View Full Version : tyres for grip on a redtop
I have been testing 0-60 on 3 sets of tyres
1. Hancook 195s 15" just continual wheelspin with hardly any pedal...best i could get is 9.0 secs
2, maganoni 185 14" best I could get due to poor traction, 7.5 secs
3. the Michelin green x xse 175s 14" the car came with these, it felt better but after several attempts could only still get 7.5 secs.
My 1.4 does it in 7.8 (according to the same clocks). Although after 70mph obviously the redtop just flies in comparison.
Obviously the problem is wheel spin in the first 4 gears. Driving very controlled to stop wheelspin means the car is not a lot better at initial acceleration and seems a waste of all the power.It is damp but not wet in Aberdeen today, but it is at least damp for the other 364 days of the years too!
What do other people get for 0-60 with redtops?
you need to tell us what suspension/ other mods you have done.
also there is no way on this earth your 1.4 really does 0-60 in 7.8.
Royston
13-01-13, 06:26 PM
Warmed the tyres?, dry surface, lower ambients, lots of other factors to consider
was the fast 1.4 tested at the same time under the same conditions?
you need to tell us what suspension/ other mods you have done.
The only mods are vented brakes, the suspension is FK coilover dampers with 250 springs at the front which will be changed to 325s when they come home. It has the lowered antiroll bar at the front and a strut brace and as far as I know the engine is a standard redtop with a F20 gearbox.
also there is no way on this earth your 1.4 really does 0-60 in 7.8.
On the same clocks it does consistently with testing however, bear in mind the clocks version of 60 mph may be closer to 50 mph...
Warmed the tyres?, dry surface, lower ambients, lots of other factors to consider
was the fast 1.4 tested at the same time under the same conditions?
So on a warmish day (occasionally in August in Scotland) I should get to take more advantage of the power, just wondered if other folk get loads of wheel spin if they boot a redtop in lower gears?
Royston
13-01-13, 06:47 PM
My best time for my Sport (1.3 obviously) is 16.6 standing quarter at Santa Pod (sticky track) on a dry warm day with a badly tuned engine running 93 HP std Yokohama A539 road tyres
The same car at York Race way same spec did 17.3s standing quarter
Since then I have fitted a high lift cam, all tuned up (102HP) and at York (non sticky track) does 17.3s, even with track day tyres, and low tyre pressures and I still get wheelspin and loose time getting the hook off the line, similar conditions, had 4 attempts now, still no improvement:(.
Obviously with a redtop you should have a great deal more poke, so grip will be paramount to improving times, I'm reluctant to spend £500+ on an LSD for the Sport for occasional strip use
^ Really surprised you struggle getting off the line, I can pretty much dump the clutch at 4k on mine and it just squeaks and launches.
That's at pod with track tires and feck all pressure. On the road I have to wait till 3rd till I can properly open her up.
b943weg
13-01-13, 07:25 PM
What rear suspension have you got? If the front is really stiff, and the rear isnt, too much weight transfer to the rear much stop your front from getting grip.
Also, if the front is too stiff, especially in roll, you may have a lot of understeer in the wet. How does it corner when the road's greasy?
My best time for my Sport (1.3 obviously) is 16.6 standing quarter at Santa Pod (sticky track) on a dry warm day with a badly tuned engine running 93 HP std Yokohama A539 road tyres
The same car at York Race way same spec did 17.3s standing quarter
Since then I have fitted a high lift cam, all tuned up (102HP) and at York (non sticky track) does 17.3s, even with track day tyres, and low tyre pressures and I still get wheelspin and loose time getting the hook off the line, similar conditions, had 4 attempts now, still no improvement:(.
Obviously with a redtop you should have a great deal more poke, so grip will be paramount to improving times, I'm reluctant to spend £500+ on an LSD for the Sport for occasional strip use
So it's not just me then? I was just a bit frustrated although the 1.4 will spin in 2nd and 3rd when wet, today I was surpised to find the michelins and other tyres made no difference, the only way I can get off efficiently is to drive like a grandad!
What rear suspension have you got? If the front is really stiff, and the rear isnt, too much weight transfer to the rear much stop your front from getting grip.
Also, if the front is too stiff, especially in roll, you may have a lot of understeer in the wet. How does it corner when the road's greasy?
The rear is fk shocks with lower springs, I have no specifications but I know it's very stiff and you get no rock in the car upon acceleration also it lifts the back wheel when you jack up the front. I have never had any oversteer with this rear set up.
I have ordered even stiffer front springs to help cornering, it under steers in wet and dry.
you have a problem in that for decent cornering, you need stiff springs fro fast road/track, but this makes starting worse...
you will always lay rubber when wellying an xe nova from standstill, an LSD will help, but you will still lay rubber...
maybe a racelogic type traction control is what you need
b943weg
13-01-13, 07:40 PM
If the front anti roll bar and springs are too stiff, that will cause understeer, especially in the wet. Making the front even stiff will make the understeer even worse.
If its too stiff, there will not be enough weight transfer to get the weight onto the tyre that needs it the most. Causing it to spin the inside wheel and again making understeer worse
b943weg
13-01-13, 07:40 PM
Or you could just put 200kg of cement in your engine bay LOL
Royston
13-01-13, 08:18 PM
^ Really surprised you struggle getting off the line, I can pretty much dump the clutch at 4k on mine and it just squeaks and launches.
That's at pod with track tires and feck all pressure. On the road I have to wait till 3rd till I can properly open her up.
Doesn't one have an LSD/Gripper diff?lol
The Pod is sticky, York Dragway isn't so a massive difference in grip (I'm also told slightly uphill), I've never had chance to go back to the Pod with the Sport with her current set up, maybe one day.....
As a comparison with my Vitesse it is the opposite, too much grip at the Pod, 16.3s std quarter, and bogs off the line and at York 15.8s being rwd and having a tall 1st gear
I managed 5.9 secs 0-60 with my XE at York on Toyo T1R's.
Bin the Arb, soften the front dampers and kee the font springs as is.... Then try the handling stuff agan, ignore the 0-60 guff on the road.
I do have an ATB, but I believe Dave Dixon doesn't run one and does ok.
ATBs imo only help on cornering if both wheels are still on the ground ive just sacked mine off and running a stock diff as you still get wheelspin with an ATB off the line
i thought hobbits car left a nice 11 down the a444 at the nats... allegedly
Royston
13-01-13, 08:59 PM
I think the problem with the Sport, yes I know it's a 1.3, is due to the inability to balance the engine revs/power delivery with the 40's, too much throttle gives excessive wheel spin, (probably one wheel rather than the pair, I can't tell I'm in the seat) not enough she bogs down
The SR was a doddle to launch, 3.5k drop clutch 6 feet to twin black lines and gone.
Another visit to the Pod would provide the answers.
And or I can't drivelol
I think for me the frustration is not being able to put my foot right down and having to take off with control......common sense I suppose with double the power I'm used to
get it moving, then welly it......
but the 0-60 is a duff measurement... gm actually put a taller gearbox in the astra 16v to improve its 0-60 time..... you didn't need to change it into 3rd to get 60mph....
That's what i have found, over 60 mph it takes off, but before that it is no faster than a small block purely due to lack of traction control!
check out trackdaynova's wip thread, he did loads to his car, in great detail.
I had a 182 and that had no issues with traction on the oem Michelin tyres.... When I moved it to pikey tyres there was no wet grip (I found his fun, but others aren't as pervy as me lol ).
I am very confused with the springing of the car. Many people have advised at least 300lb front springs for a redtop track use, yet some other folk have said soften it?
The redtop conversion build thread recommends the minimum of 300lb again?
It is ok with 250 but I haven't tried cornering it the way i would on a track and although the 250lb was brilliant for the 1.4, the redtop is a lot heavier.
I had a 182 and that had no issues with traction on the oem Michelin tyres.... When I moved it to pikey tyres there was no wet grip (I found his fun, but others aren't as pervy as me lol ).
When I started restoring my swing, I bought 4 arrowspeed tyres fitted for £100. Got it back from paint jon on the Saturday and did this on the Monday.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/IMAG0028_zps0eeccb8e.jpg
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/IMAG0029_zps1e125dc5.jpg
A woman drove out a junction in front of me whilst I was going at 70, I swerved to avoid her, the arrowspeeds didn't exactly grip but fortunately there were 6ft embankments on both roadsides. The back end just had bumper damage. I got a new front panel, bumper bar, restraghtened the bumpersetc but all four bumpers still have marks which I have decided to leave as battle scars and remind me......not to swerve and drive according to your tyres!
Incidently she drove off like a bat out of hell and left me, nice,
jimbob-mcgrew
14-01-13, 12:55 AM
is your 1.4 turbo'd marc ? spinning in 2nd and 3rd is quite a job unless either the cars all setup wrong or your driving styles over agressive.
unfortunatly those clocks arent accurate enough for a decent 0-60 test. ive hit nearly 50 in first gear within a couple of seconds once when it was spinning its nuts off, i must have been going 5-10mph tops. and there usually 5-10 mph out ontop.
check your tyre pressures arent too high, and the tracking too.
are you running regular et49 vaux wheels or something different ? i think it can effect camber/caster angles if i remember rightly ?
and like stuart said, a softer setup at the front would prob help it bounce around less.
theres a big dispute on the anti-roll bar so i wont even go there :)
to be fair 150 donkies is alot to put in a little nova, your bound to get some spin low down.
let us know how you get on
The 1.4 turboed lol No, the valve timing and ignition timing have been set by ear by me so that let's you know the level of build! The 2e3 modified does work well though and makes it shift.
I have lowered the tyre pressure but not softening the suspension but hoping to stiffen it purely for better handling on the track.
I have tried it on vauxhall steels, 15" allessios and also astra gte wheels which is what it will probably stay on for the moment.
I think I'll have to learn how to use the pedal rather than just continual flooring whoch may have something to do with what you said re overaggressive.
turbojolt
16-01-13, 04:14 PM
why dont you focus on your driving style over changing parts etc first, half throttle it up to the end of 2nd gear or somethng
why dont you focus on your driving style over changing parts etc first, half throttle it up to the end of 2nd gear or somethng
Yes, that's what I found yesterday, don't give it all the power at lower speeds, bear in mind I am used to driving a 1.0 where it is full throttle just to move.
Looks like I need to learn to drive again.
turbojolt
16-01-13, 04:24 PM
thats it mate ease it up to the grip level the times are bound to come down, ive read of the people with let engines and they have to wait till 3rd to give it the beans lol
jimbob-mcgrew
18-01-13, 04:40 PM
scotlands roads arent exactly melting in the sun either, so thats another grip factor.
maybe just focus on a smooth clutch release with controlled throttle, then when you feel it grip, give it the big one :)
Well I have spent a few weeks changing the springs, camber angle and tracking. (thanks to Iain for help with Camber help especially)
Traction is so much better, unbeleivable.
0-60 on the same speedo (probably in the 50s?6K rpm in 2nd gear) and with the same people in the car came down from what it was earlier in thread (will check in a minute) to 5.2 seconds consistently. That's full interior and two adults, am well pleased.
I just hope it's as good in the corners, i did test going right round roundabouts mentally and it seemed good, diffetrent to the 1.4 but stuck to the road with a bit of squeal. But it's not an accurate test!
7.5 to 5.2 secs, and it felt like that sort of improvement, well pleased!
what did you do with camber? iv got some camber bolts to fit
Glad I could help, I love attacking roundabouts for geometry testing/changes lol
what did you do with camber? iv got some camber bolts to fit
I went 1 degree negative but was going to go 1.5 but the struts went to 1 degree without any drilling. Car was on track today and handled reasonably well, very different to a smallblock and the track was mostly damp.
Royston
24-02-13, 07:33 PM
I think the problem with the Sport, yes I know it's a 1.3, is due to the inability to balance the engine revs/power delivery with the 40's, too much throttle gives excessive wheel spin, (probably one wheel rather than the pair, I can't tell I'm in the seat) not enough she bogs down
And or I can't drivelol
We will soon have the answer, I will soon have a LSD for the Sport, will need to get it fitted soon:d
We will soon have the answer, I will soon have a LSD for the Sport, will need to get it fitted soon:d
for the sport, will tyres and suspension not take care of it, made a huge difference to the xe
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