Maximum bore limit on E16

[bazil]

Does anyone know how much I can bore my E16 block out to?

It's currently Standard at 79mm but wondering what I can safley go to?

[16v Nova Kev]

I want to know this too

[bazil]

Me first
I had my hand up first lol

[16v Nova Kev]

1700 would be nice eh

[MK999]

16/1800 16v's go to 82mm, and as far as I'm aware the blocks are the same geometry.

edit: In terms of rough bore size and spacing! 1800 may be 'taller' never had 2 to compare.

[bazil]

Superb :)

[16v Nova Kev]

8v tho?

[MK999]

99.99% sure they are the same bore size/spacing for the 1600 16v's, so logic leads you to say the bore size/spacing is the same as an X18XE1 (as the crank will fit a 1600 16v) and I know for a fact an X18XE1 will run at 230BHP with an 82mm bore, i.e safe maximum.

[maddogdaz666]

When I looked into it years ago for a nova GTE I was told I could safely bore the 1.6 8v out to 1700 cc or just shy of it.

[MK999]

I make 1700 about 81.5. That could be the maximum size on gaskets available? I know Lee303 runs a custom Ferriday on his 1800

[mowgli]

i am planning to fit z18xe crank piston & rods into an e16se block. they are 80.5mm std, with an 81.00mm oversize.
the z18xe pistons are flat top, so i am going to have to measure it really accurately for valve clearances. if it works, it should be a lot of fun,


c612dnm is the man for these, he was running a 1600 crank & got it bored out to around 1800 for racing.

[bazil]

Pretty much what I was thinking mowgli, my only concern is the 88.2 stroke might not be ideal the more I think about it.

It would be fine for NA but might be to high CR for turbocharging, so I'm now thinking about custom rods, MK999 has gave me some great info so I can look more into this for my build

[mowgli]

the z18xe appears to use the 1600 rods, with a shorter distance between the gudgeon pin & the crown, than the 1600..

if you kept the 1600 crank & fitted the oversize 1800 piston, you would get really low cr.

also..the accralite website lists a corsa 1800 turbo piston!!!

[bazil]

I could lower the CR by simply using 1600 turbo rods and pistons, you can get them upto 81mm too but I'm looking for the increase in stroke too for even more displacement, don't quote me but I think it's 24mm between the crown and gudgeon pin on the z18 which is bloody short. The XE1 pistons are cut out so must be taller?

Sadly I'm sticking with the 8V head as I want to retain it so it's about maximizing everything else inside it for me,

The 1800 turbo was probably the corsa C Sri turbo engine, I forgot about that one lol

Edit, I was wrong lol the corsa Sri not 1600 too LEL I think

[mowgli]

my piston book says the x18xe1 & z18xe pistons are the same

finding short enough factory rods might be difficult, as the longer the stroke, the shorter the rods.. unless there is some funky gm design oddity. do the diesel engines have anything approaching the right size rods?

[bazil]

It's the rod sizes I'm struggling with mowgli, I have very little info for them, 129.750 is the size I have for X16 ones and as you say I beleive the Z18's are the same length,
I don't even know if I can get away with the Z18 crank and rods with 81mm forged deep dish pistons for the z16let
Plus I'm still to look at the oil pump to see if I use E16 pump to fit the Z18crank

[mowgli]

i'll take some piccys of the crank i bought off joff when i'm at the yard, then i'll post them up.

i can't imagine the oil pump drive is any different to an e16se, i mean, why would they change it, when it works fine

[bazil]

The pump is just an area I haven't looked at yet, to be honest I only really started looking into this last night when I saw a " stroker " kit for the 1600 vxr engine, at over 2.5k I thought there's bound to be a cheaper way than having a new crank cut,

[MK999]

The oil pump you have to grind a bit of the block down so it sits flush I believe, but that was on a 16v, afaik blocks are 'the same' but to what extent I'm not sure.

X18XE1/Z18XE pistons are the same dimensions but Z18's have a slippy coating on the skirt as standard.

1600 and 1800 rods are interchangeable, again based on 16v stuff, I'm assuming it's all the same dimensions as people say.

What you really need to figure out Bazil, is what you want out of the engine. If it's just to run a stroked E16 then fair enough, but chances are there are cheaper/easier ways to the power/drivability you want.

[bazil]

Well I know I want no less than 200bhp that's my baseline.

I am looking at using the 80.5 pistons ( Z18 ) or 81mm forged ones with deep dish cut out ( aftermarket ones ) with the rods you mentioned in your message on the E16 crank

If the Z18 crank can offer me a potential increase in bhp then I have to seriously look at it, I could use the Z18 crank and pistons and have rods made to my spec,

All this is easily said by a fool who isn't by any means an engine builder, I still need someone to check my homework and tell me if I'm right, I'm not afraid to admit its a out of my range of talents all this stuff,

[MK999]

200bhp should be fairly easy, easiest and cheapest way to it is to just get a healthy X18 mind, but it depends if you want the E16 'look' in the bay. I'm not sure what the head CC is like on the E16, but the X18XE1 is huge, never got round to actually measuring it though unfortunately.

[bazil]

Sadly my engine build is not a logical one but a sentimental one.

I want to keep the E16 look in the bay as you say so 8V head and standard inlet will be retained, so the best I can do is go overboard with the internals.

I'm going to find out if I can get Z18 pistons made that would drop my CR to 8:1 or 8.5:1 as that my target, im thinking that using the Z18 crank and rods with made to measure pistons would be the easiest route now.

[meritlover]

Brazil, the standard inlet is quite good for OE, you can have them internally slurry polished to improve the flow. Will you be keeping the OE flowmeter? How will you be controlling this engine which you are breathing life to?

[MK999]

You need to check the head and block CC's with the Z18 Crank installed first, the 'CR' of the pistons will be irrelevant to you as it'll be measured from Z18 geometry.

Best way, imo, is gonna be to get the block bored out roughly to standard size, put a standard set of X18 stuff in it without rings or whatever, CC everything and work out where you're gonna end up roughly. At least then you'll know if you need to skim 3 mm off the head or order pistons with a bigger dish than the local chinese fries stuff in.

Then you can take it to 80+mm with fancy pistons etc

[bazil]

Cheers MK, that's what I'll do. I'll get the Z18 stuff and trial fit into the block once it's bored out,

I do appreciate the input from all in this thread :)

Meritlover, I plan to run aftermarket management on this engine so I shall not be using the Bosch AFM, I'll probably use DTA or omex as there are a couple of places up here that can tune it, I don't want to buy a setup that nobody up here can tune.

[cornish]

Are the blocks all essentially the same externally too? I saw the pic below and see that the VXR engines run an equal length shaft setup similar to the big block version and wondered if this may be adaptable to the C16SE block?

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k248/Southdevoncruzer/Picture1630Small.jpg

[MK999]

VXR engines are a different kettle of fish as far as I'm aware, and that's not a box that fits any older smallblocks etc afaik!

[bazil]

Does the 1.6 vxr not use the M32 box as does the 2.0 vxr engine?

[therealnovaboy]

the z18xe appears to use the 1600 rods, with a shorter distance between the gudgeon pin & the crown, than the 1600..

if you kept the 1600 crank & fitted the oversize 1800 piston, you would get really low cr.

also..the accralite website lists a corsa 1800 turbo piston!!!

is it not the other way around with the 1800 having a longer distance between the gudgeon pin and crown? surely the 1800 has a higher block?

This would mean if you used the 1800 crank with the 1600 piston you would get a low comp 1700 that you could skim untill you had a good cr ratio for a turbo.

If this is correct why have I not done this yet?

[bazil]

The 1800 block is a smallblock the same as the 1600,

It has shorter pistons and longer stroke and bore of 80.5 to make it 1800

[therealnovaboy]

The 1800 block is a smallblock the same as the 1600,

It has shorter pistons and longer stroke and bore of 80.5 to make it 1800

its a small block but the block must be taller if it has the same length rods as the 1600 and a longer crank throw.

I thought the bore was 81.6 and stroke was 86.0 ? if you put the 1800 crank in a 1600 the crown of the piston would poke out the block 4.5 mm at top dead centre ( if you used the 1800 piston). With a shorter piston/crank the stroke is the same.

[therealnovaboy]

you would have to use the taller 1800 block and sleave it to 79mm then use the 1600 pistons to have a low comp 1680 cc.

If you use the 1800 piston in a 1600 crank and block youd have a 1700 engine with a high comp ratio. would be an almost square engine and would have to use a 16v head or skim the piston.

[bazil]

80.5 bore and 88.2 stroke with the piston being 24.1 from gudgeon to crown

Your quoting X18XEV figures
We're using X18XE1 or Z18XE figures

[therealnovaboy]

my mistake. i was using c18xe. is it smallblock?

[Andy]

c18xe is bigblock

[bazil]

I couldn't honestly say, but at 86mm stroke its the same as C20XE/LET

As Andy said lol

[therealnovaboy]

Makes sence then as they have a taller block. Ive looked into this before. Im sure there was a guy on mig web doing this.

I think the restriction to getting 200hp will be the 8v head.

Could you not use the 1800 80.5mm piston in the 1600 block to get a low comp 1650cc engine. Then skim the bock to get a suitable compression ratio for a turbo. that must be a better way than using a decomp gasket/plate.

[bazil]

That's a bit of a long cut for a short cut, As I'd need to have the block bored and skimmed plus buy the rods and pistons aswell,

If I were to just lower the CR I would just fit Z16LET pistons and rods and leave the crank and bore standard. This was my original plan but now I'm looking to be a bit more greedy and get as much displacement out the E16 as I can.

I know it's not the normal route to go etc etc but it's just the way I want to go with it.

Plus the fact this is all new to me and I'm loving the learning process :)

[mowgli]

its a small block but the block must be taller if it has the same length rods as the 1600 and a longer crank throw.

I thought the bore was 81.6 and stroke was 86.0 ? if you put the 1800 crank in a 1600 the crown of the piston would poke out the block 4.5 mm at top dead centre ( if you used the 1800 piston). With a shorter piston/crank the stroke is the same.


WRONG

the 1800 pistons are shorter from the gudgeon pin to the crown. by funnily enough about 4.5mm..

they really do use the same rods on the 1600 & 1800 engines, and the blocks are the same height.

[mowgli]

finding a piston catalogue & spending the evening looking at suitable alternatives is another good way of finding a suitable piston...

follow the link on my sig to the KS piston catalogue.. its quite fascinating.

i also have a pdf copy of the previous catalogue which i can email to people