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View Full Version : C14se on 40's.



John
03-08-12, 07:58 PM
as opposed to the oe injection. Discuss. Also to convet it to carbs, could i run a 1.3 head? :)

John
03-08-12, 08:07 PM
what cam so i can run a 1.3 dizzy? also carrier so i can run a mechanical pump?

Balley
03-08-12, 08:53 PM
ast2 cam maybe, and a 1200-1400 cam carrier. Only a guess but can't see why it wouldnt work!

John
03-08-12, 09:09 PM
wonder how well it'd run with a 1.3 carrier with cam, c1.4se head and bottom end?

burgo
03-08-12, 10:27 PM
all the carriers are the same in terms of fitment. i wouldnt bother with a standard cam if you are going for 40's anyway so just get hold of which ever dizzy set up you prefer. Or of course you could run it on megajolt to keep the dispak. Oh and keep the 1.4sr, tis the best one

John
03-08-12, 10:55 PM
You reckon the c14se head would work with a 1.3 cam carrier and up rated cam Luke? Think I'd probably go with a 1.3 carrier just to use the mechanical fuel pump

burgo
03-08-12, 11:01 PM
are you not better off with a proper facet though?

John
03-08-12, 11:03 PM
I do have a facet, but is it really needed if the sport runs ok of the oe pump?

burgo
03-08-12, 11:11 PM
fair point. is the sport a standard pump?

John
03-08-12, 11:35 PM
fair point. is the sport a standard pump?

Yep just a standard pump. Might need a reg?

mk1nova_rich
04-08-12, 08:34 AM
Standard mechanical pump will work fine without a regulator, although feel free to fit one if you wish.

Go for an uprated cam if you can, in the carb carrier. How lairy do you want it?

What ignition setup are you hoping to use?

mk1nova_rich
04-08-12, 08:35 AM
Double post

John
04-08-12, 02:52 PM
Was just going to use the 1.3 set up?

mk1nova_rich
04-08-12, 02:57 PM
I cant see any problems especially if you are sticking with the C14SE head (no changes in CR etc) :)

Stuart
04-08-12, 03:59 PM
John

keep the head and bottom end
Maybe get a carbed cam carrier as it will have the hole bored out for the mechanical pump
either use the mechanical pump or a facet to supply the regulator, 3psi after that ;)
Kent AST2 is the weapon of choice for an 8V (you could goto a Piper BP300 but its a little peaky and annoying imho)
could use a 1.3 dizzy, coil and gin module but imho the red capped 1.4 Carbed setup is marginally better (again imho)

Build and rant the tits off it :)

John
04-08-12, 04:46 PM
Cheers stu, Really fancying this instead of trying to turbo it! Anyone know if you can use the Kent cams with the 1.2/3 dizzy set up though?

Stuart
04-08-12, 04:54 PM
iirc they have 'both' dizzy fitments on the cams... but wise to check.

mowgli
04-08-12, 05:29 PM
kents are both drives.
obviously a round port manifold is needed

John
04-08-12, 05:32 PM
kents are both drives.
obviously a round port manifold is needed

yep, i currently have a 1.3 item, so will have to find a suitable one for the c14 head.

mowgli
04-08-12, 05:34 PM
or ask a nice engineer to mill your ports round

John
04-08-12, 05:50 PM
or ask a nice engineer to mill your ports round


looking at it Mike, the 1.3 port faces are already much bigger than the oe c14se ones.

mowgli
04-08-12, 05:54 PM
oh well, you'd probably be able to sell it on for decent money & you do see them come up on the bay for the 1.6's fairly often.

Stuart
04-08-12, 05:56 PM
ports might be bigger, but iirc the MPI valves are bigger than the carb ones.... Willing to be proved wrong though.

edit, not relevant, need to learn to read posts lol

John
04-08-12, 05:59 PM
ports might be bigger, but iirc the MPI valves are bigger than the carb ones.... Willing to be proved wrong though.

edit, not relevant, need to learn to read posts lol

lol wonder what gains you'd get from flowing the head and port matching the inlet?

mowgli
04-08-12, 06:02 PM
the mpi valves are bigger. bit of port tidying up would probably get 10% more hp alone, so add the 40's, a cam, match the manifold & get them properly set up & you'd be looking at more like 30%

martstdvan
04-08-12, 10:05 PM
i have just finished my C14se on twin 40 weber carbs
i have the Kent AST2 cam and 1300 distributor altho i may yet run the dispac and some form of management
if you have any questions i may be able to help out
:)

John
05-08-12, 09:32 AM
i have just finished my C14se on twin 40 weber carbs
i have the Kent AST2 cam and 1300 distributor altho i may yet run the dispac and some form of management
if you have any questions i may be able to help out
:)

Any pics chap? Are you running the c14se head?

Is it worth running an adjustable pulley with the ast cam?

Stuart
05-08-12, 09:56 AM
Any pics chap? Are you running the c14se head?

Is it worth running an adjustable pulley with the ast cam?


If you can get one cheap then yeah chuck it on, otherwise IMHO they aren't worth the rrp

John
05-08-12, 10:29 AM
Cheers Stu. :)

might have an afternoon in the garage assessing what i've got and what i don't need. Just need to find a car to put it in lol

martstdvan
05-08-12, 06:14 PM
Any pics chap? Are you running the c14se head?

Is it worth running an adjustable pulley with the ast cam?

pm sent

i wouldn't bother with an adjustable pulley to be honest
:)

MK999
05-08-12, 07:11 PM
lol wonder what gains you'd get from flowing the head and port matching the inlet?

Normally about 20-25% on an 8v, but it obviously depends what you start with. I've seen a 70% improvement come out of a triumph head lol

John
05-08-12, 07:13 PM
Might be worth investing in doing that then whilst it's all in bits. :)

MK999
05-08-12, 07:15 PM
Haven't read all the details, but is it possible/worthwhile CR wise to use an E16 head?

Stuart
05-08-12, 07:33 PM
Iirc the two mpi heads were too all intents and purposes were the same. I reckon little gain from moving to a 1600 head

MK999
05-08-12, 08:11 PM
My concern was more that I've got a 1600 8v in my boot and access to a head shop, that may not have been clear lol

John
05-08-12, 09:14 PM
Soooo, here's a 1.3 inlet gasket on the 1.4 mpi head.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/tooleater16v/338462d8.jpg

Feasible?

John
05-08-12, 09:14 PM
Mk999999999 opinions please?

Novasport
05-08-12, 09:16 PM
As Elgan has shown and Edd is in the process of doing it then it must be feasible. You get the best of both worlds, the larger cathedral ports of the 1.3 manifold & the bigger valves of the C14SE head.

The basic castings will more than likely be similar so I don't see any problems with material removal breaking through to anything.

Edd
05-08-12, 09:21 PM
That's what ive done, put gasket on, and used dremmel type tool on it

For me it means I can fit the turbo stuff using a standard 1300 bottom end

Novasport
05-08-12, 09:25 PM
Is there a difference between the E16 & C16 heads?

Andy
05-08-12, 09:25 PM
edd your scum if thats going in a sport

John
05-08-12, 09:26 PM
I think there is rich, but it's small iirc. Best hold fire on the wanted ad then lol

Novasport
05-08-12, 09:29 PM
edd your scum if thats going in a sport

Not here please, take it elsewhere. Back on topic!

mowgli
05-08-12, 09:37 PM
Is there a difference between the E16 & C16 heads?
no.

John
05-08-12, 09:39 PM
I stand corrected lol

mowgli
05-08-12, 09:40 PM
can i put the spanner in the works & point out that the c14se head flows way better than the 1200/1300 heads, so having a round port must be a better shape... the cathedral shape has always confused me anyway... its not a shape that is considered good for anything other than church windows... why not chemical metal the intake? i've seen it done on a racing quad head with ridiculously good results

John
05-08-12, 09:41 PM
No chemical metal for me, would sooner fit the correct manifold.

Novasport
05-08-12, 09:59 PM
no.


They are a different part number on EPC so there must be some differences.

mowgli
05-08-12, 10:08 PM
probably a different supplier.

Edd
05-08-12, 10:11 PM
The difference is that a e16se head has a egr valve and the c16se doesn't

Novasport
05-08-12, 10:13 PM
Thanks Edd.

What kind of an answer is that Mowgli?!? Not your usual knowledgable self!

Stuart
05-08-12, 10:17 PM
can i put the spanner in the works & point out that the c14se head flows way better than the 1200/1300 heads, so having a round port must be a better shape... the cathedral shape has always confused me anyway... its not a shape that is considered good for anything other than church windows... why not chemical metal the intake? i've seen it done on a racing quad head with ridiculously good results

I did a test while at Uni with access to a flow bench where I filled the bottom of a 1200 head port with plasticine.... Low valve lift was marginally worse flow but at higher lift it flowed better than std. There is a pretty comprehensive write up about the round 'straight' port idea in Vizards Ford OHC engine book.

John, just sell the 1300 manifold and buy the 1600 one... its 'only' £100 and im sure you'd get close to that for the 1300 one lol

John
05-08-12, 10:23 PM
Think i might well do that, then get the head flowed.

mowgli
05-08-12, 10:34 PM
What kind of an answer is that Mowgli?!? Not your usual knowledgable self!

OEM's traditionally use a different part no. if they use a different supplier, or change a spec in some minor way...

the only possible difference between the e16 & c16 heads could be in mounting holes for sensors connected to the different efi setups & the dizzy clamp


ps. i used to make a fortune for the tractor dealership i worked for by finding out the old part no.s & checking if they still had stock at the warehouses, then try to get a stock order at a knocked down price.. we used to get cranks that retailed for £650 for around £120, then sell them to other main dealers for £250, or £500 to farmers.. and honestly, nobody else in the trade could work out what we were doing...

we once bought a pallet of turbo engine cranks with turbo spec big end shells for £90 each, took out the turbo shells & sold them for £100 a set, put std shells in the box & sold them as non turbo for £500..., or £800 for the turbo engines(with the turbo shells back in)... just cos i asked someone a quick question about an old part no.

burgo
05-08-12, 11:09 PM
The 1.4 heads have a smaller combustion chamber than the 1.6's therefore a 1.6 head will
Loose you power. As for the port shapes you have to remember the inlet charge moves through the port much
Like water. Therefore taking it out to cathedral shape will make bugger all difference IMO as the difference is at the bottle of the port which doesn't have a massive effect.

Having said that of course If you take a c14se head and open up just the opening of the port so that it the gets smaller you could end up with a Bernoulli effect ad as the inlet charge speeds up it should draw in more. Of course that's nice in theory but heads never do what you want them to.

MK999
06-08-12, 08:38 AM
Mk999999999 opinions please?

port shape looks doable but it depends on a lot more than just the entry, I'll have a look at the E16 I have if it's the same shape and see what I think, looking at that though I'd be tempted to try and keep the round port shape.

Combustion chamber size isn't a huge deal because you can always skim it down to what you need, but if the 1.4 is smaller to start with then you're less likely to run into problems with belt tensioners etc from skimming it too far.

John
11-08-12, 02:53 PM
Ok sooooo.....

I can't use the c14se cam carrier as the breather on the carrier isn't doable. Will have to re think the breather arrangement

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/tooleater16v/ca99039b.jpg

Stuart
11-08-12, 06:02 PM
Get a 1.6 manifold.

John
11-08-12, 07:35 PM
That is a 1.6 round port manifold lol

Edd
11-08-12, 07:59 PM
Could you not blank it off somehow ?

John
11-08-12, 10:20 PM
Could you not blank it off somehow ?

Think I'll just use a 1.2/3 cam carrier and redirect the breather with a 1.2/3 breather box and filter.

Novasport
11-08-12, 10:32 PM
The Sport manifold has a convenient hole for the hose to drop through ;)