View Full Version : Best oil for run in?
Nova_Tek
13-10-11, 09:04 PM
Need info on what the best oil is to use whilst running in the LET after rebuild, and approx. how many miles to do with this oil before a change to the usual 10w40 semi-syn?
:thumb:
the same stuff you plan to use in it, then 500 miles later, drain it...
15W-40 Pure Mineral, Synthetics won't allow rings etc to bed in properly. 500 miles ish as above. I'd run fully synth in it as the running oil myself though, turbo's just cook any mineral in the semi, and turn it to water in my experience.
i'll await a lot of flak heading in from a certain forum here, but i think that with the sort of materials & tolerances that these engines were designed & built with, i think that running in is only used these days to make sure the cheque has cleared....
we run big diesel stuff, when it gets rebuilt, or even when new, it gets put straight to work.. we buy stihl saws & honda engined plant, and it gets used straight away at full power.....ok, we give stuff an early 1st service, but apart from that, it works for a living. and production car engines arwe the same, what is the gm service interval on a LET, 4500miles on 10w40 multigrade????.
a rebuild does allow for more chance of contamination & swarf than a new build (engine plants are like operating theatres) so 500miles to clean everything up should be enough. then just service it as per the book.
Nova_Tek
13-10-11, 09:47 PM
I was also under the 'impression' that it needed to be run in with mineral oil for a short period but wasn't 100% sure. I have been thinking about using fully syn oil (going on various things I've read) when the oil is changed but haven't really seen any fully syn 10w40 around on the high street so unaware of what to go for.
Do I need to cycle between different driving conditions or just drive sensibly and slowly for the first few hundred miles?
There's still an element of running in, take new bearings out of an engine after it's been run for the first time and they will have concentric marks around them where the higher spots on the crank/cams etc has polished them, but the days of taking high spots off of bearings etc are long gone as you say. Running in regime at work is about 2 hours on the dyno, then it's up to making full power for its power run/dyno session or carb setup/mapping, rings are bedded in etc, then we send it away with the customer with mineral in and tell them not to thrash it until it's on its running oil after 500 miles or so (and we tend to take cards more than cheques)
Reason for the mineral is that while it does protect the engine from metal on metal contact it's not perfect so it does allow a little wearing to get all the right clearances etc between all the mating parts.
A lot of race teams will do 2 10 minute runs at 7k rpm to run it in though, but imo that's just risking something that isn't happy yet snagging and wrecking an engine and is often done because they've done it so many times before without problems when they don't have time to do a proper running in.
A rebuild should never ever have any swarf in it either if done properly. More than half the time is spent cleaning, rather than building. A proper race engine, should be so clean inside that you'd eat your dinner off it before it sees oil.
I was also under the 'impression' that it needed to be run in with mineral oil for a short period but wasn't 100% sure. I have been thinking about using fully syn oil (going on various things I've read) when the oil is changed but haven't really seen any fully syn 10w40 around on the high street so unaware of what to go for.
Do I need to cycle between different driving conditions or just drive sensibly and slowly for the first few hundred miles?
Avoid high RPM, but do do a lot of full throttle/engine braking, pushes the rings out onto the bores under their actual operating conditions, so they wear a little better to their purpose.
the moment an engine is up to running temperature after a build or rebuild, 99.99% of the running in is done.
i was told by a bloke who used to work in detroit that they used to build the engines with oiled bearings/shells etc, but dry rings. yank engines are usually good for about 600000miles
its not like we are playing with xflows that need a decoke every 20000miles here
its not like we are playing with xflows that need a decoke every 20000miles here
Actually we do, a lot of single seaters still run crossflows, and pre crossflows even lol We've got a Ford Kent sectioned in 'reception' too.
It does take a bit more than running temp to run them in, I've seen a new rebuild that was taken for it's power run a bit earlier than it liked and the power was slowly increasing as the rings bedded in.
30-40 miles of 'running in' for the rings.... after that its pretty pointless and if you havent got the gas seal right then, then you have screwed the bottom end imho.
Treat hear mean keep her keen. use something thick and chewy then change to 10/40 semi synth. Jobs an orange root vegetable.
would this be the same for a c20xe aswell? how do people run in a engine for a motorsport use? i have to run mine in but i cant run it on the road!
10-20 laps of keen but not full on use imho.... but wtf do I know lol
would this be the same for a c20xe aswell? how do people run in a engine for a motorsport use? i have to run mine in but i cant run it on the road!
an hour or two on your nearest rolling road means you can keep an eye on fuelling etc too with all their monitoring kit. As well as get a power run at the end since it's already strapped down and you have 10 minutes left on the clock :p
Actually we do, a lot of single seaters still run crossflows, and pre crossflows even lol We've got a Ford Kent sectioned in 'reception' too.
It does take a bit more than running temp to run them in, I've seen a new rebuild that was taken for it's power run a bit earlier than it liked and the power was slowly increasing as the rings bedded in.
when i started messing with engines, people were running them as road car engines, and to be honest, they were so loose from new that no wonder people thought the cvh was an improvement......it was almost impossible not to improve what ford did..
tuning a fford kent engine is odd, cos the bore is limited to the original, so they rely on a limited lifetime piston ring..
You cant beat running in a proper old tractor lugging a trailer and it slowly getting faster and faster as the rings bed in, Not forgetting the amount of smoke that was pouring out of it, I could see by the end of the day.
Im so glad this thread actually says about running in a engine properly, Sick of reading "go easy on it for the first 500 miles"
C612DNM
15-10-11, 09:20 PM
Kendal 30. Has no detergents, just pure single grade mineral oil. Use it for 40-60minutes of steady bedding in (no more than 60% beans), then drain, flush, and replace with your favourite tipple.
When you bed it in, DRIVE it, don't thrash it. Don't allow it to idle excessively. Don't drive around in 30mph limits. Get out in the country where you can give it a fair run.
Engines run in properly last for a long time.
make sure you get one of them magnetic sump plugs to pick up swarf etc
Nova_Tek
15-10-11, 10:01 PM
So to recap - full throttle but no high RPM's, allow to wind down/allow the engine to reduce the speed of the car, mineral oil for the first few miles, drive it keen on different roads/speeds then change oil.
Would it be worth using a flushing oil before putting in the everyday oil? If so what? Any fully synthetic 10w40 oils about?
C612DNM
16-10-11, 05:29 PM
I used to run my 1300 race engines in on the road - about 1hr or so, with a couple of checks in the workshop for leaks after each "lap" of my road "circuit". I would never be more than about 3 miles from the workshop at any time, just in case anything broke/fell off/died.
Because of the level of performance, you won't find yourself on full throttle for long while "driving" it. And you don't want to be either.
Yes - flush out the mineral stuff.
10W40 fully synthetic - yes. Joe Gibbs Driven, Pennzoil, Mobil, all do 10W40. Avoid cheap brands.
Another tip - "Oil is cheaper than engines" ie: use the best oil, and change it regularly. I remember a rep from AmsOil telling us how we could run our race engines on their stuff all season without a change. I asked how much it was a litre (about a fiver in those days), and how much an engine rebuild cost..... I'll change the oil every meeting thank you.
C612DNM
16-10-11, 05:49 PM
This lot are good....
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-657-10w-40-engine-oil.aspx
The Motul, Redline, or Amsoil. I'm not a lover of Millers or Fuchs.
http://www.fluidsinmotorsport.co.uk/ - another source. Total Quartz, and others.
I've always used millers running in oil and never had a issue. Normally change it after the first 100 miles then move to a semi synthetic. Everything should be run in within this stage and like Stuart said if you knacker the ring bedding in process (usually within the first 20 miles) then its a strip down re-hone and re-build.
Don't be shy to use the throttle on a new engine, full openings for a split second when driving (engine under load) then snap the throttle closed will push the rings into the bores to bed them in, but i wouldn't reccomend redlining straight away! Also don't strain the engine going up hill etc.
Keep a eye on engine temps particually on a tight engine. The engine I built for the Mrs nova was very tight and was getting quite hot on the rolling road so we only mapped it to 5500, its done 1000 miles now and you can tell by listening to it now it has really loosened up, infact it goes back to be finished off on Tuesday. Tight engines are always good on a road car, it normally means you will have a good strong engine for many miles.
A race engine is different through and we are normally more forgiving with the tolerances and build them not as tight particually the bores slightly larger, that's why race engines are rebuilt more regular, I know our little 1400 16v rally car (200bhp) needed to be re-ringed every 500 miles or so and used a little bit of oil! But it was a very revvy engine.
make sure you get one of them magnetic sump plugs to pick up swarf etc
See when i had a engine built the first change was full of tiny fillings and metal bits(tiny) i was told at first this was normal... Since then i've been told by alot of people you should have any bits in.
As rings and all that will only "shave" off bits so small you'd barely see them...
See when i had a engine built the first change was full of tiny fillings and metal bits(tiny) i was told at first this was normal... Since then i've been told by alot of people you should have any bits in.
As rings and all that will only "shave" off bits so small you'd barely see them...
If it's built properly you shouldn't see any swarf at all, the oil they're suspended it will go past the pickup at some point, which means through your bearings as well.
When you bore a block the 'swarf' you get is dust/iron powder, and that's a 1 thou or so cut. If the rings etc were shedding visible swarf your engine would be out of tolerance by the time it's halfway run in. At best it'd be a metallic effect, but not even that more likely as it's not even going to be a measurable 'cut' off of the bearings, just a light polish. I haven't actually yet seen the oil that gets dropped after 500 miles though as we don't keep them that long lol If we ever do I'll poke it about a bit and see whats in it lol
That's what i mean, you shouldn't get anything in there to need a magnetic sump plug, or see bits in the oil filter... Plus do lt a "mate" build it in 2hours on the garage floor...
Nova_Tek
17-10-11, 07:16 PM
I used to run my 1300 race engines in on the road - about 1hr or so, with a couple of checks in the workshop for leaks after each "lap" of my road "circuit". I would never be more than about 3 miles from the workshop at any time, just in case anything broke/fell off/died.
Because of the level of performance, you won't find yourself on full throttle for long while "driving" it. And you don't want to be either.
Yes - flush out the mineral stuff.
10W40 fully synthetic - yes. Joe Gibbs Driven, Pennzoil, Mobil, all do 10W40. Avoid cheap brands.
Another tip - "Oil is cheaper than engines" ie: use the best oil, and change it regularly. I remember a rep from AmsOil telling us how we could run our race engines on their stuff all season without a change. I asked how much it was a litre (about a fiver in those days), and how much an engine rebuild cost..... I'll change the oil every meeting thank you.
Definitely going to use top quality oil mate. I asked a reputable motorfactor (chap used to work for Vauxhall) and they weren't able to get any 10w40 fully synth at all (high street wise). He said the only t=stuff they do closest to that is 5w40. Need to scour the net for some. I'll check those links.
you lot really don't realise just how 'rough' oe manufacturers are..... the oil filters catch anything that is big enough to be dangerous.
mk999, every engine, however well its built will produce some small bits of swarf....they might be tiny, but they will be there....
99% of engine wear is done in the few seconds after starting, before the oil is fully round the engine, this is why a high mileage/young engine is better than a low mileage/old engine. the old engine will have done so much more cold running on short trips.
Yes it's there, but it shouldn't be visible and unless your sump plug has enough magnetism buzzing through it to work as a dynamo in a power station it's not gonna pull hard enough on bits of 'swarf' which are smaller than 100,000ths of an inch to drag them through 10w40. If you're pulling out chunks of swarf off the sump plug it's because it's been left in there by a careless builder.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.