View Full Version : what tow vehicle??????
reevie1987
16-03-13, 04:29 PM
ok so ive got the nova and i have got the car transporter trailer all i need to buy now is something to tow them both with, when some of you guys take your track novas to events on a car transporter what vehicle do you use to tow it? many thanks
I've an old A4 tdi avant which is my workhorse. I did have a tranny and a hiace, but can't justify keeping a van just to pull a car. Might have a look at a Citroen synergie or Peugeot 806 7 seater. Use as a family run about, which I can use as a van when I need it.
kent14sr
16-03-13, 06:40 PM
I have a Mondeo TDCI 115bhp which tows great and is £75 for 6 months tax!
reevie1987
16-03-13, 06:53 PM
is a mondeo ok to tow it because i worked it out and the gross train weight is morealess on the limit
I use a T4 transporter, probably too much gross for someone without a trailer licence though.
chrisd1986
16-03-13, 07:25 PM
ive got a mk4 golf 1.8t, i used that to tow everything small trailer, boat, caravan and i pulled a calibra on a ifor williams twin axel plant trailer which with a calibra on nearly weighed 3 tonn and i pulled that 260 miles home no probs
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb368/chris_d_1986/20120811_164238.jpg
Royston
16-03-13, 07:30 PM
The best towing combination I have ever seen was a mini metro with 4 blokes in it, towing a car trailer with a Ford Granada on it
I use my Range Rover Classic and my tri axle trailer, but it depends on what you can afford/justify and whether you have a suitable B + E licence. Both VOSA and the police are savvy in regards to towing capacities and licences.
If you use an Ifor trailer plated at 3.5 tonnes gross you need a tow car that can tow legally 3.5 tonnes, Mr Chris you have been lucky an 1.8T golf aint big enough;)
meritlover
16-03-13, 07:39 PM
depends what age you are.
The strap around the bumper is also rough as ****! lol
Royston
16-03-13, 07:51 PM
depends what age you are.
No it doesn't actually
B + E (car and trailer entitlement) was automatically given to those that passed their Cat B driving test pre 1997.
If you passed your test after the first of January 1997 you have to pass a B + E driving test.
You can get away with out B + E if your tow vehicle and trailer gross weights are within certain parameters see the DVLA website.
meritlover
16-03-13, 07:58 PM
No it doesn't actually......
errr....yes it does actually,
i could name off hundreds of vehicles which are great for towing, however, for the reasons which iam already aware of and which you have also listed above, this will limit the choices of vehicles which are legal options to the OP.
assuming the OPs username contains his date of birth, i will be able to strike Land Cruisers, 110 defender etc off the list as the gross train weight would almost certainly be exceeded.
OP, what is the trailer like?? as a nova is about 850-900kg, unless you are called colin & like drilling lots of holes in things....
what you need is a van or large-ish extate car that when the weight of the car & the weight of the trailer & nova are all put into the calculator, it works out that it doesn't exceed 3500kg, and the towing capacity car can cope with the trailer +nova .
Royston
16-03-13, 08:12 PM
errr....yes it does actually,
Yes, I see your point, apologies;)
I have a Mondeo TDCI 115bhp which tows great and is £75 for 6 months tax!
Your flywheel won't appreciate it mind!
A mate and I both run 130 TDCi's, and both do a bit of car towing. His more than mine, but his is only on 75K or so and has had the DMF/clutch/starter replaced.
Mine is on 120K, and has been lightly rattling for about 3K.
The thing that ****s the DMF is pulling away (with loaded trailer) and a 130 could do with a remap to make this easier we both agree, so with a115 you are doing well!
use anything to tow any weight, aslong as it moves your on to a winner!
chrisd1986
16-03-13, 09:29 PM
The strap around the bumper is also rough as ****! lol
yes it is but i had one going through front of the car, how i didnt get stopped by the vosa van that follwed me i would have been locked up if i had been caught lol
kent14sr
16-03-13, 09:44 PM
Your flywheel won't appreciate it mind!
A mate and I both run 130 TDCi's, and both do a bit of car towing. His more than mine, but his is only on 75K or so and has had the DMF/clutch/starter replaced.
Mine is on 120K, and has been lightly rattling for about 3K.
The thing that ****s the DMF is pulling away (with loaded trailer) and a 130 could do with a remap to make this easier we both agree, so with a115 you are doing well!
I alsodrive an Insignia Sports Tourer 2.0CDTI (160) and previously had a Vectra 1.9 CDTI(150). In addition I have had a Mondeo 2.2TDCI 155 and several 2.0 TDCIs (130).
The current (115)Mondeo is a second car/workhorse and had a new DMF/clutch/starter/slave 10k ago at 145,500 miles, and in terms of torque for towing it tows as well as most of the above cars - I dont think a DMF and clutch at 145k is bad at all really (1st replacement). The 130 Mondeo only differs by having a variable geometry turbo and a slightly different map, so in essence you only see the extra 15BHP when the turbo cuts in. The 6spd box, whilst useful when not towing at motorway speeds, is little use when towing in my experience (if you chose to obey the law)
I think the main problem with DMFs is that they dont actually like pulling away at any speed, and after having them fail on both Vectras and Mondeos I would agree they are rather troublesome - regardless of if you tow or not. However, with a Mondeo the worse thing you can do is change to a solid flywheel as this takes away all dampening action of the flywheel and the crank absorbs it instead- and often breaks after a while as a result.
meritlover
17-03-13, 11:16 AM
Remember that even though you are within the book towing weight of the car. The real killer is the gross laiden weight of the trailer must not exceed the unladen weight of the car.
So you pick a car that can tow the weight by the book and because it keeps the train weight within 3.5, but then find out your car is lighter than your load.
B&E you can do nearly whatever you like.
I use my 51plate Transit it weighs1800kg + Nova 900kg estimate + Trailer 300kg =3000kg and still have 500kg to play with
meritlover
17-03-13, 11:59 AM
I use my 51plate Transit it weighs1800kg + Nova 900kg estimate + Trailer 300kg =3000kg and still have 500kg to play with
What transit? Most can't pull the skin off a rice pudding..
http://www.anchorvans.co.uk/ford-specifications.php
kent14sr
17-03-13, 12:04 PM
I use my 51plate Transit it weighs1800kg + Nova 900kg estimate + Trailer 300kg =3000kg and still have 500kg to play with
It goes on Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)for the trailer - what you have on is irrelevant, so if you use an Ifor Williams they may be plated at 2500-3000kg, add on the Transit (1800) and you are at 4300-4800kg and over unless of course you have a B+E.
My old car trailer was plated to MAM of 1250kg, so kerbweight of 1584kg for Mondeo (for example) and unladen weight of 1300kg (tow limit of 1800kg which is irrelevant) means it is legal and the weight of trailer and a small car is still well within the trailer MAM. Its perfectly legal to downplate trailers, although obviously if you exceed the plated MAM you are breaking the law. The work Transit (an SWB 85 model) has a towing limit of 900kg on the log book, so it would be illegal to even tow my caravan with it!
Round here the Police and VOSA are hot on cars towing trailers and caravans, paying particular attention to the nose weight of the trailer (ie the weight it exerts on the towball) - towballs usually have a limit on 75-100kg, exceed it and you will get a PG9 from VOSA, and a fine to go with it.
You also have to remember that if you tow illegally - then you may also be uninsured as you are driving (in certain circumstances) in conditions other than those stated on your licence.
It seems a few people are braking the law here. Its done on MAM.
kent14sr
17-03-13, 12:22 PM
It seems a few people are braking the law here. Its done on MAM.
VOSA are onto it now I think, as they realise its easier money than targetting foreign lorry drivers as they used to do. As its quite clear on MAM then they dont need to bother with weigh bridges as its a case of just doing basic sums.
The scary part is the amount who you see doing it, especially using totally ridiculous towing vehicles which wouldnt stand a chance of safely stopping the loaded trailer at 50mph!
meritlover
17-03-13, 12:24 PM
It seems a few people are braking the law here. Its done on MAM.
It's not JUST MAM!! That's the whole point of 90% of these towing threads!
Can someone not just post this link as a sticky and let people work It out for them selves rather than 10 pages of people bizarrely trying to interpret the law in an attempt to convince themselves their doing it right.
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow
That is open to a lot of interpretation since they're using vague statements like "weight" without stating it as the actual mass, or the plated mass of trailers etc. Mixing statements like mass and weight and both using the same unit of Kg would lose you marks in a GCSE Physics exam too I'm sure, so that's a bit amateurish for legal advice imo.
So this is how I interpret it
Say I have an E34 BMW with a 'curb weight' of 1565Kg, this means I can tow a trailer that has an *actual* weight of up to 1565Kg, or an 800Kg car on a 500Kg trailer with 265Kg to spare for tools and spare wheels etc
1565Kg*2 = 3130Kg and 3130Kg < 3500Kg so this satisfies the combined weight.
The car itself also has a maximum towing weight, which in this case is 1800Kg braked so going over this would break the law.
The MAM bit shows itself on part 5 of that page where part 1 is worded a little differently saying "MAM" rather than "weight":
"You’ll need to do this [take the B+E test] if you want to tow a trailer or caravan heavier than 750 kilograms (kg) when the combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of the towing vehicle and the trailer or caravan is more than 3,500kg."
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test
The gross weight of an E34 is 2076 Kg so the trailer would have to be plated to a MAM of:
(3500-2076)Kg=1424Kg
to stay within the law, which overrules the earlier equal to curb weight calculation, being lower.
With an 850kilo car (a Nova on the heavier side) that limits you to having a trailer that weighs less than:
(1424-850)Kg=574Kg.
meritlover
17-03-13, 01:44 PM
That is open to a lot of interpretation since they're using vague statements like "weight" without stating it as the actual mass, or the plated mass of trailers etc. Mixing statements like mass and weight and both using the same unit of Kg would lose you marks in a GCSE Physics exam too I'm sure, so that's a bit amateurish for legal advice imo.
So this is how I interpret it
Say I have an E34 BMW with a 'curb weight' of 1565Kg, this means I can tow a trailer that has an *actual* weight of up to 1565Kg, or an 800Kg car on a 500Kg trailer with 265Kg to spare for tools and spare wheels etc
1565Kg*2 = 3130Kg and 3130Kg < 3500Kg so this satisfies the combined weight.
The car itself also has a maximum towing weight, which in this case is 1800Kg braked so going over this would break the law.
The MAM bit shows itself on part 5 of that page where part 1 is worded a little differently saying "MAM" rather than "weight":
"You’ll need to do this [take the B+E test] if you want to tow a trailer or caravan heavier than 750 kilograms (kg) when the combined maximum authorised mass (MAM) of the towing vehicle and the trailer or caravan is more than 3,500kg."
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-trailer-practical-test
The gross weight of an E34 is 2076 Kg so the trailer would have to be plated to a MAM of:
(3500-2076)Kg=1434Kg
to stay within the law, which overrules the earlier equal to curb weight calculation, being lower.
With an 850kilo car (a Nova on the heavier side) that limits you to having a trailer that weighs less than:
(1424-850)Kg=574Kg.
i agree with the above. It is vague and easy to misinterpret
weight isnt even measured in KGs....but mass is. I'm assuming the regs are based on driving a trailer on earth and would take 9.98 Ms/s as gravitational field strength.
it is odd why they refer to mass and weight as if they are the same thing.
whats even more strange is it encourages people to use a light weight pikey transporter made from a caravan chassis rather than a decent Ifor Williams transporter.
A 'weight' of 1Kg is an accepted convenience thing and 99% of the time makes no difference as unless you're trailering on the moon where there isn't many police anyway it doesn't really matter, but it's a bit unprofessional on a legal advice page to actually mix them imo.
meritlover
17-03-13, 02:02 PM
That's what I thought. Any Lawyer would be able to pic that to pieces if they could remember their 3rd year physics.
if the above is 'law' then thats a pretty big fail in my opinion.
chrisd1986
17-03-13, 02:21 PM
i agree with the above. It is vague and easy to misinterpret
weight isnt even measured in KGs....but mass is. I'm assuming the regs are based on driving a trailer on earth and would take 9.98 Ms/s as gravitational field strength.
it is odd why they refer to mass and weight as if they are the same thing.
whats even more strange is it encourages people to use a light weight pikey transporter made from a caravan chassis rather than a decent Ifor Williams transporter.
yes but those pikey ex caravan trailers are less tha 1/4 the price of a ifor car transporter and are idal size for nova's and other track toys of a simliar size. i plan on doing this as most of the caravans availible are braked whick a trailer over 750kg needs brakes by law iirc
meritlover
17-03-13, 02:39 PM
yes but those pikey ex caravan trailers are less tha 1/4 the price of a ifor car transporter and are idal size for nova's and other track toys of a simliar size. i plan on doing this as most of the caravans availible are braked whick a trailer over 750kg needs brakes by law iirc
i dont dispute this at all. Whilst not all ex caravan based transporters are build badly, some are shocking! It just encourages people to use something inferior and flimsy.
chrisd1986
17-03-13, 02:49 PM
it just depends on who converts it, i plan on reinforcing mine quite a bit but i wont be gettin one with a scabby frame
trust me, ifor williams stuff is certainly not the best by a long way.. they just produce heavy chassis & galvanise them well, then fit KNOTT running gear.
caravans are actually boxes fitted to a proper plated trailer chassis. as long as the load bed is strong enough, and legal, they will be fine.
i saw a bloke with a slightly odd looking caravan the other day at my local fuel station.. i had a closer look & it was an old sprite caravan with a liftable rear end, and a caterham inside.
chrisd1986
17-03-13, 03:05 PM
garage on wheels, like it lol
kent14sr
17-03-13, 03:25 PM
yes but those pikey ex caravan trailers are less tha 1/4 the price of a ifor car transporter and are idal size for nova's and other track toys of a simliar size. i plan on doing this as most of the caravans availible are braked whick a trailer over 750kg needs brakes by law iirc
The problem is that most caravan chassis are not capable or designed to carry the weight of a car, and whilst the car may physically sit on top it doesnt mean its legal or safe. You need to check the type of chassis first and its plated limits.
The problem is that most caravan chassis are not capable or designed to carry the weight of a car, and whilst the car may physically sit on top it doesnt mean its legal or safe. You need to check the type of chassis first and its plated limits.
with this in mind, i was looking at my friend''s brothers small caravan a few minutes ago (its on his drive) and it has a plate on it stating the maximum weight is 999kg, on one axle with 175r14 commercial tyres..
a caravan chassis & wheels will not weight much, maybe 100kg, so if you can sort out some means of driving the car on, and keep it skeletal, you could get a reasonably stripped out nova on one easily
chrisd1986
17-03-13, 06:41 PM
just make some ramps that arnt attacthed and put i deck in with holes or even a slatted deck with angle iron would save weight and still be strong
kent14sr
17-03-13, 06:55 PM
with this in mind, i was looking at my friend''s brothers small caravan a few minutes ago (its on his drive) and it has a plate on it stating the maximum weight is 999kg, on one axle with 175r14 commercial tyres..
a caravan chassis & wheels will not weight much, maybe 100kg, so if you can sort out some means of driving the car on, and keep it skeletal, you could get a reasonably stripped out nova on one easily
Very true, and if made well then it will be a very good trailer. The best car trailer I have ever experienced was an ex horsebox trailer that had been converted to a very high standard (think it was a Richardson chassis) and this was as good as any Ifor Williams or Brian James I have towed.
I think the more modern the caravan, the less likely the chassis will be suitable - ie Alko type ones which are purposely designed as lightweight.
Trailers are all going to be licensed and tested in the not too distant future. All home made trailers will have to subjected to the IVA test believe it or not? All factory made transporters and trailers are type approved, and are manufactured to exact specifications. These specifications have to be met with home made trailers (sorry to bear bad news but it is coming). It will be after IVA testing that a gross vehicle weight for home made trailers will be decided. All trailers such as Brian James etc have a maximum gvw (trailer and load together). It is the calculation of the trailer gvw and the towing vehicle gvw that determine the licence required, not what is actually on the trailer at the time, meaning what the potential weight could be. A 1500kg passat towing an empty Brian James trailer, with a maximum weight of 2400 gross (as in trailer and payload) will mean the driver is required to have a B+E. However a touring caravan weighting 800kg with a maximum weight of 1200kg on its plate, being towed by a civic with a kerb weight of 1400kg (calculated as driver and full tank of fuel), with 2 adults, 2 kids, and all their holiday rubbish, bringing the towing vehicle up to its maximum permissible weight of 1900kg, 1900 gross +1200 gross = 3100kg gross, and can be driven with a B only category licence. I hope this explains how it's worked. Driving to a weigh bridge and putting your tow car, Brian James trailer and nova on the scales and arguing that it's under 3500kgs doesn't matter, it's based on potential weight.
meritlover
17-03-13, 08:30 PM
I dont think thats strictly true as the laden weight of the caravan exceeds the unladen weight of the car(not fully laden) even though its under the total train weight of 3.5t
I dont think thats strictly true as the laden weight of the caravan exceeds the unladen weight of the car(not fully laden) even though its under the total train weight of 3.5t
I don't understand, my example has a car weighing 1900, or 1400 unladen, with a caravan weighing 1200 laden, and it still falls within the gov guidelines as the trailer being lighter than the towing vehicle.
meritlover
17-03-13, 08:39 PM
Ye sorry, i read it wrong. Because you bracketed after the 1400kgs i took that as not being the unladen weight but the laden. Your example stands as correct.
it was almost certain that home made trailers were on their way out.
It's coming, it's going to get very strict out there. The classified are full of really well constructed home made trailers for wee money, when they were still quite expensive not too many years ago. At the same time there is a lot of sh!.te out there.
chrisd1986
17-03-13, 09:21 PM
just another government scam if you ask me to make money. the dodgy ones out there are usually made by pikeys, farmers and chavs but you can tell if its a good one by the person who is selling it. the ifor i used is a well known trailer with good build quality but the fella who owned abused it and it was dodgy as f u c k
joff-turbo-nova
17-03-13, 09:41 PM
If I was getting a towing car it would have to be this one ....
http://www.themadmile.com/Albums/2011%20Dave/Dave%20Pics/album/slides/P1040987.JPG
Inspired by Top Gear!
Joff
Wow, thats cool Joff, touring car replica, and a local registered car too :d
joff-turbo-nova
17-03-13, 10:07 PM
Wow, thats cool Joff, touring car replica, and a local registered car too :d
There was one selling on ebay that had failed its MOT for handbrake and a headlight problem - 130k miles - £1500 - fully livery with "Rydell" on the rear windows - was tempted but it was in Devon or somewhere at the ends of the earth (well from Yorkshire anyway!)
Joff
That wouldve been a worthy buy, with a few mods T5's make silly power, iirc theyre the engines in the focus ST arent they?
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