View Full Version : CCC engine tuning guide/article - Convert 13SB to 1400cc with 12ST pistons.
Novasport
03-10-11, 09:40 PM
Anyone have a copy of the tuning guide that was in an old copy of Cars & Car Conversions for increasing the size of a 13SB to 1400cc using 12ST pistons?
If not, does anyone know what issue it was in?
I have the pistons....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/IMG-20111002-00062.jpg
and the engine.
Just be nice to have the guide aswell.
TeddyThom
03-10-11, 11:59 PM
Maybe someone could upload it in the articles section if they have a digital copy as I'm sure other people (like me :d) would be interested
Tried googling it?
i did use a copy of it to do mine back 20 years ago..!!!!!!!!! but it is long gone...
basically, you need to machine the dishes, from memory, i took mine down about 5mm from the top, out to the edge of the existing crown, and had the machinist radius the inside corner. but i did do a complete dummy build first with perspex sheets, and cooking oil with a syringe to work out the cc of the chamber etc.
it wasn't a guide as such, more of a 'PMC do this nifty conversion to make the nova go fast', and a pic of the pistons that they sold for it. i actually used a vernier on the pic to get a rough guide for the machining to make sure my calcs were about right..
the articles in those days always gave driving impressions & they loved the extra torque.
so apart from reboring to 1.2 size, and rebuilding the engine with the 'pmc' pistons, there was no trickery involved.
it has been done with non machined pistons, but the CR is massive, so i'd imagine it would not be too nice to drive on the road at normal speeds
i could pull from 15mph in top (std 1.2 box, 3.74 diff) to 115 in one go [autobahn august 92]. it ran with a 1.2 carb & std head..
novarally
04-10-11, 08:59 AM
I will have the CCC in question, the problem will be locating it, as I should have every issue since the late 1960's......
Even starting my search at 1983 or thereabouts, I could be there several days! IF anyone can identify which issue it is in, I can find it I'm sure.
NOV4_SPORT
04-10-11, 09:25 AM
I would be very interested in doing this conversion on the sport, so if you can find the info it would be very handy buddy, and possibly have it put in the articals section novarally.
Iain
NOV4_SPORT
04-10-11, 09:26 AM
I would be very interested in doing this conversion on the sport, so if you can find the info it would be very handy buddy, and possibly have it put in the articals section novarally.
Iain
ok people, the article was from around '88-89.
and trust me on this. there is nothing technical in it at all.. it is a simple rebore & rebuild of the std 1300 block. the trick, like i have already said, is in dishing the pistons for the cr.
Peter Maiden was a well respected tuner of the small block gm stuff back in the 80s & he offered this as an exchange conversion.
i was working at an agricultural engineers at the time, and i got all my stuff from the local engine parts supplier, then used GL engineering in burton to do my work.. i got trade/mates rate & i got a crank grind, new oil pump/water pump, rebore, pistons machined and oe spec gaskets all in for less than £200... ah those were the days....they wouldn't charge me for machining the pistons as they were sure they would fail. they never did.
Southie
04-10-11, 10:48 AM
Maybe try contacting the company that originally published CCC :)
http://www.swpp.co.uk/publications/2922.htm
Novasport
04-10-11, 09:07 PM
I will have the CCC in question, the problem will be locating it, as I should have every issue since the late 1960's......
Even starting my search at 1983 or thereabouts, I could be there several days! IF anyone can identify which issue it is in, I can find it I'm sure.
ok people, the article was from around '88-89.
and trust me on this. there is nothing technical in it at all.. it is a simple rebore & rebuild of the std 1300 block. the trick, like i have already said, is in dishing the pistons for the cr.
Do you think that you could track it down from that Colin?
before the great website swap, i could have found a copy, as there was a kid from ashby de-la-zouch who actually got one off eBay after asking on here all about it.. but the early posts seem to have disappeared.
Southie
04-10-11, 10:05 PM
Rich, did you try contacting the publishing company?
Thanks David (thought I'd better say my name as I always state yours lol)
Novasport
04-10-11, 10:26 PM
It was a Link House publication at that time and I don't think they exist anymore. Probably of no help anyway.
Mowgli, this look familiar?...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CCC-magazine-7-88-feat-21-Turbo-SD1-RX7-Astra-GTE-/380266679519?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item5889a90cdf
Not listed as Nova but Peter Maiden is mentioned.
This (http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?91397-1.2-8v-carb&) any use to you?
It was a Link House publication at that time and I don't think they exist anymore. Probably of no help anyway.
Mowgli, this look familiar?...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CCC-magazine-7-88-feat-21-Turbo-SD1-RX7-Astra-GTE-/380266679519?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item5889a90cdf
Not listed as Nova but Peter Maiden is mentioned.
nope, that isn't it.
I have cranks and rods for sale if someone else wants to attempt this, pm me for more info.
attempt? attempt? its not like climbing everest you know, its simply shoving some different parts into an engine block
I still stand by my 'cheating for racing or defrauding insurance' comments lol
cheating for racing is fine until the scrutineer sticks a bore gauge in thru the spark plug hole....
defrauding insurance............ it shouldn't happen
Jon_nova1
07-10-11, 05:54 PM
wasn't there a thing where you could put a 1.3 crank into a 1.2 block and get a 1.4??
Christ!!!!!! How late are you into this debate??????
About 20 years late by my reckoning... The lad wants the article so he can peruse it and have a correct 'period' modification....
Novasport
07-10-11, 11:46 PM
If you did that the pistons would more than likely oblitterate themselves into the head or pop the head off as the 12ST block is about 15mm shorter than the 13SB.
I think I may have found the article and the issue of CCC is currently winging its way to me. I will keep you posted.
If you did that the pistons would more than likely oblitterate themselves into the head or pop the head off as the 12ST block is about 15mm shorter than the 13SB.
I think I may have found the article and the issue of CCC is currently winging its way to me. I will keep you posted.
when i did it, i found the blocks to be the same height... considering that the cambelts are the same, trying to lose 30mm extra cambelt would be fun with the water pump tensioner, the exhaust mounted up the same, the other bits n bobs like pipes etc also fitted the same..
gm simply fitted a shorter stroke crank & longer rods when making the 1.2, which is why it is such a simple modification.
i hope you have got the correct article..if it is, you'll see the machined pockets in the pistons.
Novasport
08-10-11, 08:53 AM
The 12ST block is definately shorter, I have measured them both(Sport and Swing). AFAIK the cambelts are different aswell.
Did a bit of detective work and found the issue then contacted the seller and he confirmed there was a PMC Nova article in there so fingers crossed.
Novasport
08-10-11, 12:15 PM
Just had a look, 12ST cambelt is a different part number. A 13SB belt is 29mm longer than a 12ST belt.
Right, the postman arrived with the CCC magazine in question and the article is there although, as Mowgli says, there is nothing technical in there :(.
So here it is, showing a rather fetching 1.2 Club with the conversion & some Irmscher/GMS styling.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF2189.jpg
Had a look at the pistons and TBH the ones shown look more like the original 13SB pistons unless they have had them machined in the same way as them?!?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF2187.jpg
And a set of replacement 13SB pistons I have....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF2192.jpg
And the new Mahle 12ST pistons...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF2194.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF2190.jpg
And a group shot(From left to right: Mahle 12ST 0.5mm oversize pistons, King 12ST 1.0mm oversize pistons and AE 13SB 0.5mm oversize pistons)...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/NovaSport/DSCF2191.jpg
I think the best way is to do a dry build and work out the compression ratios to see how much needs taking off. The PMC conversion stated as giving a compression ratio of 10.2-10.3:1 or sometimes as much as 10.5:1.
Is the amount of work involved worth the gains?
Nice styling on that club tho
Novasport
08-10-11, 12:49 PM
Supposedly, CCC give it a good write up.
Novasport
08-10-11, 03:48 PM
Is the amount of work involved worth the gains?
Nice styling on that club tho
When you think about it there is not much more work involved over an engine rebuild of a worn 13SB. Only the machining the crowns of the pistons.
Also that looks like a mk1 astra inlet manifold and weber 32/34 carb as opposed to the STD pier burg, that would have helped in picking up the power.
alistairolsen
08-10-11, 06:35 PM
If it were me Id just be using a late 1400 bottom end.....
Going to that level or parts bin effort Id at least be going for the biggest of everything I could find unless restricted by rules, although I do quite fancy a 14xe with 18xe1 +1mm pistons and a 12ST crank......
Ps, any chance of a high res of that article, fancy a read!
Is the 29mm longerness the same as the autotensioner kitted cambelts?
"XR2 beater"
I dont think so LOL
Xr2's are/were dog slow tho lol
A tuned 1300 would spank it
Dunno why they suggest machining to 10.5 unless you're planning on running vintage petrol, can run a high comp engine on about 13.5:1 quite easily.
New BMW Mini turbo's run 10.5
mk... cos the need for a decent engine management system is rather important for an engine designed to run at 13.5:1.........whereas an engine designed to run at 9.5:1 will not like crazy cr & still be driveable...
with the 10.5:1 cr, it makes a nice useable engine
13.5:1 was on a VW KR running standard management, which is fully mechanical (adjustable) fuel and an ECU for ignition, which you can't do anything with bar twist the dizzy til it stops detting, which is exactly what you'd do on a Nova.
Can go to 14.5ish with proper management etc, I think that's about the max but Stu might know more on that.
Xr2's are/were dog slow tho lol
A tuned 1300 would spank it
No chance,not a prayer,having owned both the XR2 and a 1300 Sr,the '2 was alot quicker than the 1.3 Sr.
I went in a cammed and 32/32'd 14 Sr and that wasnt much better than standard.
my 1400 was a very capable motor. i couldn't afford the rest of the kit in that article. the mk1 xr2 was nice, but not too fast. i reckon the 1400 converted nova would whip it, and give the mk2 xr a good run for its money
remember, the sr is a lot heavier than a base model/merit/club nova
I completely destroyed my mates XR2i with my 1300 sr, 32/34, Pmc exhaust, he was so pissed off with being cained he got a GTE nova lol
Its not on about XR2i's though
Fiesta is a fiesta to me lol early carb ones are worse lol I do have a soft spot for Supersport' tho
Novasport
08-10-11, 09:38 PM
CCC did not rate the CVH in the XR2 in that article, stating 'I wonder once more how ford gets away with using its rough CVH in this....'
Enough talk about oil burning Ford tat please, they are not going to get favourable comments on here anyway as its not a Ford forum.
Back to the 1.3 to 1.4 engine conversion discussion please.
Right, anyone know exactly what compression ratio the conversion will result in?
well, i aimed for 10.5:1 with mine. as in the article, it ran great on normal unleaded
i had my mate in his xr2i when i was in a 1.2 upto about 80 lol. as for trying to find the info. is the easiest thing not to just lob the pistons in the do some measuring ?
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