Getting an XE to 250bhp on carbs?

[slammed saloon]

Hi guys,
i've frequented this forum for the past 8 years on and off as i had 3 (yes 3!) nova saloons when i was 18. I had a caterham in at work a while ago for a few minor bits and pieces. It is a very well specced car, sccr box, dry sumped, t45's etc and the owner doesn't know much about the engine apart from the fact that its 250bhp. He bought the car brand new from caterham 17 years ago and its still imaculate now and stupidly fast, revs off the clock at 8500rpm. My real question is what would be involved ion getting an xe to this level of power on carbs?

Cheers :)

[Edd]

lots and lots of cash lol

[slammed saloon]

haha i realise that Edd but can anyone provide a more indepth answer?

[Bubba]

carbs or TBs?

[Gareth_C]

If you want a genuine 250bhp then your talking in excess of 10k your better off buying an engine from a company called JRE I'm at about 260ish when the final mapp is done and that's 12k.
Look at my project thread for a rough guide to parts.

[slammed saloon]

Gareth i've been looking through your thread, some awesome work gone into that car its a credit to you! The difference being this engine was on carbs and not throttle bodies.

[Mike]

John Reid (JRE) has got a couple of engines for sale on eBay at the minute. A 240ish horse 2.0XE & a 280ish 2.4XE

Prices start at £10k.

IMHO I wouldnt bother with carbs if your aiming for that kinda power. They will severly hamper your efforts.

[bazil]

That's a lot of dosh for under 300bhp,

[Mike]

That's a lot of dosh for under 300bhp,

Worth every penny to the right people though :thumb: being N/A & universal fitting pretty much.

[slammed saloon]

I know how much it costs to get to that power i was just intrigued to find out what it involves. i'e what level of head work/pistons/ rods etc

[bazil]

Worth every penny to the right people though :thumb: being N/A & universal fitting pretty much.

Totaly agree,

If I were to spend silly money on a XE I'd start with an alloy block, 19 KG's lighter and can be mounted either way,

[Mike]

I know how much it costs to get to that power i was just intrigued to find out what it involves. i'e what level of head work/pistons/ rods etc

Forged pistons, H section rods, overbore + shorter rods + 2.4 crank if going 2.4cc (JRE 2.4 crank is £2k+vat) stupidly enourmously worked head (about £800~1k worth) larger valves, solid lifters, lairy cams, dry sump setup, proper exhaust manifold & system, aftermarket management (£800?) DTH bodies + inlet (1800++) to name just a few parts.

And then to complete the package £2500+ of SCCR & LSD.

[Gareth_C]

I might be wrong here but I didn't think you could achieve 250 properly on carbs ideally you need throttle bodies mate as said before. If you want a parts list pretty much the same as mine. You might get away with +1mm valves if your lucky. Mike gas just about summed it up except I don't think the 2.4 is worth doing as you can get what you need on a 2.1

[Mike]

2.4 stroker definetly (IMO) isnt worth doing really. Extra outlay for return power is minimal if you ask me.

[philip]

you can just about see 250bhp, but would need largest chokes you could fit + obv jets etc

jre's engines are a nice bit of kit but having seen a home built xe and a jre xe the home built one made more power and same rollers as the jre and was ALOT more torquey and nicer to drive and alot faster on the stages (2 friends had grp 4 mk2 escorts)...JRE port bores his heads parrallel too 28mm which requires the underside of inlet to be pad welded as it breaks through on the runners into the throat...again building the engine for peak revs..tend to be for the 300bhp circa engines.

standard early crank will see 260bhp or so and near 9k rpm. aroow rods, high comp omegas. to be honest the bottom end wouldnt be far off between a 230-270bhp engine really...may go for a longer rod and short slipper piston for powe rup to 300bhp though to aid in revs and less stress on components.

id say its more down to head and cam choice. ive seen 190bhp@wheels in a mates westy i built on 270newmans, where as ive only seen 187@wheels in a mates mini i built engine for on solids, QED 450 cams, double springs etc....but westy had r1 carbs and tle exhaust, the mini had used 450 cams(lad building on budget) own blackbird tb set up and own ex manifold made up...BIG key to getting power from the XE imo.

headwise, is go for +1mm and 27mm port bore to see anything up to 270bhp genuine, then maybe piper double springs and caps, arrow solids, then something around 296dur, 11.8-12.2mm lift or so with about 12:1cr?

[Gareth_C]

So are you saying you could fit a stanard crank and it would take a constant hammering upto 9K????

[philip]

i wouldnt say it would last at 9k but they hold 8.5k easy. and tbh unless really competing where need the revs you dont need any more than 8.5k in real world. my mates escort peaked at 7.6k 228@wheels.

the westy i built made 225@fly at only 6.5k, where as an xe in a lad escort week after made about 235bhp, dry sumped, wilder cams etc at 8.3k....overall the lad with the escort gained 7bhp at the wheel more at nearly 2k rpm higher...bit of a waste tbh and the engine cost alot more than what it would be to build the westy one again thats for sure. everyone raves on about revs and peak power....my mates escort used to wipe the floor with the 'big power' cars in the woods, tarmac etc because it would go at low revs and not come on cam til about 5k+.

[waggygsi]

theres a boy up hear got a 2.4 350bhp xe in his kadette rally car tb went like stink rallys in the btrda a think tho

[Stuart]

Won't 45's be useless up there and 48's the better option..... Well tb's being the proper option lol

[Angus Closier]

theres a boy up hear got a 2.4 350bhp xe in his kadette rally car tb went like stink rallys in the btrda a think tho

Really :tard:

Would love to see that.

[slammed saloon]

Thanks for the input Phillip sounds like you know your stuff!

[philip]

iv built quite a few nippy xes and in touch with some very reputable engine builders etc, so all helps:D

id definately love to see a genuine 350bhp xe, that takes so mega doing. i know JRE were developing a 2.5xe, but rumours are its impossible to achieve and 2.4 is the maximum possible.

[Stuart]

For the faff you might as well fit a b207 2.0 in and rev the ass off it... I know the yanks have pulled 10k rpm from a destroked z22se relation

[waggygsi]

Really :tard:

Would love to see that.
does most of his rallying in the btrda but its deff over the 300bhp mark.
alan mcdowell is the fellas name owns aldosport or something

[nova_mike]

Hi ben with questions like that it sounds like your about to start building one lol

You sound pretty much spot on with that spec philip, im expecting to see genuine 240 + and 175/180 ft/lb at the fly from a similar spec motor im having built at the mo, 88mm omega's, arrow rods, +1mm valves major head reworking and a set of 300 dur on solids, roller barrel tb's and euro 2 efi technolegy management (http://www.obr.uk.com/efi_engine_mngt.html) dry sumped ect...

its just my opinion but i would never buy a jre engine for a few reasons i know a fair few that have given up prematurely and had a good freind take his xe there to be setup only to blow the headgasket due to det instead of curing the problem they did the hg on it and mapped around the det and blambed it on to high cr, fitted it in his westfield only for it to blow again, so checked cr and it was 12:1 so it was built back up again and traced problem to injectors wrong sized and faulty frp! was running lean under load as well as that they said it was around 240bhp at the wheels, when he phoned john reid up for advice and it to be remapped he said sell your motor and buy on of mine as a fix lol

and tho they quote those high power figure's it would be interesting to see them against a gen 240-250 bhp at fly on the stage

If you buy the right parts from the right place (philip maybe) build it yourself and the take it to a good mapper you cant go wrong

[slammed saloon]

HA don't worry Mike i won't be attemtpting that any time soon i just didn't think you could get to 250bhp on carbs but the bloke with that caterham is adament thats what his is

[mowgli]

after al this debate, can i stick my oar in & say its probably making 210-220hp if its lucky, and if its 17 years old probably less than that....

[slammed saloon]

Yeah the thought did cross my mind. It is fast as hell which makes me think it may be a touch more but then again it probably only weighs 500 kg if not less

[philip]

Jre is abit like a lad local to me known as john 'one lap' hardman, I went to see about a 16xe dlywheel off him and he seemed abit pissed when I asked why he had an x16 head on an engine and not. C16, he didn't seem to know the inlet were already larger on the c16, but to have cams or special ex manifold, etc you have to buy an engine, expect I've seen him charge new prices for parts and fit 2nd hand or charge for parts and not git at all. One mates engine lasted 18minutes before HG went and made a right mess of the head.


A 240-250bhp xe is quick in the right car. One lad I was speaking to last year bought a toovey engine purely to see what was in it as the hot rod cars were quick with his engines, turned out all the parts you can buy off the shelf, it was the amount of money that went into suspension setup that made his cars quicker.

Paying for a name is what a lot of ppl do imo

[nova_mike]

Jre is abit like a lad local to me known as john 'one lap' hardman, I went to see about a 16xe dlywheel off him and he seemed abit pissed when I asked why he had an x16 head on an engine and not. C16, he didn't seem to know the inlet were already larger on the c16, but to have cams or special ex manifold, etc you have to buy an engine, expect I've seen him charge new prices for parts and fit 2nd hand or charge for parts and not git at all. One mates engine lasted 18minutes before HG went and made a right mess of the head.


A 240-250bhp xe is quick in the right car. One lad I was speaking to last year bought a toovey engine purely to see what was in it as the hot rod cars were quick with his engines, turned out all the parts you can buy off the shelf, it was the amount of money that went into suspension setup that made his cars quicker.

Paying for a name is what a lot of ppl do imo

Funny enough i have heard the same regarding the second hand parts bit naughty really.

Who's is it ben? who built the motor originaly?

[Mike]

I know the guys at Toovey Road & Race pretty well, there only up the road from my house (well, 3 mile up the road lol )

[nova_mike]

I know the guys at Toovey Road & Race pretty well, there only up the road from my house (well, 3 mile up the road lol )

Know someone with a toovey top spec xe in his escort and recons they are bang on, well priced and really helpfull

Just read first post again and realised you said it was built in 1995! has it had major work done or had it dyno'ed since then? 250bhp for 95 would of been big power so i would be sceptical about it, I remeber when i had my first xe nova standard and it felt faster than my 220bhp mk2 astra turbo like you say being a light car may make you think it feels more powerfull than it is.

[philip]

I'm not slating toovey, just passing on what I've been told by people that his hot rod cars are quicker due to proper chassis tuning not purely down the a powerful engine. And the engine components are easily available. With a decent manual or just common sense with the right parts there's no reason why someone at home could potentially save 100's or even 1000s on paying a companies to assemble. I couldn't belive clark motorsport charged 1200+vat to assemble an xe!

[mowgli]

philip, there is a generation of people that don't know how to put an engine together...

there are also people with money who go rallying/racing etc, and won't admit they need tuition on how to drive fast, so they convince themselves that it must be down to needing more power, and if so&so has an engine from a certain tuner & is winning, then they simply must have one the same.

[philip]

Couldn't agree more, there are a lot of people who go off theories rather than hands on/physical ly doing or done the job. People who chase big figures imo are the ones who can't drive properly. My mates mk2escort makes 228@wheels and that's beaten some of the more powerful xes that some builders think they need to absolutely scream when its the mid range people should be aiming for...well depending on use, track, tarmac, forest, circuit etc as my mates peaks 7.6k iirc where most want them peaking 8.5-9k, even though lose so much low down

[mowgli]

a friend was racing in stock hatch, and spent £4k on a 'std' peugeot 205 engine with allegedly 140hp...yet never got the concept of not outbraking yourself into every bend, passing 6 cars & then sitting off line as they all pass you again... i was told that by robbie kerr (google great lost talents in motor racing) who was also his mate..

[nova_mike]

philip, there is a generation of people that don't know how to put an engine together...

there are also people with money who go rallying/racing etc, and won't admit they need tuition on how to drive fast, so they convince themselves that it must be down to needing more power, and if so&so has an engine from a certain tuner & is winning, then they simply must have one the same.

Agree with that mowgli but for a lot of people its more having the tooling and experience to build such a motor, you cant just put it together in your garden shed, i know you don't mean it like that but there is a lot to consider when building the right motor for you rather than building a motor and getting it mapped by a chap down the road with a bit of paper that say's xxxbhp, a lot of engine builders will build it so that you get a mass of power come in at say 4k so it feels really quick and makes good power figures but to use that engine in real life the power will just not be when you need it.

Didn't think you were slating him philip i know what you mean, like you say people see a car winning classes and instantly dismiss the fact that they could be a better driver or that there car is set up really well. It must be that there engine has more power!