GTE. E16SE tuning help?

[RyanGorman]

Hi all just fitted a e16se in my nova spin, and well... She spins now :). I know its probably been covered loads of time I would just like to know where to start with tuning it. I know these engines aren't the best to tube so iv heard. But iv heard there AFM mods you can do and throttle body mods too? Also what are these engines like with a cam and what's best? And anything would be great
Thanks for looking
Ryan

[gte-87]

Cam carbs and full exhaust best for this engine

[Southie]

a 1650CC overbore
Kent ASt2 or Piper BP300 Cam (I prefer the way the AST2 drives)
Blyndenstein B+ head (basically bigger valves and a decent port job)
Deseamed and shot peaned rods + arp bolts
Ashley or similar 4-1 exhaust manifold

Then really your call on the intake/fuelling setup
T40's + 1.4 Red dizzy cap ignition setup as the 1.6 stuff is just crap for getting the advance you want/need/
std inlet with a 3.0L carlton TB and management (not OEM)

Then have it all setup by someone GOOD and you should have near as damn it 150bhp and a pretty bomb proof engine.

^

[meritlover]

has anyone else ever binned the AFM, ran alpha-n or speed density with a decent fuel and ignition ECU and had it tuned properly?

[Southie]

has anyone else ever binned the AFM, ran alpha-n or speed density with a decent fuel and ignition ECU and had it tuned properly?

What's your reason for asking? I haven't but intrigued to know why you thought it.

[Stuart]

has anyone else ever binned the AFM, ran alpha-n or speed density with a decent fuel and ignition ECU and had it tuned properly?

I've seen it done twice, back when it was stupidly expensive. Similar results to carbs but better throttle response all over the range. If only the kids would see the advantage,

[meritlover]

Damn kids!

the long runners make for a good spread of torque. Wide, well flowing standard TB with a exponential opening rate for good drive-ability, simplified idle control, cold start and EGR.... i could go on and on.

The price is literally an ECU, and a mapping session. All the other OE parts can be either binned or re-used.

You are right to suggest carbs as a good compromise, but that's all it ever will be for a road car.

[Southie]

The kids only learn by people in the know how.

I'm never going to get into building an engine but plenty of people may want to know.

[Stuart]

Carbs are the old tried and tested route, not perfect but close enough.

Injection is ace but alas the people that set this up are more random than those who set carbs up lol

[meritlover]

every time someone wants an engine build list, the first thing i comment on is management, ie squirts and sparks: when, where and how much.


i read through pages and pages of threads where people are spending hundreds of pounds on cams and fancy distributors etc to move a power band (not necessarily gain over all!) when for the same money they could gain eveywhere and have a near future proof engine which can easily be tweaked for future mods.

so its cant be the cost..

I also read pages of threads with people who mess around with the wiring for a LET, XE or other engine conversion...

so surely its not the install that puts them off?

Wiring in an ECU to something like a 16SE is easier than wiring in an alarm. With a base map you could drive it round to Maccy D's after about 4 hours of tinkering.

WTF?!

[Stuart]

Because, as ever, electrons are scary to tinkering people.

Its so easy, but I like to make part of my job sound harder than it is lol.
Also long term, management is worth more than carbs so actually the modding is cheaper if you don't mind the cash being held up in an asset.

[meritlover]

Carbs are the old tried and tested route, not perfect but close enough.

Injection is ace but alas the people that set this up are more random than those who set carbs up lol

thats another thing. someone buys some random pair of 40's or 45's (because obviously bigger is better O_o) with no thought to choke size let alone what jets it runs. more time is spend worrying about the port shape than the incredibly complicated thing on the end that actually does all the business.
Its little wonder they give up and drop in an XE, because they think they've 'done it all' or gone as far as they can. but are often throwing away 20hp and the ability to drive and idle.

carbs may be tried and tested, i admit they were certainly, maybe 5 years ago when so few options and tuners were out there. Now there really is no excuse.


consider it an investment, sure your carbs will still be worth maybe moving to your next project, but by the time you get a DCOE or similar conversion manifold and re-jet, emulsion tube and choke it to suit you havent saved much at all. Even if someone handed you a set of carbs which were off a similar setup..it still takes so much time to sort out the fueling again anyway.

An ECU will at most cost you the price of a spare loom or a handful of connectors to transfer to the next project and you now have an almost infinitely variable and adaptable way of adjusting whatever you want.

you are lucky if i have even seen an 8v on TBs these days let alone something interesting.

im ranting now arent i? but please discuss.......

[meritlover]

haha you mentioned the 'assest' thing too. We are the same :)

[RyanGorman]

So what saying is after market management is better? If so what Is the best for this engine?

[therealnovaboy]

I cannot remember the last time i saw a decent (£5000+) 1600 8v rally car running carbs. they all run the standard inlet with programmable ecu.

When i was thinking about my nova build I wanted something different to the norm. hence why i went down the ITBs with management. I think ive only spent around £1000 on the engine so far with the ecu costing around £800. I can use the ecu on any car/engine combination i will ever likely own. In my mind it was a no brainer

If you asked me the best setup would be 1600 8v,
ported and polished head with big valves (best you can find) and skim to up the CR a bit
Kent ASt2 cam,
standard inlet with management,
standard exhaust manifold,
std rods,
std pistons
ARP bolts.

It would be basically what the grp A novas ran

[meritlover]

the best thing for any engine is to have the right amount of fuel and spark delivered in the right quantities at the right time.
there is nothing 'wrong' with a well set up pair of carbs and calibrated distributor, but the amount of time it takes to get it right and cash needed, value for money will be with aftermarket EFI.

If you are going to select a pair of carbs and chokes and have them set up, you will still have to sort out your sparks and some of the abominations of suggestions ive seen on here which people describing as 'fine' or 'ok' are awful, ie. just leave the TPS to dangle and use the OE ign controller (which would give you 2D timing at best) with no optimisation I would bin it and fit management.

You will probably find the gains you get from ECU and tune alone will negate the immediate need to run out and spend so much cash on cams etc. At least that way you can add to it bit by bit.

the OE manifold doesn't look like that out of luck, its pretty well designed. most folk bin it and fit carbs, which is why its neglected for EFI and no one goes back to fitting it an running it properly.

Its a tricky one to answer, arguments for each. Id just like to think at this day and age people can look towards EFI more often.

[RyanGorman]

What kinda power you getting from that? I like idea of using the standard inlet. What ecu you using?

[meritlover]

The brand of ECU to use is not important. Even the cheapest available on the market will run an a 4cyl 8v with batch injection off a hall/optical cam trigger and use the OE coil igniter and distributer.

what is important would be to choose one where it is widely supported or you can get a base map for (even that isnt the end of the world)

stay away from Megasquirt unless you are familiar with these things or have one that is ready to run.

Emerald is pretty good value. great technical support, flexible options. for example you could run a 60-2 trigger wheel and pick-up from a corsa B or 16v for running sequential and coil pack ign. Parts bin stuff is great for these engines.

you can probably get an older emerald for about £3-500 which would be 10 times better than any carbs.

Edit: 10 times better is a bit of a rash statement. it will be a more flexible setup than any carb.

all you would need to do would be bolt on a turbo and remap if you wanted to go down that route.

[philip]

I rate DTA as I've used it a few times on builds, but usually better off speaking to whoever you want to map the car and see what they prefer to use.........may save you a few quid in time as they would be very familiar with it.

Bottom ends with rod bolts I've seen ran @ 8.5k on a grasser for 3years and when stripped bearings/crank were still very good.

What do you want to use the car for ultimately?

[philip]

I rate DTA as I've used it a few times on builds, but usually better off speaking to whoever you want to map the car and see what they prefer to use.........may save you a few quid in time as they would be very familiar with it.

Bottom ends with rod bolts I've seen ran @ 8.5k on a grasser for 3years and when stripped bearings/crank were still very good.

What do you want to use the car for ultimately?

[Stuart]

^^ what Phillllllip said (twice lol )
Brand is irrelevant, the chap (or lady but ive never seen a female chooner) who will calibrate it is key....

Or even better.
Standard 1600 engine, fit ECU, fit Wideband Lambda sensor, learn to calibrate/map yourself. Then mod engine, and recalibrate for free :D

[DAFTJOHN]

I'm picking a Nova with 1.6 T40's up tonight. Fancy a better cam and some work on the head. I'm used to an xe in a nova but the thought of a 150 bhp Nova with a light engine upfront sounds good.

What's the thoughts on cost for head work and 270/300 cams.

[Stuart]

time to break out the old record... Kent AST2 or a Piper BP300

headwork.... Ivor Searle took over the Blyndenstein stuff just before he passed away, so they might be ok at it still

[RyanGorman]

Thanks guys my head is now spinning. Well basically my plans are to have a track day/ fast road car for the weekends. And I'm just trying to get as much info as I can really. I'm not culed up and the management side of things. But I willing to give it a go. Just need alittle help along the way really to know where to start.

[meritlover]

if you're getting someone to map it then its just a matter of wiring it in. there is plenty of support on here if you take the plunge.

you can piece together a loom using a haynes and the ECU manual. its probably easier than wiring in an XE.

[mowgli]

re the group a thing.. they also fitted higher compression pistons..


you could go for bigger capacity & longer stroke using x18xe1/z18xe bits... & a damned good reading of a piston catalogue.

but i'd definitely say spend your money on a new ecu

[meritlover]

agreed,

you can have the best built engine in the world but if its got a flat 10deg timing map and terrible fueling it will be worse than a std engine with things happening properly.

mapping yourself with a wideband is do-able but its still only as good as your target AFR. If you have a map which target AFR gives you best torque then you're laughing, but its only ever going to be a compromise and not 100% suited to your engine. A lot of ECUs now do have a self mapping facility which takes quite a while depending on how far away your base map is to begin with.
You have virtually zero chance of improving a timing base map on the road by seat of your pants tuning unless you start being clever with EGTs etc..but even then...


i think the message is:
get an ECU
get a base map, and if you cant then you can make one fairly easily to allow you to drive to-from the rolling road.
build on your engine to suit where you want the power
final polish up on the RR to get it sweet.
then just enjoy not having to mess around with carbs every time (week) it starts running rough or wont hot/cold start.

[Adam]

At last people are turning against "ye ole carbs" lol
Should be left in the 80s IMO!

Its a well know fact the standard 1600 se inlet/tb can flow well enough 140-150bhp....
But because the engine looks externally standard then that obviously means that its only making standard power too lol

[meritlover]

At last people are turning against "ye ole carbs" lol
Should be left in the 80s IMO!

Its a well know fact the standard 1600 se inlet/tb can flow well enough 140-150bhp....
But because the engine looks externally standard then that obviously means that its only making standard power too lol

esp if you put a Bosch/Siemens sticker on your ECU lol

[mowgli]

or fit the new one inside your old ecu.....

[Stuart]

RR calibration is ok for the last 10% imho

[meritlover]

10% on a 100hp engine is a lot. its the difference between getting gains and having the same as OE. so absolutely worthwhile or its a waste of time.

[Stuart]

not like that... point missed.

[meritlover]

please re-explain point for retarded ML

[Stuart]

Driveability, cold start, idle, idle drive, general behaviour. RR for tweaking full power lark.

[philip]

Clear inbox matey, can't reply to you as its full.