View Full Version : My first go at welding....any good or not?
Here is my first go at welding today. The rear bit on the roll cage was sitting as follows.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo361.jpg
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo360.jpg
So I cut up a wok (the metal was really thick) and put a first bit round each side, a few holes but I tested by first hitting with a rubber mallet and then a hammer. It seems ok but I am a novice.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo362.jpg
Then after this had cooled, I put on a second bigger plate. I tested this again incase I had weakedned my first welding by going above and under it.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo365.jpg
The front 4 bits are bolted in but as the back was loose I thought it was clearly unsafe. I am just a novice but i hope this has made it a bit safer. Is it acceptable for strength?
Clearly not beauty!
Matt2107
24-04-12, 05:18 PM
Are you not supposed to distribute the forces by fitting flat end plates rather than welding the cage straight to the arch?
No idea! This was my first go, hopefully better than not being attached at all though.
autoworksnovasport
24-04-12, 05:28 PM
if you are welding the cage in you will need to seam it all the way around you cant just spot it in places yes it will hold but wont be very strong
if you are blowing through then do small overlaped spot welds so you form a seam all the way around
David2005
24-04-12, 05:29 PM
Tbh I don't think you should be having your first go at welding on a rollcage. And no that definately wouldn't be acceptable in my book. Practise more on scrap pieces and then when you become better you can start welding on cars.
paul080803
24-04-12, 05:38 PM
Tbh I don't think you should be having your first go at welding on a rollcage. And no that definately wouldn't be acceptable in my book. Practise more on scrap pieces and then when you become better you can start welding on cars.
Good advice!
A cage needs a foot, ie a plate underneath it. If you get force in the wrong place that will just puncture straight through the wheel arch.
I agree with David, practicing welding on a rollcage is the most ridiculous idea ever? lollol
Calamity Josh
24-04-12, 06:21 PM
i think like everyone else has said mate, also have a look at this thread- http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?184159-Welding-and-a-quot-first-quot-go-with-my-new-one..
I remember asking a man why rollgages have feet ( spreader plates ) he told me that if they are not used and the car rolls the cage will puncture through the shell and probably kill the driver or trap them in the car
The plates are required to spread the load and stress of a roll around a large area so the cage works properly and does not move from its fixed position.
OK thanks, I'll grind them off and put a spreader ( I assume that is a plate on the wheel arch) on first, then weld them to the spreaders.
Regarding my welding, yes I will have to try and improve, thanks for the advice though.
I know a couple of very good welders, who will produce perfect bodywork and structural welds... that will not weld a rollcage. Not the best choice to practice on!
Good on you for having a go though :) that's how I learnedly maybe not on a roll cage but on scrap metal my welds are far from perfect but thier getting there
Go to your scrappys and get some scrap and practice on thick stuff to start with then move onto thinner stuff
BRoadGhost
24-04-12, 10:13 PM
If it's advice you're after on how to rather than a critique, then turn the amps up to 130+ for something 1.5 - 2MM thick, be in a comfortable position so both hands can fully maneuver the torch around at least 180 degrees of the tube, start with little movement to radiate enough heat in one spot then continue with that temperature in a continuous (semi pauses are ok if there's too much heat) motion around as much of the tube as you can; aim for a slightly longer duration on the THICKER metal when making the pools.
You also want 3mm minimum plates for the spreader plates to do it properly.
If it's advice you're after on how to rather than a critique, then turn the amps up to 130+ for something 1.5 - 2MM thick, be in a comfortable position so both hands can fully maneuver the torch around at least 180 degrees of the tube, start with little movement to radiate enough heat in one spot then continue with that temperature in a continuous (semi pauses are ok if there's too much heat) motion around as much of the tube as you can; aim for a slightly longer duration on the THICKER metal when making the pools.
Thanks, I'll have a go the next few days with some practice on scrap first. I had the welder on low and the wire on slow as I thought it made it all slower for me. Shows how much I don't know!
Thicker stuff = higher amps
autoworksnovasport
24-04-12, 11:11 PM
sorry i should have mentioned spreader plates aswell :(
Todd149
24-04-12, 11:24 PM
learning how to weld is hard i started when i was 10 and am now 16 and got an NVQ L2 in it use scrap bits about 3mm to start with and u need to learn howto get the touch angle right ect.. good luck :)
are you aware of how lethal a poor fitted cage is? its for this reason i paid £900 for mine
GRUNT 16V
25-04-12, 10:38 AM
WTF WELDING PIGEON IS WATCHING YOU !!!!!!!http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGLesSb7CEpHNADy1vPpmoNI7aVpGiO pwMcDC0NkfKpOfPpglc9A
practise on scrap stuff, or mot patchwork - definitely not a roll cage! as said above a cage needs a good standard seam weld and spreader plates putting under the cage feet to be safe.
not meaning to sound harsh but if you did have a big off with the cage like that it would just either snap the welds and go god knows where in the car or push through the wheel arch and roof would come in as if you had no cage.
Thanks for the advice and the point is taken.
I have had a few more goes on bits of metal. Here is a practice run putting a plate to patch up a pretend hole. I have 2 5p size holes on my mini cooper floor. Has my welding improved enough for this sort of work (I am now well aware it's not good enough for the cage!). I haven't ground it down or anything, just left it rough so it's at it's worst, is it strong enough do you think?
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo3712.jpg
Also will a few spots on a nut that is part of the rosejoint gear linkage be enough to stop it from slackening off? It does have to deal with some stress during gear changes.
autoworksnovasport
27-04-12, 08:41 PM
your using gasless arnt you
yeah, just a wee mig gasless welder.
It does look like gasless which is what I use it's not te best but it does work
You need to have a steady run, lean your elbows on something when welding
When you start welding wait for the pool to start them move slightly, keep doing that
Thinner metal burns through quicker than thick metal so adjust your speed to suit
My welding isn't perfect but it's getting better
Practice makes perfect though and the only way to learn is practice
Good on you for trying though everyone has to start somewhere
autoworksnovasport
27-04-12, 08:56 PM
can tell by the finish your getting
instead of doing runs do small spots 1-2 secounds at a time overlaping slightly each time to form your run
Thanks, is this good enough to attempt the floor repairs or do i need more practice to get a smoother finish?
autoworksnovasport
27-04-12, 09:12 PM
id practice a bit more first ;)
fair point! Well I have more ideas and advice here from folk which is great, I'll practice more and experiment with ideas.
autoworksnovasport
27-04-12, 09:17 PM
honestly do what ive said and you wont got wrong
turbojolt
27-04-12, 09:25 PM
what do/have you done as a living mate just out of intrest as with my very minimal amount of welding i find having a critical eye is key
what do/have you done as a living mate just out of intrest as with my very minimal amount of welding i find having a critical eye is key
Office work, it is a change from work to attempt practical stuff!
Heres a picture of another weld i did tonight, slightly better at the right hand side hopefully?
I will have more practice tomorrow and put the good advice to use.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo370.jpg
scott.parker
27-04-12, 09:38 PM
Read through my thread i started as there's info and proof of how quickly you can learn, as IMO Ive improved a lot in a matter of days!
Watch vids from you tube is the best thing, I'll find the one's i watched..
Right as annoying as the guys yank accent is, these vids are back to very basic and will explain it all, dont skip just learn mate...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzBGZaS1apw
Then watch this after.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMdQT-eswYY&feature=relmfu
The 2nd vid will help you understand lots IMO, as he makes it all very clear..
Scott
autoworksnovasport
27-04-12, 09:39 PM
when the cream sh*t starts to appear stop wire brush it and then carry on
turbojolt
27-04-12, 09:59 PM
your moving it about and rushing it to much, get some scrap plate and weld it together take it slow whats the rush
the metal i used is too thin, I keep blowing through
autoworksnovasport
27-04-12, 10:14 PM
because your trying to do runs!!
autoworksnovasport
27-04-12, 10:16 PM
:thumb:
oooooooooooooo like that but slightly overlapping is what autoworks is meaning
scott.parker
27-04-12, 11:10 PM
Just watch them vids i linked you, it will all make much better sense then..
Scott
I have watched the vids Scott, they are good.
I just wondered if my wire at 0.9mm is the right one to be using for thin (vauxhall) metal?
your using gasless so thats the smallest you can go
24sevenslacker
02-05-12, 01:09 PM
If your welding thin stuff just do small runs, or even pulse to keep the metal cool and stop it blowing through. Play about with the amps and wire feed (assuming your using mig) too, sometimes turning the amps and feed down can keep the metal cool and give a better weld. Try and keep a slow steady travel pace too. Its easy once you have the hang of it. Its vertical and overhead when it starts to get hard
autoworksnovasport
02-05-12, 01:17 PM
keep the metal cool and give a better weld.
:confused:
24sevenslacker
02-05-12, 01:37 PM
:confused:
If the metal gets a lot of heat into it it will warp, burn through and just get harder to weld. So keeping it as cool as possible helps
brainsnova
02-05-12, 01:40 PM
I would get a gas welder setup and have structural stuff done by a professional and stick to plates to patch holes until your confident to tackle bigger jobs.
If your welding thin stuff just do small runs, or even pulse to keep the metal cool and stop it blowing through. Play about with the amps and wire feed (assuming your using mig) too, sometimes turning the amps and feed down can keep the metal cool and give a better weld. Try and keep a slow steady travel pace too. Its easy once you have the hang of it. Its vertical and overhead when it starts to get hard
i love lying under the nova welding away getting burnt to a crisp lol
Jon_nova1
02-05-12, 04:33 PM
In the first image you posted it looks like you have near enough the right setting, the wire speed may be a little low, which is why it would be burning through, turn the wire feed up a touch while keeping the weld the same thickness, this would mean you have to weld quicker so will burn through less, also i can see a gap between the two pieces of steel your trying to weld together, this never works on thin steel so tack the steel where they meet and use a hammer to make sure the steel is touching all the way around
as someone has said, when welding on thin steel you want to take your time and allow cooling time, the steel will warp, if the setting is right then you should be able to do around an inch of weld before it burns through, allow it to cool, maybe weld somewhere else or a different joint.
I don't know what happened in the last pic, it looks like you have either tried to fill a hole with weld or gone over a weld numerous times, if you are then put aluminium or copper behind it as this won't get welded, doing this behind thin panels will also stop the welder blowing through as easily, again the wire feed looks a little too low (only a touch) also make sure the area your welding is clean, you will get a much better weld and you won't get bits of mig wire around your welds....which could be why your wire feed is a little low.
Your welding angle isn't too bad towards the end of the second image, thats why its come out better than the rest of the weld, but when you continue your run knock the black crap off the top of the weld if it comes off and start welding from the middle of the circle that was left from the last weld, im only saying that because it will come out better than what it is at the moment and with time you will figure out where is best to restart your run.
If you have a mask that goes on your head rather than a held one, steady the welding gun with your free hand on the rubber part of the swan neck (the rubber pipe that the shroud connects to)
Other than that its a very good effort for a first attempt, i would try and get some thicker steel 6MM maybe and practice welding on that.
Oh one more thing to note is if you have the welding gun close to the steel the welds will be more sunken as it will penetrate more and further away the weld will be raised as it will penetrate less, try and keep the gun the same distance from your work piece and if the weld starts sinking (for example the steel is weaker there) move the gun slightly away from the piece until the weld sits at a uniform height, do not adjust the speed of your welding when the height changes, instead change the distance from the piece you are welding
24sevenslacker
02-05-12, 05:50 PM
Well explained
Thanks everyone for all the advice, I have now had another go at putting a plate on, trying to take heed of the advice, I spotted it, went back and tried to fill in using the spots. The patch is just under an inch. I lowered the amps and the wire feed and although it is nowhere near professional, I am far happier with it, it didn't blow through and I think the weld itself is largely improved.
Sorry the pic is not great, and I have grinded it a bit before I rememebered to take a picture.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo376.jpg
Is this good enough for normal bodywork/mot repairs yet or am I still rubbish!?
It the weld strong, can you pull the plates apart... If you cant then it's strong enough. As panel work is only spot welded.
I put a screw driver to the other side and tried to hammer them apart, didn't move at all (apart from the metal bent in the middle).
I think I may have a go of the two wee holes in the cooper floor.....
Two other questions,
Earthing...is it nessecary to take paint of a good bit of the car to earth or, if the battery is completely disconnected, will it cause any harm to use the earth or a clean bit of suspension that is attached to the body?
Once I have done the cooper floor, that will be all my welding for the moment, I have a more experienced guy coming round for the rear of the roll cage next week, storing the welder... I have a shelf where it would sit neatly out of my way on it's side. I assume this will do no harm.
Should be strong enough.
The ground/earth needs to be the cleanest metal possible.
Alot of things are rubber mounted so the metal in it isnt the best ground/earth. So your best of going to bodywork.
I will be fine anyway its sat.
Jon_nova1
03-05-12, 09:52 PM
yes your welding is good enough for MOT standards judging by the image, of course its hard to see how good the weld is but aslong as it doesn't sit ridiculously proud its good, its also hard to tell just how wide the weld is, a weld upto 5MM wide would easily be sufficent for 1-3MM steel and it would make it look tidier (if it needs to)
you can use any of the car as earth, obviously putting it on something that has a rubber bush around it wouldn't help so i wouldn't suggest the suspension unless your welding on the suspension. If your welding on the main chassis then an earth anywhere on the main chassis is fine and yes you can just clamp it to the negative cable with the battery disconnected as the power thats going throught the welder won't be enough to overload the negative cable.
You can store the welder however you want to aslong as its not where its going to get wet, if it gets wet you can let it dry but it will make the wire rusty so won't feed very well, also always have the welder upright when your using it if you don't then the overheat protection won't be able to sense the heat and you will melt your wires in the welder.
I am very pleased to see that i have made some improvement with the advice and practice. I am quite aware I am not great but if I can at least do some patches etc then that's a good enough place for me to start just now, thanks again to everyone for their advice, appreciated as always.
Once it's ground off and painted/sealed up it will look fine dude.
Jon_nova1
03-05-12, 10:08 PM
Theres nothing incredibly wrong with your welding, its better than some welding i've seen garages do for MOT's, we get college work experience people coming into our work and i'm always the one that gives them the welding gun and say try this lol if someone walked in and could do that straight away i'd be shocked.
Don't mistake me as putting you down, quite simply i do this 5 days a week and you want to learn. I have no problem telling you every last detail of what could be done better, its entirely upto you what information you take away with you and decide to use, but atleast if you wonder why somethings not working right its all there for you to look over. All it will really takes from you now is practice, it won't take long before its the welder/wire that's the worst performing part of your welds ;)
I think it will be a while before it's the wleder/wire that's the weakest link! But thanks I appreciate what you said. Without the advice from everyone here I would probably still be doing what I put in the first pic, big gaps and all, and thinking it was fine.
24sevenslacker
04-05-12, 03:39 PM
you will be welding like this soon lol
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/392537_10150863631178708_502823707_11897524_784334 143_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/301843_10150863640098708_502823707_11897531_309475 896_n.jpg
Well the other day I thought I'd prepare the cage for the welder to weld in the back bits properly. I needed to put in 4 bolts, 1 missing from each spreader (two middle and two front).
The welding for the middle bit to the spreaders was very neat looking. clearly by someone better than me. Putting the bolts through the holes were just a fraction too small, I then broke the drill bit so took an old bolt and decided to just hammer it through, bad technique I know.
Well I was so glad I did, look at what happened to the middle and possibly most inportant foot with some hammering....
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo379.jpg
Well with some thought I split it properly and decided to have a try myself, the metal was thick so turned the amps to full and wire speed to fairly fast, started as deep as I could and then built up layers, this was so easy after the mini floor as there was just no sign of burning through! I then also thought to put a little box section where the slope of the floor is, then with the bolts etc it should hopefully be fairly strong. I couldn't get in to much of it before or after with the grinder so had to scrape the paint with a screw driver and burn it.
Anyway here is my end result before I put the bolts etc back in.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo380.jpg
Not pretty but I have been hammering it with all my might and it is at least stronger than before although I thought it was fine and the previous welder had made it pretty!
Although the otther side was ok, I welded over and heated up the same bits and put the wee box section in too.
http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/69marc/Photo381.jpg
I'll get the other guy to check it when he does the back.
Is it welded straight to the floor? Or have you put a plate on the floor?
BRoadGhost
10-05-12, 08:58 PM
You wont get anywhere welding into paint; it affects the pools greatly.
you will be welding like this soon lol
I doubt it, that's tigged lol
Is it welded straight to the floor? Or have you put a plate on the floor?
The box section has a base but i was wary welding on the floor as i didn't want to weaken the floor metal. You know how good vauxhall floors are.
You wont get anywhere welding into paint; it affects the pools greatly.
OK, so no good then, i couldn't figure out how to grind the inner bits, with the seats etc removed I would be able to get abit more access but I assumed that any paint I couldn't get ground/scraped would burn?
The actual broken bit I did get grounded as I removed the foot, ground it and then sliding the grinder in under the bit of cage ground it. I didn't intend on doing any cage welding after the advice earlier in this thread but, seeing what looked like a professional job actually broke......that was scarey, if I had rolled the car that spreader could have snapped off immediately, bringing the bar into my head.
But from what you said it probably isn't much better?
The box section has a base but i was wary welding on the floor as i didn't want to weaken the floor metal. You know how good vauxhall floors are.
That's why you put a thick plate on the floor, for the cage to stand on.... So you kinda did?
That's why you put a thick plate on the floor, for the cage to stand on.... So you kinda did?
Not overly thick (the plate, I am) , just a plate so kinda did? I though that the foot acted as the plate, i just put a base on the box section to give the floor bit a 2nd skin as I was putting the box bit in anyway.
Its best to plate it as Nova floor pans arnt that thick. Sounds like there's some metal in there. Sure you'll be ok.
Jon_nova1
10-05-12, 11:03 PM
I doubt it, that's tigged lol
Tigged stainless steel too, you'd have to be a complete fail at welding not to make that look neat lol
Tigged stainless steel too, you'd have to be a complete fail at welding not to make that look neat lol
challenge accepted
Its best to plate it as Nova floor pans arnt that thick. Sounds like there's some metal in there. Sure you'll be ok.
Thanks but hopefully I'll never find out!
Although my weldings not great yet I think it's better than what the previous guy did.
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