View Full Version : xe starting issues
My xe started and ran a few miles today, then sat for 30 minutes or so and wouldn't start at all. I turned it over and over, checked connections etc. Left it for 30 minutes whilst went to my mates to get his car to jump start it. Still nothing.
Decided to tow it home, whilst close to home tried tow starting, it eventually went but was very poor and wouldn't rev. After about 5 mins the idle went down to normal (was about 2K at first) and it started revving fine. Drove it into the drive, switched it off and restarted-no pproblems.
Yesterday was very heavy rain here so is it dampness perhaps in the spark plug bits, today running for a few miles the heat of the engine moves the water higher therefore shorting out the leads....a cure being a can of dampstart tomorrow-or...
is there another reason? The high idle once it initially started going?
Any help would be appreciated, I thought I was past breakdowns lol
meritlover
26-08-13, 08:50 AM
is there definitely fuel in it?
does it miss-fire when it does run?
does it run on all cylinders?
It runs perfectly now but yesterday when it refused to start then did start it wouldn't run on 4 cy;inders for a few minutes, then it all kicked in.
I cleaned under the spark plug cover today and sprayed damp start over the leads etc, I don't know if dampness bothers these engines being more modern than what i am usually used to.
Check the ignition amplifier mate, mine had a faulty one and it did the same.
Check the ignition amplifier mate, mine had a faulty one and it did the same.
Thanks, that's a foreign language lol. I assume it amplifies the ignition by the name, where is the amplifier?
Google images mate, c20xe ignition amplifier .
It's just a small sensor on a long bit of loom over towards the passenger side of the bay.
David.
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?160951-c20xe-ignition-amplifier
Here's one
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?160951-c20xe-ignition-amplifier
Here's one
Thanks, your a wizzkid with thechnology, I'm still working with contact breakers lol! I know the thing after your link, i had one go on a 1.2i which sat under the coil, I'll get one just incase it competely gives up.
I spent weeks trying to find out what was up with mine mate, replaced 2 coilpacks, 3 crank sensors, and a nock sensor before the ignition sensor
are these unique to the xe or can i nab a spare of a car in the scrap yard? Tried looking on bay but couldn't find one.
The car started first time today, drove 30 miles no bother, on my way home I did a few stops, bandq etc, on one the car wouldn't start, just turned.I just turned and turned with the throttle down, eventually it went but it was struggling and was idling at about 2500rpm, but when you pressed the throttle it almost stalled, not enough power to actually drive. After a few minutes the idle fell down to normal and it drove normally again, and restarted.
Is this the same as what yours did? It just seemed as though it was trying to start with a bad throttle or mixture, almost as if flooding?
BRoadGhost
01-09-13, 10:27 AM
TBH these symptoms are pretty much exactly what I had a few years back; it got so bad the thing would just cut out mid revs too. I thought it was the ignition amp, but that was only being damaged from the root cause.
I'd bent a couple of conrods; enough to upset the ignition timing to overload / heat new ignition amplifiers killing them in a matter of miles.
Took the engine apart, uprated with new rods, bought a larger type ignition amplifier (I'm on carbs) and rebuilt with ARP head bolts. Engine never misses a beat, runs cooler & reliability is back.
I see what you are sayiing but surely if I had bent conrods there would be more timing issues than an occasional refusal to start? Once going it drives absolutely perfect right through the whole range to 7000rpm with the same power as always. can an injection car with ecu get timing issues?
BRoadGhost
01-09-13, 11:07 AM
The reality is you could have 1 or 2 rods bent by different amounts. You might think you'd have more issues, but I didn't. Like yourself when it runs it seems fine & will pull throughout rev range.
ECU & Injection makes no odds; if the piston is further / less of the way round in one of the cylinders than (in your instance) the crank sensor is saying it is, then you can't expect everything to behave as it should.
http://e.pictureupload.us/102329852522311c0a6d3e.jpg
Thanks, I understand what you mean. From when I bought it there would be the occasional time it would start on 3 cylinders but after a minute of idling would settle down to normal, looks like I bought a lemon.
This is a job I can't do myself so I'll phone around for quites from garages but I expect it would be cheaper puting in another engine.........oh how I miss the reliability and slowness of the 1400 track Nova lol
BRoadGhost
02-09-13, 12:42 PM
Well it's not as if you need to drop the engine out to potentially fix it; weather's still alright you could take the head off, sump & take the rods & pistons out to take a look.
You'll tell if they're all straight just by eye, if everything's fine then put them back with some new piston rings & maybe think about ARP headstuds.
The way I saw it at the time was: If it's not as it should be then it has to be taken apart anyway.
You could do this in a few days relaxed pace & the cost of gaskets / new parts would only be a few hundred; think about it.
It's quite unlikely that it has bent rods - more likely to be a more 'common' xe niggle... can you list what you changed/swapped?
Here's my list in order of likeliness (top is more likely!)
CTS
Dizzy/cap
Fuel relay
Ignition switch
Fuel pump
AFM
ECU
I havent read it through, but what are you 'missing' when it refuses to start? Fuel or spark or both?
If youve tried all them, change your rods lol
BRoadGhost
02-09-13, 06:53 PM
IMO most likely cause is head gasket, but you might be surprised if the engine's seen enough high rpm.
Thanks, I have bought a new ignition module (it's a coil pack ignition) and the next time it refuses to start I will put it on to see if that's it, if it still doesn't start I have a spark plug in the glove box so it will be easy to see if theres a spark. (Iwill of course remove it from the glove box and attach it too alead lol), if there is spark, then I'll need to remove a plug and see if it iis wet..ie fuel.
I don't think it's the head gasket, oil and water are fine and it is only an occasional bad/won't start, today it started first time.
Will, excuse the ignorance.. what is CTS, AFM, where is the fuel relay, and apart from the key, is there another ignition switch?
I assume the fuel pump is woorking as I can hear it when the igntion is switched on.
Coolant temp sensor and Air flow meter... teh CTS is a really common fault - controls the ignition and fuelling based on engine temperature...
And I have no idea where Broadghost is getting these wild diagnoses from (head gasket?!)- but please ignore! lol
Coolant temp sensor and Air flow meter... teh CTS is a really common fault - controls the ignition and fuelling based on engine temperature...
And I have no idea where Broadghost is getting these wild diagnoses from (head gasket?!)- but please ignore! lol
Thanks, the cts shouldn't be causing internittent starting problems should it? would have thought it would be more likely to overfule the car once it's hot, ie like running on choke?
AFM, I assume this lets air in lol would this be sitting on the wrong setting at ignition, therefore why when the car struggles to start, for a minute or so it idles far too high and unevenly?
Is the CTS on the manifold?
Where is the AFM?
meritlover
03-09-13, 03:45 PM
Thanks, the cts shouldn't be causing internittent starting problems should it? would have thought it would be more likely to overfule the car once it's hot, ie like running on choke?
AFM, I assume this lets air in lol would this be sitting on the wrong setting at ignition, therefore why when the car struggles to start, for a minute or so it idles far too high and unevenly?
that is true. Conversly however, it could have failed 'warm'
i posted resistance tables on here before so people could test the operation with a reisitance meter.
the AFM measures the inlet mass of air to the engine and uses it to calculate the required fuel. Normally a hot-wire these days, but the old bosch system on the GTE for example used a flapper arm- the more air, the more it displaced the flapper. its down stream of the air filter.
Today i spent some time on this,
The plugs are a brownish grey colour and look healthy so i assume the mixture is fine.
The AFM (if I was at the right bit) is like a sim card, I didn't wipe it or anything incase I damaged or contaminated it.
I don't know where the CTS is to look at that?
The car started fine, ran for about 30 miles, sat for an hour and then wouldn't start so.....
I changed the ignition module, no difference so it's not that.
I took a spark plug on a lead, turned it over, you could see the spark in broad daylight, so spark is there.
I then tried starting with my foot flat on the accelerator, it started straight away and ran fine......rememebring it gad only been turned a few times before.
Usually when it doesn't start it gets turned over a lot, then once it does go it struggles, could be with all the turning it is flooded?
Any more ideas?
It still could be any of the things I listed. Until you start swapping them, there's no point in keeping asking, when it could be one of those things..?
Have you got the EML wired in?
What is an EML?
I know nothing about injection/ecu cars clearly
"Engine management light"
"Engine management light"
oops lol, no there is no eml wired in as ar as I know.
PM'D You with how to wire in your EML and how to get flash codes, should help you pinpoint the problem mate. Hopefully anyway :thumb:
PM'D You with how to wire in your EML and how to get flash codes, should help you pinpoint the problem mate. Hopefully anyway :thumb:
Yes got it thanks, may take me a few weeks to work up the courage to attempt it but I will! Thanks again.
lee 16v
09-09-13, 09:03 PM
The CTS is about £15 from vauxhall. They sit at the front of the engine on the left hand side where the water pipe goes into the head. Might be worth changing anyway if you plan on keeping the car.
The CTS is about £15 from vauxhall. They sit at the front of the engine on the left hand side where the water pipe goes into the head. Might be worth changing anyway if you plan on keeping the car.
Thanks, I will need to get some spares for the car in time anyway and if they go often seems sensible. At the moment the spares are.......a cambelt and spark plug!
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:06 PM
Thanks, I will need to get some spares for the car in time anyway and if they go often seems sensible. At the moment the spares are.......a cambelt and spark plug!
you never need a 'spare' cambelt, you have 60k miles to think about getting a replacement and if it does snap before that you will need a lot more than a belt.
you never need a 'spare' cambelt, you have 60k miles to think about getting a replacement and if it does snap before that you will need a lot more than a belt.
At that point I would just consider a new car although, if it was the SR or early 1.2, apprently you can get away with it? My dad had a belt go on an Astra (as a trained mechanic he never maintains anything), he got it towed home, shoved another belt on and thought nothing of it, I would have panicked incase I'd damaged it.
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:23 PM
ye. they're non-interference engines. XE is a different beast. not worth the risk on in anycase as there still isnt a lot of clearance.
lee 16v
09-09-13, 10:35 PM
I killed a 1.4 sr when the belt came off, I was in 4th and dropped it down to 3rd then 2nd the 1st trying to get it to just start not knowning why the lights all came up on the dash lol. Put the belt back on the next day and man that span fast when I went to start it hahahaha
I killed a 1.4 sr when the belt came off, I was in 4th and dropped it down to 3rd then 2nd the 1st trying to get it to just start not knowning why the lights all came up on the dash lol. Put the belt back on the next day and man that span fast when I went to start it hahahaha
OOPS, although I think (could be wrong....) the 1400 was diffferent, it was supposed to be in preparation for injection engines? As far as I am aware even the 1.2i will be knackered if the belt goes.
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:46 PM
could be. increased comp would probably mean closer valve to piston clearance.
like i say, there is rarely an excuse for it happening in the first place. easier and more convenient to change it in good time.
lee 16v
09-09-13, 10:52 PM
I was told it was "valve safe" when I done it, maybe banging down the gears is what done it. That will teach me to put a bottom pulley with a worn key back on it.
meritlover
09-09-13, 10:55 PM
That will teach me to put a bottom pulley with a worn key back on it.
erm....yup
EML fitted thanks to advice from kev and the switch to get the codes so, some progress.....
Right, got the EML fitted and the switch to get the codes, ended up with 71 and 61. More advice from kev, air temperature sensor and fuel tank vent sensor. With lots of advice and pics from Kev of what to look for...turns out my engine has neither sensor.
With a lot of patience and typing messages from kev I got them fitted and wired up, the eml light now goes out when the engine starts so looking good. The times it has been awkward to start has been after it has had a bit of a run, then sat for a short while on warm wet days so there may be a chance the air temp sensor may have something to do with it? Fingers crossed!
I'll no doubt find out in the next few weeks if it fails again,
Thanks everyone and especially Kev up to now anyway.
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