they are fun too, light and well do I need to mention 1275 mini coopers lol
On a sightly more serious note, the A series 1275 as standard gave out 72bhp compared to the SR 70bhp but even as a teenager, no-one ever spoke of how fast a MG metro went, it was SRs or even (I'll get sgot for this....early 80s, a ,ot of people liked) XR3s.
72hp..... and i still screwed one over in a straight race with my 1.2 ohc nova merit..
the mini & metro were ok, but simply outclassed by all the later designed hatches..
the classic mini is a triumph of serious tuning & development over a truly crap engine & gearbox layout.. it was a game changer in '59, but by 1983, when the nova was launched, was a joke, all these dodgy limited editions & no decent performance versions. they are bumpy & noisy, and have some reliability issues that really should have been sorted out by early 1960.... but yes they are fun to bomb round in..
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:51 PM
agreed, the 1.2i was awful...as was the 1.4spi
gutless engines. but so reliable and simple.
Agreed, rover specials etc were just for sales and the mini originally was supposed to have a new type engine but as with everything BMC it was done on the cheap and they refused it, how issigonis got away with the suspension and other developments.....but the company would not budge on existing engine.
By the late 60s the mini was showing it's age and was very outclassed but, for a small engined fun car, and a car when legal driving feels like the edge, there is no other, and I think that even today, the handling is still amazing, I have never gotten one to leave the road, including missing a turning at nearly60mph.....no brakes, throttle off and threw it round the corner screeching, I still rememebr the look onn the other road users. Of course I now old and sensible.
As for modern comfort and practicality....nothing needs said lol But i still love Minis
meritlover
09-09-13, 11:09 PM
the bottom line was they had to tune the 'specials' because it was the only engine platform they had.
vauxhall could have made a mildly less horrendous OHV 'SR' variant but never had to bother as instead they went for the OHC which was the best over all engine with enough strength that it could be made from 1.2 to 1.6+ and still be reliable with many similar parts.
by the time rover developed a replacement along the same lines (K-series) it was too little too late. damage was done, theyd lost their audience to the Japs or other makers and the company sunk. they should have done it years before, regardless of whether it was the fault of 'bean counters' or not.
k series is a really good engine.
very under rated.
/\ its a pity that rover had such abyssmal quality control, & pathetic development budgets...oh & apparently really bad tooling in the factory.. cos the k series was designed in the mid 80's & should have been a world beater, but because of politics & the threat of ford buying ARG just for the k series(apparently a true story) the engineers hid all traces of it in their garden sheds & after a while, ford got tired of looking & went away...
the k series has since been upgraded by landrover & is not bad at all....
kia invested a lot of millions & bought the rights to use the K series v6 in their people carriers & were not impressed with what they got & had to spend big to sort it..
personally, i think the moggie minor was also a great handling vehicle, as was the austin a35/a40, & the midget which was based on the A35 anyway....
but the world moved on.
the mini with a 3 pot k series, which was planned & a nice little 5 speed box, would have been quite good, the metro really needed converting to spring suspension, but they soldiered on with hydrolastic!!!!! water with green dye.. woo hoo... makes you wonder why nobody else used it.....
personally, i think issigonis designed quirky things because nobody was brave enough to tell him to sod off... he had final engineering say for far too long, and also i think nationalisation was the worst thing to happen to bl.. the higher management knew they would never actually have to compete properly on a commercial basis, so they didn't bother
OH, and legend has it that the 6r4 program was done cos they were worried honda would sod off with the v6 from the large rovers they were planning & needed a backup, but they couldn't get the funding for a production engine, so they came up with the rally car program as a cover to make a 2.5, then finally 3.0 v6 & in the end, honda stayed on board..
meritlover
10-09-13, 07:41 PM
it wasnt dye. it was anti-freeze/glycol
the K-series is a technically brilliant, but terribly executed engine. The VVC is 10x more impressive than the V-Tec because it controlled duration AND lift.
ML, i worked with a bloke who had worked for rover back in the 80s/90s & he actually had some of the dye granules & he used to make his own fluid up, as he had a sideline pumping up peoples cars... it wasn't anything as clever as antifreeze
meritlover
10-09-13, 08:03 PM
so why did it taste like anti-freeze, and why did it not freeze up in winter? or was the only fluid which froze up the stuff from some old dodgy BL guy used to sell as 'genuine' by mixing food colour and water?
The system replaces the separate springs and dampers of a conventional suspension system with integrated, space efficient, fluid filled, displacer units, which are interconnected between the front and rear wheels on each side of the vehicle. The official recipe for genuine BMC/MG Rover fluid is as follows:
49% alcohol
49% distilled water
1% triethanolamine phosphate
1% sodium mercaptobenzothiazole
meritlover
10-09-13, 08:05 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolastic
ah well.... if a former rover employee was prepared to do such a bodge on cars, it does explain why all those metros kept going wrong........
the green die did make a right mess of a certain fountain one night though..... lol lol
meritlover
10-09-13, 09:13 PM
lol
BL had an ohc unit in the 70s for the maxi and allegro (Italian for lively/fast, great sense of irony), E series and later O series, based on the Bseries (an enlarged A series). I have never driven one but apparently the oil pumps rarely lasted more than 30K again, BMC/BL quality.
The Kseries had a reputation for head gasket failure at 40K but as far as I am aware, if you fit a sport gasket, end of troubles. Rover were aware of this for years but never bothered, I assume they hoped that they would make money from the repairs rather than loose buyers from rubbish quality. You would think after decades of loosing cutomers due to poor quality they would have learnt a lesson...........strange how the company doesn't exist? lol
Issigonis did a fantastic job of engineering, styling and packaging with the minor (although the original side vavle engine is asthmatic at best) and the mini. Whether you like it or not, there is no doubt the mini is fun and it's longevity speaks volumes, perhaps because BL (and all the other names) never seriously invested in 40 years the mini still was still basically the same. However, because of these two successes, he used designs for small cars for big cars, landcrab etc which were truly awful.
Hydrolastic......well it is comfortable, they did have rally success with the handling but reliability again a serious issue, on normal tyres the rubber units are not that bad.
Anyway, there is more BMC boredom for you, a long way from my water pump lol
meritlover
10-09-13, 09:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tb-ucz_Fpg&feature=share&list=PL2C4D8EA758BDD6D4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3b6hVOrFg&feature=share&list=PL2C4D8EA758BDD6D4
K-series p0rn.
the head gasket made from sprung steel and elastomer wasnt a cheaper option because it took a lot of development. its just a shame the 'bean counters' wouldnt let them have a selection of liners to get the height right for even clamping on the firing ring...which lead to 'HGF'
the conventional gasket which was used later dealt with this to some extent but there was still not an even clamping force and the bolts were not capable of applying enough clamping force.
most k-series head gaskets fail for a second time because the head gets cooked and 'annealed' so its now softer and erodes around the firing ring face. skimming doesnt help this either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tb-ucz_Fpg&feature=share&list=PL2C4D8EA758BDD6D4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3b6hVOrFg&feature=share&list=PL2C4D8EA758BDD6D4
K-series p0rn.
the head gasket made from sprung steel and elastomer wasnt a cheaper option because it took a lot of development. its just a shame the 'bean counters' wouldnt let them have a selection of liners to get the height right for even clamping on the firing ring...which lead to 'HGF'
the conventional gasket which was used later dealt with this to some extent but there was still not an even clamping force and the bolts were not capable of applying enough clamping force.
most k-series head gaskets fail for a second time because the head gets cooked and 'annealed' so its now softer and erodes around the firing ring face. skimming doesnt help this either.
so in other words...it's rubbish unless you like putting head gaskets on frequently?
not really, its a combination of factors, like the original design used a tiny amount of coolant, & the wrong grade of aluminium was used for the application, so if it goes wrong, you are screwed.
meritlover
10-09-13, 10:36 PM
once you cook a head and it goes bellow Birnell 75 or more its toast. doesnt matter how flat you get it, the firing ring in the gasket becomes harder than the head face and it chews rather than seals.
You could strip it to a bare casting and heat-treat. but youd be in insane. Just junk it and get another one.
some owners were lucky enough to have a car which had a combination of liners that were suitable and often never had issues.
as said, the water route was wrong, water pump inefficient, bleed hoses wrong orientation, header tank caps leaked and ran empty.... and that was just the head. The crank suffers chronic resonance which results in performance engines shearing cranks, VVC was noisy, poor miss fires and idle control, plastic manifolds split and leaked...
there was a mod which would solve most of the cooling issues issued by Rover, however it resulted in worse heater performance. Car dealers were up in arms because the argues that it would be more difficult to sell 'Mrs Smith' a car with a poor heater than one with a good heater and head gasket issues and the mod wasnt rolled out...so short sited.
it was a series of cut corners and blunders which ruined an otherwise 'on-paper' technically excellent engine.
when China bought MG they also heavily modified the K-series with reportedly good results. there were issues with either Euro 3 or Euro 4 emissions as well which caused them some issues. I forget now.
the ones that ran, ran well.
So have we established if we have water pump failure?? lol
meritlover
10-09-13, 10:45 PM
I dont think so. Too busy reminiscing of technology dating back to 1942 and spitfire engine derived BL iron-boat-anchors and suspension technology even Citroen and Rolls Royce have moved on from. lol
There is a little water continually leaking and it's sitting on the belts which is causing squeeling so either the seal has gone or it is failing. I am waiting on a new one coming home before opening it all up.
So have we established if we have water pump failure?? lol
its a gm water pump..
its leaking
thus its shagged.... that's why we moved onto complaining about rovers
meritlover
10-09-13, 11:03 PM
at least we are all still very good friends. :-)
Of course, and a bit mmore entertaining than, "has my pump failed"....YES.
And for me, now I understand why we have cambelts, to turn the cam lol
Fitted pump etc today but it still squeels like a slipping fanbelt, I thought I'd dried all the water but perhaps there is still a wee drop?
Are these fanbelts one direction only? I thought I'd put it on the same way.
If I have put it on the worng way, it's only done 100 miles since it started squeeling, do I need another new belt or will this one be ok?
I dont think it matters what way you put the belt on. It might be the bearing in the altenator thats making the noise?
belts are not directional. it could be either too loose, or too tight, or the alternator bearings are on the way out
Thanks, I have adjusted the belt as it says in Haynes, that it can be moved by 0.6mm, but perhaps this is just a little too tight?
If it is the altenator (I'll loosen the belt tomorrow so the altenattor is disengaged etc) that's so many compnonents in 5 months running, 91K must be a dismal number!!
meritlover
17-09-13, 04:54 PM
compnonents in 5 months running, 91K must be a dismal number!!
...yes, but once their all changed you will have another 91k until things start failing again. its a simple bathtub curve
It was the belt tension that was too tight, will this belt still be ok having been run too tight?
I had to slacken it a fair bit to stop the noise, Haynes says with thumb pressure there should be .6cm but now there is 1 cm of pressure movement, unless haynes means light thumb pressure lol.
Anyway, sorted now and thanks guys for help and advice as always. (as well as discussions lol)
Fitted pump etc today but it still squeels like a slipping fanbelt, I thought I'd dried all the water but perhaps there is still a wee drop?
Are these fanbelts one direction only? I thought I'd put it on the same way.
If I have put it on the worng way, it's only done 100 miles since it started squeeling, do I need another new belt or will this one be ok?
I meant are the cam belts directional, appauling typing lol
jimbob-mcgrew
18-09-13, 12:22 AM
yeah, they make a bit of a racket when done up too tight. too much strain on the waterpump bearings I think.
they don't need much. just a mild hand tightness on the pump I find good.
are the cam belts directional
ive seen some belts with arrows on before, but I doubt it matters which way they go, as the shape of the belt teeth are same both ways.
I normally fit them with the writing facing outward, towards the wing.
ive pulled the cover off a few to find them fitted the other way round tho, and they looked visually fine.
Thanks, at least I have done that right lol but, will the belt be ok having done 100 miles or so to tight? Will that have caused damage or is that he job finished at last?
jimbob-mcgrew
18-09-13, 09:00 PM
i think it'll be allright. I did 200 or more on a tight belt that was noisy before slackening it off, and didn't have any probs with it afterwards
Thanks, most dramatic cambelt check ever lol
Now I can relax and start looking at the other issues
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