View Full Version : Turbocharger vs Supercharger discussion thread!
Danb1987
08-04-12, 06:03 PM
Been thinking about this since seeing jays Astra mk2 8vt at pvs last year.
I know every engines different but with the c20ne it seems possible to get circa 180-200bhp on standard internals and management.
It also seems that even thow a turbo conversion should be harder all the parts are available off the shelf....
So what are the pros and cons of turbo charging as to supercharging?
Would fitting a supercharger just be like having a 200bhp car that makes an angry wasp noise as aposed to a turbo that builds up and then chucks you into the seat?
In regards to baxters supercharged 1600 is the hardest thing to do find a suitable place to mount the charger?
On the 8v there seems to be plenty of room in the bay to mount one infont of the engine above the manifold?
supercharger will give you boost from idle, but it requires an engine spec to produce more power, as some is consumed in spinning the supercharger. Turbo is more efficient and what you put in your get out, but has lag.
That's pretty much it, packaging depends on engine but an 8v Nova bay will accomodate either, both will need some sort of management/fuelling adjustment.
supercharger will give you boost from idle, but it requires an engine spec to produce more power, as some is consumed in spinning the supercharger. Turbo is more efficient and what you put in your get out, but has lag.
That's pretty much it, packaging depends on engine but an 8v Nova bay will accomodate either, both will need some sort of management/fuelling adjustment.
You make it sound like a turbo provides 'free' power lol. It's not, but needs less than an s/c.
As a rough example to make 250bhp at the fly on a z22se you need to make 280bhp at the crank as the hEaton costs 30bhp to compress that air.
Fuelling strategy for mechanical boost or exhaust boost is largely the same.
Danb1987
08-04-12, 06:49 PM
According to Vaux-extreme the standard ecu and engine is good for 200bhp... Then it's megasquirt everyone seems to use,
All I was thinking with the supercharger is If it's easily mounted then that would be nearly it? Obviously rrfpr etc
Where as a turbo conversion would involve tapping the sump finding an oil feed and all the other bits..
Swings and roundabouts as a rotrex is a grand +bits lol.
Megasquirt is used as it appears cheap and DIY, but something like gotech from jamsport is as cheap and betterer and retains more value 2nd hand etc.
You make it sound like a turbo provides 'free' power lol. It's not, but needs less than an s/c.
Theoretically it does lol obviously in reality you don't quite get the same exhaust velocity, and as well as cam profiles being compromised means your exhaust scavenging is less, but there's little to no extra power produced that gets wasted like a charger.
Most superchargers would need an oil feed as well I'd imagine? I know a G-lader does at least. Not sure on eaton, think they might actually be 'dry' ball bearings?
Heatons have an oil fill in them, but it's enclosed etc.
To get the exhaust gas out via the restriction that is the turbine, the crank has to push the gas harder, thus making more loss than in an 'Na' setup, but the compression of fresh air more than makes up for that.
Danb1987
08-04-12, 07:06 PM
Didn't think about it like that, I know the rotrex chargers come with an oils kit as such,
Unsure on the eaton ones thow I was looking into a mini charger e45, I could get it for £100, then it seems the mount would be the hardest thing,
How would you adapt a pulley to run it, something along the lines of getting a pulley welded onto an existing pulley?
The gotech system is what you can get off mig isn't it?
Not clued up at all on aftermarket ecus. Are they pretty much all the same but vary in features and price?
turbojolt
08-04-12, 07:27 PM
Throttle bodies.
Didn't think about it like that, I know the rotrex chargers come with an oils kit as such,
Unsure on the eaton ones thow I was looking into a mini charger e45, I could get it for £100, then it seems the mount would be the hardest thing,
How would you adapt a pulley to run it, something along the lines of getting a pulley welded onto an existing pulley?
The gotech system is what you can get off mig isn't it?
Not clued up at all on aftermarket ecus. Are they pretty much all the same but vary in features and price?
No idea about mig and gotech, as I've not logged in for over a year lol
Most aftermarket ecua's are the same when in the same price brackets, so it's really down to who you are having to do the calibration.
Danb1987
08-04-12, 08:19 PM
I'm a long way off going into aftermarket ecus yet to be fair!
I don't know locally who maps ecus "properly" round my way, probably nobles but they get bad press.
In regards to the supercharger thow... Can you feel the boost, the only way I can put it is like this...
1.0 Corsa with scharger 130bhp
1.8 Sri Corsa 130bhp
Would they feel the same power and drive wise just one sounds awesome?
1.0 Corsa turbo 130bhp
Set off..... Whine... Boost change gear Psssst and away?
Not very good with words lol iv never been in a supercharged car so I don't get what there like apart from noise.
Avoid the older versions of GoTech, due to shockingly unfriendly software.
the thing about a c20ne is that it is a close cousin to the c20get, or lt3 that was produced in large numbers in the states & stuck in pontiac sunbirds etc...
stuff is available on the net for these.
trying to supercharge one will involve a lot of prototyping, and tbh, in a nova with a bigblock, you have fun getting pulleys to fit at the best of times..
the cooper eaton does have one really useful feature, an output drive for the mini's water pump.. ppc mag stuck a jap alternator on their xflow project engine.... you will still need an intercooler, as the blades will still get the air warm.
its swings & roundabouts really
If you are going to use a 2 litre and a turbo just fit a LET, cheaper than converting a NE to the same power level and probably more reliable.
Sounds like you only want either of these conversions just to be different.
lets are getting rarer, and when the yanks produce an engine, it has to be bombproof for about 300,000 miles, the c20get is a seriously capable powerplant.
If you are going to use a 2 litre and a turbo just fit a LET, cheaper than converting a NE to the same power level and probably more reliable.
Sounds like you only want either of these conversions just to be different.
What he said lol
Smallblock with some sort of charger would be epic, mechanical charging of a big block would be novelty value over the cheap and simple let route
stu, cheap????
when did a decent LET become cheap??
ok, there are a fair few z20LETs appearing, so use these by all means
baxters coopered c16xe was only let down by haste/roughness/total lack of understanding of pulley gearing, it could have been something quite impressive if nick had taken a little more time on the layout.
Thought he used a rotrex?
I'd not use a cooper charger on anything bigger than a 1.6 as its on it's limits there, funnily enough.
So for a sensible size charger for a 2.0 engine would cost a grand on its own, plus base engine (and inevitable rebuild).... That instantly makes buying a let and rebuilding that would cost less and be the similar net effect.
baxter had a cooper one.. i took a pic of it... it scared me.
the next step up is the merc charger.. they are cheap enough on the bay..
Personally, i would go for the supercharged 1.6 after some extensive research into it. Read books, specs etc.
Otherwise i would go LET personally, orrrrr just fit this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Supercharger-Kit-Universal-Fit-/180845180765?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a1b36775d#ht_1328wt_1189
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-Supercharger-Kit-Universal-Fit-/180845180765?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a1b36775d#ht_1328wt_1189
Ask seller a question!
"Hi,
My 2.0 16v N/A is already pulling around 400cfm at 29 inches H2O, would this kit be able to keep up with such a demand to produce a positive pressure?"
:d
ahh the boat bilge pump... capable of producing 1psi above atmossheric to stop grp hulls from leaking.......
Ask seller a question!
"Hi,
My 2.0 16v N/A is already pulling around 400cfm at 29 inches H2O, would this kit be able to keep up with such a demand to produce a positive pressure?"
:d
Think there minds might explode. Would love to interview there 'techie' for the company and grill him with hideous questions lol
connor. please do, it would be fascinating for your college to study one........
I would if i wasnt im final leg of my uni studies, with 6 assignments to do and 5 weeks to do them :(
Might send a cheeky email pretending to be a clueless newbie to automotive, and ask what the benefits are as i want to use one for my 1st year automotive project to show the biggest gains for a N/A without charging it.
Danb1987
09-04-12, 03:49 PM
Looking at most parts available to turbo the ne that's the route il end up going down I think,
I want to get the engine in first thow so I can get back on the road with it lol lol
You can pretty much buy bolt on parts to turbo an ne, plenty if info on Vaux extreme about them,
Just thought the s/charger would be something "different" but it looks complicated,
Lee on mig has supercharged his Astra 1600? and that works well so baxters conversion should have worked mint lol
turbojolt
09-04-12, 04:09 PM
They wary you can run upto 10psi on the standard engine management and internals should make for a fun car wouldn't mind trying to do it myself for a laugh
I have a reply on the electric superchargers :d
"hi im not to sure but i will ask the manufacturer of them to see what they say many thanks"
My reply:
"Great, thanks, if you could get a compressor map that'd be even better"
lol ^^ brilliant cant wait for the reply
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