View Full Version : 1000cc Turbo
matt_vaughan
31-12-12, 01:58 PM
Trying to find a competitive engine setup cheaply for hillclimb/sprints. XE/LET is no-go, would end up in Libra class against Radicals etc. 1600 is uncompetitive without thousands spent really. The only reasonable option is to go tiny-block and build something along the lines of Colin's Turbo'd 1000cc. However, I dont have the funds, experience or time to start sleeving and converting to Metro pistons etc. Has anyone any ideas on crank/rod/piston configuration which allow will me to drop to 1000cc to run in >1400 class with Forced induction?
I have a 1300 block, TD04 from a scooby-doo and enough workshop equipment to hand to give James May a "crisis". The engine will also be running Megasquirt, so properly managed.
matt_vaughan
31-12-12, 03:31 PM
Closest I can get:
12NV or SPI bottom end, 12ST crank (and maybe rods?), gives me 1024cc. Need to get under that ideally.
A 1.0 12v from a corsa... Boost, done
matt_vaughan
31-12-12, 03:45 PM
The rules state the block must be of type which was originally fitted to the "range" of model. So unless I go for anything original block wise (1.0-1.6 8v), we're talking Libra class (Radicals etc). Otherwise that would be a relatively easy way out. Dont like 3 pots either to be honest.
They wont know if its not a standard engine from the car,
The small block xe's where never put in Nova's but all the nova rally cars run the
In the 1400cc
The block is "externally identifiable" as something that was originally fitted though as it's the same as an 8v block.
matt_vaughan
31-12-12, 04:13 PM
I think they'd notice a cylinder missing......
Right now, the only "legal" option as far as hillclimb classes go, that would be semi-competitive and yet still relatively cheap to build would be a boosted 1400 SPI. Compression ratio already low, engines are ten-a-penny to replace, and if I can get about 150 hp from it, it would be relatively competitive in the up to 2.0 litre class (1396 x 1.4 equivalency ratio). In that class it would be competing against 205 GTIs, Integra Type Rs and a Mental G40 Polo though.
The 1400XE is another option, but once again, mega money to be competitive.
Boost a 16v rather than an SPI. extra valves is instant gain and to be fair with anything turbo charged you can pull whatever power you want out of it wallet depending, unlike N/A which is limited.
Why are you worried what your competing against?
It you can't afford to build an engine that can compete with the others then you can't win as there is always someone with more money.
I'd go the turbo 1400 route and have fun with it.
Re the under 1000cc I'd go for a bigger block and short stroke it to suit rather that the turbo route, many rpm and less weight, have you weighed the turbo and manifold yet? Bet it's not light,
matt_vaughan
31-12-12, 04:33 PM
I'm not bothered about being top 3 etc, but I do want something that will be fun and mix with the field. Unfortunately the Nova's engine range doesn't lend itself really to hillclimb/sprint classes.
As far as the extra weight of the turbo goes, its pretty clear that to get anything above ~130 hp from a small block no matter which it's either mega bucks time, or forced induction. Bang for buck, the turbo seems the best option.
Look at colin smiths hillclimber. I am pretty sure his started off as a 1.2 OHC and was destroked with a new crank and rods.
The perfect crank and rods would be the 1.0 ohv one as the 1.0 and 1.2injection are both 72mm bore but I don't know if it would fit the 1.2 block
72 bore and 61 stroke gives you the 993 cc you need
The 1l ohv that has no interchangeable parts with the ohc engine you mean?
novarally
31-12-12, 05:56 PM
Look at colin smiths hillclimber. I am pretty sure his started off as a 1.2 OHC and was destroked with a new crank and rods.
Hi Gary.......no, mine is a standard 1200cc block, crank and rods. It uses steel liners in the bores to reduce the capacity, and the Austin Mini/Metro 70.6mm pistons. I believe there was a small modification to the rods to allow them to mate to the pistons, but I'm not sure of the exact details.
The head and camshaft is standard 1600cc eight valve.
In fact I will update my 'Project' thread soon as it's been a long while since I did, and there is some progress, including some engine development work.
Yes it is well over due colin lol hope everything going good with you though and that your settled in your new place
The 1l ohv that has no interchangeable parts with the ohc engine you mean?
That would by why I put the words " I don't know if they fit " some of us are not afraid to admit we don't know everything.
therealnovaboy
31-12-12, 07:37 PM
use a 1.2 and leave one of the plugs out. :)
it works out that if you use 1.2spi bore & 1200st stroke, you get 993cc. the brazilians actually made such a thing to run on corn alcohol.
now you either go gte, like colin's engine, but with small cutouts in the block to clear the valves, or you go with a 1400 16v head, and break some new ground.
then stick a turbo on & some management.
or you go 1600 block & get a new crank made to destroke it to 1.0, then turbo it to death
I get 1024cc from 72mm bore and 62.9 stroke mowgli ?
How come I get different figures to you?
matt_vaughan
01-01-13, 11:54 AM
I got that too Bazil.
Looking at using donor parts from another GM family engine for high boost application :D
my bad.... i was trying to remember some info from a couple of years ago & had been drinking .
the corsa 1.0 vhc flexpower (brazil) uses a 71.1mm bore with a 1200st stroke to make 999cc.
there is an old school method that might just manage to lower the stroke. people used to do it to up the stroke.
basically you get the big end journals on the crank offset ground to the max undersize you can fit. but i think it might be cheaper to get the block sleeved.
i believe its very difficult to get vehicle parts out of brazil.. unless you can find someone with contacts over there to sell you an engine.
peester
01-01-13, 03:27 PM
you think its possible to build a good 1.0 turbo, cheaply?
matt_vaughan
01-01-13, 04:01 PM
No. I believe its possible to build a good 1400 turbo cheaply.
peester
01-01-13, 04:35 PM
ah apologies, but what about the classing if you go 1.4 turbo?
novarally
01-01-13, 06:06 PM
ah apologies, but what about the classing if you go 1.4 turbo?
Puts you into the 1401-2000cc Class for hillclimbing and sprinting, so you're up against hoardes of 205 Mi16's, 2 litre Mk.1 and Mk.2 Escorts, and of course at the top of the tree Keith Murray in his awesome 1400 turbo Audi 80.........
Still lots of fun, but I can't see a Nova challenging for top honours in that Class.
Can you not run a 4 cylinder engine as a 3 cylinder..... Remove the piston, rod and valves.
i doubt it would hold together..
Can you not run a 4 cylinder engine as a 3 cylinder..... Remove the piston, rod and valves.
It wouldn't be very balanced?!
meritlover
01-01-13, 06:58 PM
Can you not run a 4 cylinder engine as a 3 cylinder..... Remove the piston, rod and valves.
Your technical knowledge and understanding makes me giggle.
It'd work, its a race engine.... Life is meant to be short.
therealnovaboy
01-01-13, 08:11 PM
It wouldnt last 2 mins with a conrod missing.
I'm up for proving this lol. Ill grab a b later in the year and remove a rod. I've seen a few dervs make it over a hundred k with a piston missing (rod was there!!!! ) due to a batch defect on a line.
seriously???? picture proof please....
i was at the tractor dealership when a 3 pot massey ferguson came in popping & farting.... we found no.2 piston & rod were missing & there was a jubilee clip on the big end to keep the oil moving thru the crank!!
i've seen some shockers over the years... yet the tractors kept moving long enough to get thru an auction.
On a more serious note, drop two pistons out (on the same stroke plane) and have a two cylinder.... I mean what's to say Colin's engine isn't really sleeved (not saying it isn't but you know what I mean) and he's running a 1200 properly. Take an xe, lose two, have just shy of 1000cc..... Fit let parts, rock and roll. Ok it'll be a little lumpy but a well designed flywheel will fix most of that as far as a race engine is concerned.
i saw something years back about someone racing in an up to 1000 class with a 2 pot BDA engine.. there is also an american race engine company that makes a v4 out of a sawn off small block.
its all down to the rules really.
its a pity the 12v is such a shocking engine
I'd have built a 12v turbo using the v6 parts if the sodding ports lined up etc.
do a baxter & get the dremel out.
seriously the manifold altering is hardly difficult...
my homemade powerbox was quite easy to make...pics in my wip will follow
meritlover
01-01-13, 09:13 PM
I'd have built a 12v turbo using the v6 parts if the sodding ports lined up etc.
the CB80/70 ports are not even close either.
novarally
01-01-13, 09:43 PM
i saw something years back about someone racing in an up to 1000 class with a 2 pot BDA engine
Correct, a 2-pot BDA ran mid-mounted in a 1970's spaceframe Fiat 500 Thundersaloon circuit racer - 'The Mighty Mouse'.
The car itself still turns out on hillclimbs occasionally, owned by Ian Medcalf, it now has a Swiftune A-Series in the middle. It's one of the best presented race cars I've ever seen;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48780137@N05/6158666892
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alansart/7400458628/
therealnovaboy
01-01-13, 09:56 PM
a quick google returned this. http://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2675
matt_vaughan
02-01-13, 08:20 AM
Puts you into the 1401-2000cc Class for hillclimbing and sprinting, so you're up against hoardes of 205 Mi16's, 2 litre Mk.1 and Mk.2 Escorts, and of course at the top of the tree Keith Murray in his awesome 1400 turbo Audi 80.........
Still lots of fun, but I can't see a Nova challenging for top honours in that Class.
I've got an idea using some Daewoo parts, hopefully they'll drop compression ratio enough for me to run reasonable boost on a 1396cc NZ. The limitation from then on I suppose will be the bottom end, however C14NZ bottom ends aren't going to break the bank if i need to experiment a bit. Colin is right though, and this is the problem I've faced, no combination seems to be an obvious answer as far as classing in sprints/hillclimbs go.
a 1600 conrod is shorter than a 1400 one. so you can drop the cr that way too
matt_vaughan
03-01-13, 01:41 PM
Scrapped the idea of the de-stroke, just way too much hassle, here's the WIP plan:
- C14NZ Bottom End (Completely standard bar ARP rod bolts)
- Daewoo 1.6 16v Cylinder Head (1.5 is exactly same)
- Ford Focus 1.8 Zetec Manifold, modified for Daewoo head + Turbo
- TD04 Turbo from Subaru Impreza
- Megasquirt V3
Looking at 200+ hp on relatively low boost judging by what the crazy European Daewoo guys are getting. 14NZ block are scrap value so not bothered about this being an "experimental" engine.
Most importantly, 1396cc x 1.4 (equivelancy factor) = 1954 cc :thumb:
what about a 1.4 block with 1.2 pistons 1.3 rods and crank with an e16se head with low boost?
matt_vaughan
03-01-13, 02:45 PM
what about a 1.4 block with 1.2 pistons 1.3 rods and crank with an e16se head with low boost?
That just sounds like lots of opportunity for failure to me. I'd rather spend the time and money getting it set up properly on standalone than trying to build a bottom end like that. The Daewoo boys seem to have proven that these little engines can command some power so going to have a go. As far as I can tell so far, no-one's done this in a Vauxhall before, and if they have, I cant find it.
That just sounds like lots of opportunity for failure to me. I'd rather spend the time and money getting it set up properly on standalone than trying to build a bottom end like that. The Daewoo boys seem to have proven that these little engines can command some power so going to have a go. As far as I can tell so far, no-one's done this in a Vauxhall before, and if they have, I cant find it.
i think mowgli did that bottom end, but with a 1.3 block, Could be wrong. Im doing it with a 1.4 as its less meat to take off when reboring
EDIT: but fair enough mate, if that way has been tried and tested then fair play :)
i did, you can get decent compression out of using the 1200st pistons. if you were going n/a. but a 1400 with an e16se head would be better for a turbo, but to be honest, you should be looking for at least 300hp to try to win the up to 2000 class. colin has around 200 in th eup to 1400 class
matt_vaughan
03-01-13, 04:18 PM
I was always under the impression that the 12st/13s hybrid engine resulted in mental high compression? Like "get some dishes machined into those pistons quick!" compression! :D
Looking at the heads on the Daewoos, I can see where the low comp comes from, there's a huge chamber as far as I can tell, but I'm not really an expert, still trying to learn here :D
Mowgli, I've competed at Harewood previously in a single seater 1100cc Hillclimb car, however it's mega expensive to run and repair and it's not mine (my dads)! I'll be happy with 200+, dont want to spend mega bucks on the block and I think anything above 10-15 PSI on standalone will probably start to push the block past it's abilities.
In the >2000cc Modified Production Class I'm up against 205s, Integras etc etc. Yes, the Nova will probably not be class winning, I just dont want to be left frustrated by a hurrendous lack of power.
the 1200+1300=1400 does give about 11.5:1cr on a 1200 head, with an e16se head, it is nearer 10:1cr, and STU reckons its relatively simple to (his version of simple, not ours) to control a turbo on 10:1cr..
you could build something for the up to 1400 8v class (if there is such a thing) quite cheaply to start off with.
i bet an 1800 16v built into an e16se block with a x16xel head would make for an interesting motor at not massive outlay..
Simple and power off boost
matt_vaughan
04-01-13, 10:56 AM
the 1200+1300=1400 does give about 11.5:1cr on a 1200 head, with an e16se head, it is nearer 10:1cr, and STU reckons its relatively simple to (his version of simple, not ours) to control a turbo on 10:1cr..
you could build something for the up to 1400 8v class (if there is such a thing) quite cheaply to start off with.
i bet an 1800 16v built into an e16se block with a x16xel head would make for an interesting motor at not massive outlay..
The up to 1400 class does exist, I just want something quicker. Coming from a 400+bhp/tonne single seater to >100 hp in Nova shell will probably have me making a bee-line back to the OMS.
Just to save me lots of messing about with figures etc, the whole 1.8 XE built into 16SE block with 16v head, what does that accomplish?
I'm still open to new ideas, there's no better sound imho than a set of carbs or bodies going at it full chat, its just a case of boost is more competitive and cheaper power because I have half the parts already.
Just to save me lots of messing about with figures etc, the whole 1.8 XE built into 16SE block with 16v head, what does that accomplish?
you get an 1800 that is allowable in a nova for competition use as it uses a block from the model range.
i've not really gone into it, but it would appear that with some decent cams, and bodies, and maybe a touch of port tidying, you'd be knocking on 200hp with some torque to match.
i did once read about a company that built 1600 ecotec for the kit car rally rules that were running 220+hp engines, and a customer blew up his engine testing just before a rally. they slapped on arp bolts, & the throttle bodies & were making 201hp from a std c16xe!!!! i still have the CCCmag article somewhere
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