View Full Version : info on 16v bottom ends running 8v heads
i'm sure the oval racers do this with 1400 small blocks. what do you reckon to me fitting z18xe bottom end bits into a 1600 block & running an e16se head... will it work??
Worth a try, I would say there would be some high compression though.
You would have to measure cr before doing anything. 16v pistons designed for 16v heads valve clearance etc will have a big change with a 8v head on top.
What's your plan ? A small block 1.8 8v but by using just the z18 pistons etc? You can't use the 18 bottom end with the 8v head
Pm Tom Reid ,i am pretty sure he has done it
the z18xe bottom end is a different shape to the 1600 where it mates to the head.
adam & balley, i'm concerned the compression could be massive, so it will be sheet of perspex & syringe time....
ive just got heaps of e16se & also some 1800 jetronic stuff lying around, and i'd love to do it for the hell of it.. i plan to use a block that is compatible with the x16xel head i have, so if it is a no go, then i will simply build up an 1800 16v on corsa management, so its only going to cost me a head gasket & my own time really...
Just do yourself a favour and stick with 16v. Better all round lol
novahotrod
10-06-13, 10:34 PM
The 1400's blow head gaskets too much compression! But that was with a Kent ast19 cam... Spoke to an engine builder and he swore at me and told me 10thou valve clearance wasn't enough at full lift. Solid head gasket and washers on the plugs showed him
cornish
10-06-13, 10:56 PM
I recently broke an ex Nova tarmac rally car running the setup you say; 1600 16V pistons in an 8V bottom end with E16SE head. Made 154bhp with head work (standard valves though), cam, twin 45's etc... Not sure how accurate the RR figure is but certainly the quickest 1600 8V I have driven.
this will have longer stroke & 200cc more.. than the 1600 bottom end...
i have some larger inlet valves to try, but i think i'll stick to a stock cam ....
Longer stroke not good for high revs though. What's your plan inlet/fuelling wise?
i already have an 1800 jetronic ecu, so that should help for a start, the head will get the bigger valves & the ports tidied up, i also have a bigger afm, the throttle is big enough imho and the e16se inlet manifold is pretty good already, so a bit of matching up, deburring & it should be fine..... i was hoping to keep it on stock e16se stuff as much as poss....i'm not exactly into loud chimneys, so i'm still on the hunt for a better backbox than my stock gte one that doesn't wake the neighbours.
it has a wr box at the moment, so more torque & lower revs should be ok.
i am bidding on some much more fun stuff for if i go with the 16v head though.....
turbojolt
11-06-13, 06:39 PM
I love Frankenstein style engines, DO IT!! and do a proper in depth build thread would make great reading
this will have longer stroke & 200cc more.. than the 1600 bottom end...
Only if you bore out to 80.5mm and use the Z18 pistons,
Only if you bore out to 80.5mm and use the Z18 pistons,
i'm sure the oval racers do this with 1400 small blocks. what do you reckon to me fitting z18xe bottom end bits into a 1600 block & running an e16se head... will it work??
;)
Southie
11-06-13, 08:56 PM
I wanted to do something similar to this when I blew up my first X16xe but never got round too it.
Make as detailed a thread Mike when you get round to this, also use the 8v gte clutch setup.
I'd like to one day though do a big block version with 16v bottom end to 8v top end for a test.
Mike you didn't mention your boring out the 1600 or what 1600 block you'd be using, besides why fcuk about with a 16v block just bore out the E16 and make life simple.
mk1nova_rich
12-06-13, 06:52 AM
Or fit the complete 16v ;)
Mike you didn't mention your boring out the 1600 or what 1600 block you'd be using, besides why fcuk about with a 16v block just bore out the E16 and make life simple.
bazil. as the z18xe is larger bore, a 1600 needs reboring to work, then there is the possibility of removing some block material to make the big ends turn.
if i did the e16se block, then found the 8v head wasn't working too well, i'd have some bother with the lack of bolt holes for a 16v cambelt setup, but a 16v could easily be used with an 8v cambelt setup. also i have a 1600 16v engine about
Personally I'm using the E16 head and injection to keep the standard GSI look under the bonnet as much as possable, if you are not bothered about looks under the hood then if I were you I'd just use the 16v head,
I don't know what parts you have lying around I'm only offering my opinion on what info you have given us in this thread,
For all I know you don't have inlets for your 16v engine etc so that's why you wanted to use the E16 head but again I'm guessing as I don't have the info,
i have about 2 3/4 e16se injection setups, one e16se engine (which i have had since 1991). i have the 1800 crank rods & pistons from joff's wifes old engine, a corsa sport with an x16xe bottom end & an x16xel head, and my home made powerbox on the inlet, but i'm not quite there with how it fits just yet...
i like the e16se look too, but i just want to try it with the 1800 bottom end..the z18xe will probably fit up fine in a nova shell, but the later electronics on it look a nightmare, whereas the x16xe stuff doesn't look too bad, apart from the immobiliser. so if the e18se is a lemon, then the x16xel head will make its way onto it.
people have been running 'zvh' engines in fords for long enough to know that this sort of stuff is possible.
i'm also planning to strip & scrap the corsa once i've extracted all the stuff i need for my future nova projects, and it needs to be got rid of sooner rather than later cos my brother is peed off with storing it.
Been having a chat with a man in the know with the 8vs. Suggests 16xe pistons + arp,s, a good ported head, spring kit, solid lifters, modified stock valves as o/s aren't needed and something along lines of 3/310dur cam 12mm lift.......bearing in mind unless buy a certain spring kit with modified caps, you may need to machine spring seats to get req installed height and check no coilbind. On standard inlet with group A or poss N chip, should see around 145bhp.
that would be fun.
i'm not planning anything other than a std cam at the moment.
the extra stroke of the z18xe crank would make higher compression than the x16xe bottom end, so torque would be higher.
if it works well, i'll probably save up for a decent ecu first, then look at a cam etc.
boomtings1
18-06-13, 09:56 PM
I'm doing this at the moment. x14xe block with z18xe crank rods and pistons. Slow progress as it all seems experimental lol. Up to now the block has been bored out, crank and rods and pistons are in. There isn't any clearance issues with rods hitting the walls as i read somewhere, but the rod bolts look extremely close to the sump baffle plate but don't touch. Next is the oil pump, on the end where the oil pump goes onto the crank, the 14xe is 27 mm and the 18xe is 32 mm. I'm waiting on a new pump atm to see how it all fits together as they look different so might not be able to fit the crank sensor normally. Hope this helps, i can give you an update when the oil pump comes.
Novasport
18-06-13, 10:06 PM
What is you reasoning behind this conversion? Surely with the same bore & stroke you are just going to still get the same CC, maybe slightly less but with mega high compression and/or piston to valve clearance issues if the block is shorter.
If you stuck to the X14XE pistons with Z18XE crank & rods, you would get a small bore long stroke engine that does not like to rev. A large bore, short stroke engine is a better high revving engine from my understanding.
therealnovaboy
19-06-13, 05:31 AM
What is you reasoning behind this conversion? Surely with the same bore & stroke you are just going to still get the same CC, maybe slightly less but with mega high compression and/or piston to valve clearance issues if the block is shorter.
If you stuck to the X14XE pistons with Z18XE crank & rods, you would get a small bore long stroke engine that does not like to rev. A large bore, short stroke engine is a better high revving engine from my understanding.
Unless the x14xe and z18xe block are the same hight and the 18xe has shorter rods.
mowgli, do you know the lengths of the z18xe and 16xe rods, and the gudgeon pin to piston top distance. That way you can work out a rough compression ratio. you might find that the z18xe block is taller and the piston pokes out the top of the 16xe block.
Novasport
19-06-13, 07:36 AM
I think the X18XE1 crank has a longer throw to help increase the CC over an X16XE, the rods are the same length.
To just transplant the X18XE1 crank, rods and pistons into the overbored X14XE block will just give the same results as an X18XE1. I suspect the 14 block will be shorter so there will either be compression or clearance issues, most likely will not run. Boomtings would be better off just using the X18 as the head design is much better. Mowgli is only swapping the block to be able to use an 8v head.
Gazza808
19-06-13, 08:32 AM
if you want to fit a complete z18xe its easy, just get the x18xe1 ecu, loom and throttle body, then its no different to fitting a x16xe bar a few more wires.
all these conversions talked about are ditching the best thing about the z18xe/x18xe1's the head, just compare the inlet ports too the ones in a x16xe.
rods are the same length as x16xe rods, the cranks longer throw, and the pistons have a short compression height to make it a small package.
also lee303's seems to like to rev...
Novasport
19-06-13, 09:52 AM
I agree, this is why I was a bit confused about what Boomtings was doing. If there was a requirement for a CC limit that did not fit with the normal engine sizes that required a different bore/stroke or the use of an 8v head then I would understand.
The X18XE1 is a cracking engine with a good flowing head so chuck it in as is.
therealnovaboy
19-06-13, 02:49 PM
The X18XE1 is a cracking engine with a good flowing head so chuck it in as is.
Thats not really the point, the fun would be the point that an 8v would be competitve with a c20xe (for all they could tell it would be a 1600.) The torque curve of an 8v has different charactoristics than a 16v which may also work to your advantage.
I think without measuring he differences between the block height between a 1600 and 1800 block you cant tell if this will be possible. It might be that the rods are the same length but the gudgeon pin to the piston top height is short enough not to cause too much compression.
Gazza808
19-06-13, 03:23 PM
Thats not really the point, the fun would be the point that an 8v would be competitve with a c20xe (for all they could tell it would be a 1600.) The torque curve of an 8v has different charactoristics than a 16v which may also work to your advantage.
I think without measuring he differences between the block height between a 1600 and 1800 block you cant tell if this will be possible. It might be that the rods are the same length but the gudgeon pin to the piston top height is short enough not to cause too much compression.
the compression height of the piston is if i remember when i measured it the same amount shorter as the crank is longer stroke,
theres actually a thread on mig quite indepth of some one fitting the setup in a x16xe block.
my point for doing this is that i want to do it. with the 1600 block & 1800 mucky bits, after a rebore, it will all fit together. i don't know about the 1400, but i guess its the same length block, simply for manufacturing economies. the oil pump thing has been mentioned to me by a dutch lad who has done this already.
Novasport
19-06-13, 06:22 PM
Thats not really the point, the fun would be the point that an 8v would be competitve with a c20xe (for all they could tell it would be a 1600.) The torque curve of an 8v has different charactoristics than a 16v which may also work to your advantage.
I think without measuring he differences between the block height between a 1600 and 1800 block you cant tell if this will be possible. It might be that the rods are the same length but the gudgeon pin to the piston top height is short enough not to cause too much compression.
It is not the retrofitting the X18XE1 bits into an 8V block for fitment of an 8V head that I was confused about. It was the fitment of the parts into another 16v block, namely the X14XE to use a possibly inferior 16v head.
the intake on the 1400 is quite frightening compared to the 1600 one, which is pretty shocking in its own right.
therealnovaboy
19-06-13, 06:34 PM
I suppose there is only one advantage having an engine that looks like a x14xe and has x14xe stamped on the block but has a displacement of 1800cc :roll:
well, there is that, but if i happened to have a 1400 block lying around & was looking to do something like this to it, i'd use it without hesitation
Novasport
19-06-13, 07:05 PM
I suppose there is only one advantage having an engine that looks like a x14xe and has x14xe stamped on the block but has a displacement of 1800cc :roll:
To cheat in motorsport or insure fraudulently!?!
most scrutineers have bore/stroke gauges these days
boomtings1
19-06-13, 07:35 PM
I have traders insurance. A ported x16 head, reprofiled cams, lexmaul inlet, 4-2-1 mani. So i have all the bits and they will make 140bhp, so with an extra 200 cc will make 160? If i bought a z18 i would be spending over 1k on it to get it to this power. Will also look cool being the engine for the car, and i like messing with engines.
therealnovaboy
19-06-13, 09:00 PM
Boomtings, you are doing it for the right reasons.
I have thought about doing this too as i run in a 1600 to 2000cc class. my 8v has an inlet manifold, cam, throttle bodies, exhaust manifold and management. considering you could do this mod for at a reasonable expence it would be totaly pointless fitting a 16v and then having to get inlet manifold, cam, throttle bodies, exhaust manifold to suit the 16v.
1800 8v is a great idea its just a matter of time before i do it.
therealnovaboy
19-06-13, 09:02 PM
most scrutineers have bore/stroke gauges these days
most scrutineers wouldnt know how to use them.
also lee303's seems to like to rev...
Far from standard though..... lol
Super light rods/pistons/fly/clutch etc.
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