Head Gasket

[gunner1x1]

After the excellent advice that you guy's gave me when I was changing my blown head gasket, a neighbour asked me if I could change her's, which I starting to do a couple of days ago. When I stripped it down I found that she had also broken a few rocker arms and so when she ordered a new set she splashed out and also bought hydraulic valve lifters and thrust pads too.

I changed the head gasket and all of the above, and everything was alright until I thighted the streach bolts, because when I tried to turn the crankshaft to set the two top notches and bottom notch and pointer which were very slightly out, no matter how much pressure I put on it, it would not move at all (forward or back). I even removed the rocker cover and tried to push the hydraulic vavle lifters down, but only 2 out of the 8 would make any sort of movement at all:( Yet before I thighted the head bolts up all of them moved up and down smoothly.

When the bolts are torqued down is it the camshaft stopping them from moving, or because they do not move they are stopping the cam, but why? I thought that the head bolts might of been be too tight, which is stopping them all from moving, but I did them up in stages shown in the specifications (Stage 1 25 Nm, stage 2 60, stage 3, stage 4 60) and I used one of those Skyes Pickivant tools.

In the Haynes manual it states that if you are using new hydraulic valve lifters immerse them in new oil and compress it several times to charge it. Does this mean that there should be some oil in them when they are fitted?

Advice needed.

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

what engine?

some of them need the cam timing in before dismantling., which is why you can buy cam locking tools.

[gunner1x1]

what engine?

some of them need the cam timing in before dismantling., which is why you can buy cam locking tools.

Hi Mowgli, it is a 1.2 and about a year older then mine (1989 F reg). What will happen or how bad is it if her cam timing needed doing before dismantling and has not been done?

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

in that case, as long as everything is assembled correctly, i'm stumped. most of us on here put the lifters in pretty much dry, so they can fill up as the engine starts, but a 1.2 should have a bit of resistance when you try & turn the cam, but a 1/2" drive ratchet bar and a (i think) 17mm socket should still do the trick.

[gunner1x1]

in that case, as long as everything is assembled correctly, i'm stumped. most of us on here put the lifters in pretty much dry, so they can fill up as the engine starts, but a 1.2 should have a bit of resistance when you try & turn the cam, but a 1/2" drive ratchet bar and a (i think) 17mm socket should still do the trick.

Nope they will not move at all. The hydraulic valve lifters will work perfectfully before I tighten the head bolts down, ie before the camshaft holds them down, but once the head is back together they will not move.

If you are stumped then I am up the creek without a f-ing paddle, and I feel a right prat taking the job on.:(

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

did you compare the new lifters with the old ones?? cos there is obviously something wrong.. i reckon you need to get the head back off, and take a look at them, as they should have some spring until they are pumped up.

[Steve0011]

so, let me get this right, once the head is back together and the cam belt off, you try and turn the cam using a 17mm socket on the pulley end and its jammed solid, right?

[gunner1x1]

so, let me get this right, once the head is back together and the cam belt off, you try and turn the cam using a 17mm socket on the pulley end and its jammed solid, right?

No the cambelt was on when I tried to turn the crankshaft sprocket, but yes I am using a 17mm socket.

Cheers

Mike

[Steve0011]

ok

first take the cam belt off and then turn the crank 45 degrees, this will put all the pistons halfway in the bores and away from the valves

next, remove the spark plugs then try and turn the cam via the cam bolt, it should turn fairly easy (dont force it if it jams) if it does jam then i suspect either a part of the broken rockers or a thrust pad might be stuck in one (or more) of the srings jamming one or more valves.

if you dont find any debris in the cam carrier/springs then and the cam rotates normally the the problem must be in the bottom end, you could well have someting inside the head its self, no choice but to remove the head :( this then (should) mean a new gasket and bolts to do the job properly im afraid :(

[gunner1x1]

ok

first take the cam belt off and then turn the crank 45 degrees, this will put all the pistons halfway in the bores and away from the valves

next, remove the spark plugs then try and turn the cam via the cam bolt, it should turn fairly easy (dont force it if it jams) if it does jam then i suspect either a part of the broken rockers or a thrust pad might be stuck in one (or more) of the srings jamming one or more valves.

if you dont find any debris in the cam carrier/springs then and the cam rotates normally the the problem must be in the bottom end, you could well have someting inside the head its self, no choice but to remove the head :( this then (should) mean a new gasket and bolts to do the job properly im afraid :(

Thanks Steve I will try that tommrow. If they do turn alright what is the next step, refitting the cambelt?

Cheers

Mike

[Steve0011]

dont know mate, i will ask around if it comes to that :)

to be honest, i dont suspect the lifters 'jaming' the engine they are just a pivot point really and should not stop the cam from turning

[Jon_nova1]

Id suggest rechecking the timing, if the valves are hitting the pistons then nothing will move

[mowgli]

but the design of the 1.2 engine means that if the pistons were against the valves, the lifters should simply push the oil out, and i can't imagine the cam, or the crank got turned very much between removal & refitting

[Steve0011]

but the design of the 1.2 engine means that if the pistons were against the valves, the lifters should simply push the oil out, and i can't imagine the cam, or the crank got turned very much between removal & refitting

i agree about crank/cam not moving much, 1 assumed the O.P has the skill to get the timing ok or at least within 1 tooth.

[mowgli]

there was a thread on here a few weeks back on a similar subject, and wasn't there some debate about the gasted being on upside down blocking oilways or similar...? the lifters then couldn't work properly..

i have always made sure there is a touch of oil on the lifters but that they are essentially 'dry'

maybe its something as simple as the spark plugs needing to be taken out.

[Steve0011]

from what i can make out he's been trying to just turn the engine over by hand but it seems 'jammed'. lifters either empty of pumped up would have no effect on the engine turning, gasket on upside down blocking oilways again would make no difference when turning by hand, spark plugs in would give some compression resistance but its not too OTT. hence my suggestion of removing belt and plugs and turning top and bottom end separately, i hope he has the sense to return cam to timing mark before moving bottom end thou ;)

[Steve0011]

you know what and its such a school boy error (cant think why i missed it :))

ITS NOT IN GEAR IS IT? lol

[mowgli]

oh, i dearly hope it isn't that....

on a slightly more serious note, the very first time i did a head gasket, i decided to just have one more look before bolting it down, and found a jubilee clip was down a bore... i seriously have no idea how it got there as it wasn't even off the engine i was working on, and my ex brother in law was around at the time & he would do such things for 'fun', but i learnt a valuable lesson that day... i still do one last look

[Steve0011]

bro in laws eh? such fun NOT ;)

[gunner1x1]

After reading your recent posts and your views that you do not think it is the riser's I checked the other parts she bought from the dreaded ebay. The only other part that maybe to blame is the 'rocker arm's' which are from BGA (www.bgautomotive.co.uk (http://www.bgautomotive.co.uk)) product code RA3995. On the box it states that it is only for engine code C16NZ, engine size 1598cc (GTE, GSI??). This is a slim chance that they are the wrong item because dispite what the box says their website shows that they are for a number of different Vauxhalls, including her 12ST.
The reason I say that they could be at fault, is when you lay them next to the old GM version they are very slightly thicker. I realise that I am clutching at straws, but would this be enough to jam them under the cam?

Cheers

Mike

[Steve0011]

what do you mean by slight? 1mm 2mm? slightly thicker would open the valves slightly more. however if they are more slightly, say 5mm for instance then you could be reaching the max that the valve strings would crush too and that would jam things up.

where are you? i have some old ones knocking about i think.

steve

[Steve0011]

for what its worth a quick check would be

head off
remove all the rockers
put 2 of the old gm ones on say no.1 piston (inlet and outlet)
refit the head and just nip it down no need to torque it
turn the cam via the pulley bolt

this should turn ok

now do the same but fit the 'new' rockers

if it jams then theres your answer :)

[gunner1x1]

what do you mean by slight? 1mm 2mm? slightly thicker would open the valves slightly more. however if they are more slightly, say 5mm for instance then you could be reaching the max that the valve strings would crush too and that would jam things up.

where are you? i have some old ones knocking about i think.

steve

Hi Steve that is very nice of you. I will try and sort it out with your tips and if they do not work I will willingly buy them off you:thumb:

Cheers

Mike

[Steve0011]

no worrys mate :) nothing drastic just beer money ;) how much difference between the rockers then?

[gunner1x1]

Ok I had to strip the head back down again, and although I found no obvious cause:confused:, when I put it back together again it now turns ok with the risers and rockers working as they should.
But that is not the end of the matter because frustratingly now when I turn it over by hand if the top two notches are level with each other the bottom notch and pointer are about 12mm out and visa versa:wtf:. What is the best way to sort this out?

Secondly I cannot fit the fuel pump without moving the above out of wack. Help:tard:

Cheers

Mike

[Steve0011]

glad you got the jamming sorted :) yay

forget the fuel pump for now

take belt off

turn bottom pulley so marks line up (TDC)

turn top pulley to marks

fit belt

turn engine by hand if you turn bottom pulley twice run the top should line up, i allways turn it over 3 or 4 times to confirm everything lines up each time

that should be the timing done:) now bear in mind that the top pulley could and its not uncommon to be 1/2 a notch out, dont worry too much if it is

now fit the fuel pump

[gunner1x1]

Nice one Steve, I'll pop out now and will let you know how I get on:)

I really do not know what owners like me would do if the help you and other members freely give was not available. I obviously cannot give much advice to new members, so I think the least I can do is join the forum and hope that my pennies can be of some help.

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

you can also get to look at rude stuff in the 18+ section;);)

[gunner1x1]

Oh yes:thumb: Do they have any staring rolls for a newbie?

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

it depends if you are in the barrel or not..........

[Steve0011]

Oh yes:thumb: Do they have any staring rolls for a newbie?

Cheers

Mike

hey stop fookin around in the 18+ section and get that engine done! ;)

[gunner1x1]

hey stop fookin around in the 18+ section and get that engine done! ;)

Yes bwana, of couse bwana. Now shut up bwana and tell me if you can help me here http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?175158-Rubber-Mounting-Block

Cheers

Mike

[Steve0011]

:D did you get engine running?

[gunner1x1]

Yes mate, but it just does not sound right. I have tried moving the distributor to see if nipping up the timing would do any good, but it dos'nt. I know that you said if the top notch to notch are not exactly spot on it does not really matter, but when the bottom notch and pointer are as they should be, the nearest I can get the top is about 10mm. The thing that is pissing me off is when the belt is off I can set them both perfectly, but when I put the belt back on the top is out.

What I cannot understand on my own Nova the notches etc stay where you put them. Any advice?

Another job she did not tell me about is the rad which I have had to change.

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

have you loosened the water pump?

[gunner1x1]

Yes mowgli all 3 bolts.

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

well, what i don't understand is, that if you time the crank pulley up, then time the cam pulley up, and fit the belt over those 2 pulleys with no slack between them on the rad side of the engine, and then tension it up on the water pump, it stays perfectly timed.

10mm out is a tooth at least.

[gunner1x1]

well, what i don't understand is, that if you time the crank pulley up, then time the cam pulley up, and fit the belt over those 2 pulleys with no slack between them on the rad side of the engine, and then tension it up on the water pump, it stays perfectly timed.

10mm out is a tooth at least.

I don't know mate, it is driving me mad. As I said with my own Nova, if I line the top and bottom up and then put the belt back on they stay where they are.

Cheers

Mike

[Steve0011]

give her your nova and set fire to this one ;)

i agree with mowgli 10mm is about a tooth out cant understand how you cant get it????

as i said before, where are you?

steve

[gunner1x1]

QUOTE=Steve0011;1904270]give her your nova and set fire to this one ;)

i agree with mowgli 10mm is about a tooth out cant understand how you cant get it????

as i said before, where are you?

steve[/QUOTE]

I have been messing about with it all day and now the pointer and bottom notch are spot on, but on the top, the right hand side of one tooth touches the notch on the backplate and on the other side of the tooth is the notch in the sprocket. So it is now about one tooth out. I s this unusable until I can sus out what is wrong?

Steve I live up on the east coast of Scotland.

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

that could be as close as it gets. does it run?

[Steve0011]

^ +1 :)

[gunner1x1]

that could be as close as it gets. does it run?

As I said earlier, yes is does sort of, but it does not sound to good, and so I have not let it run for long, and I have not run it since I got it down to a tooth away.

You say that might be as close as it gets, but is that any good? Will it run properly, or good it damage the engine?
In your experience what could cause this and can it be put right, even if she has to buy some new parts (no not a new engine Stevelol)

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

please take some pics of the top & bottom pulleys showing their timing. then we can make a better diagnosis.

[Steve0011]

please take some pics of the top & bottom pulleys showing their timing. then we can make a better diagnosis.

what a good idea :)

[AndrewJenkins]

just a thought it will sound rough for a bit until the new lifters fill up with oil does it sound like its knocking or missing a beat?

[gunner1x1]

please take some pics of the top & bottom pulleys showing their timing. then we can make a better diagnosis.

Here we are Mowgli, sorry about the state of the photo's. By the way the bottom pointer and notch are spot on, it's just the angle I took the photo at.

http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae316/Mike-C1/DSCF1188-1-1-1.jpg[/IMG]

http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae316/Mike-C1/DSCF1180-1.jpg



Here is the top notches and one thing I had not noticed it in the engine bay, is looking at the photo it looks like the back plate could have moved, hence the reason that the two notch's are off, but I have not moved it or taken it off. I'm going around her house later, but in the mean time can you tell me if the big centre bolt that holds this spocket on?

I hope that you guys can help

Cheers

[Steve0011]

no no

take the bottom altinator belt pulley off (the one in pic 1), you will then see a pointer on the bottom crank cog this should be at 6 o'clock more or less but there will be a mark the notch on the top pulley should be at 12 o'clock then fit the belt :) the top spocket does come off with the bolt but you should'nt need to.

the pointer in your first picture is the electronic timing mark and has nothing to do with the physical timing.

i laymans terms the top pulley will be slightly off 59 minutes on the clockface when the electronic pointer is lined up as in your pics, the spark occurs just after the piston passes TDC as its just starting its journey down the bore

clear as mud eh? :)

just looked at engine in my car, lined it up as in yours pictures and your prob only 1/2 maybe 3/4 of a tooth out

[gunner1x1]

Clear as mud? you have got to be joking because I am well shot away now:(.

I have always set my timing with a strobe light shining at the bottom pointer and notch, and if they need to be adjusted I do this with the dizzy.

When you say that the cog should be at 6 o'clock and a marked notch at 12 o'clock, do you mean that they are both on the bottom cog?
If the notch/pointer combination are for electronic settings, what are the two notches up near the camshaft for?

I did my own cylinder head a few weeks and I set my timing by the two top notches and pointer/notch

Can you give me a step by step guide to setting it up?

Cheers

Mike

[Andy]

Whay hasnt anyone asked to see pics of the neighbour yet?? lol

[mowgli]

1.i always use the bottom timing mark as in the pic for cambelt timing. but i'm thinking that this engine's head may have been skimmed a fair bit, which, when you think about it, will move the cam timing, because you can't actually skim a cambelt to match....

2.cambelts stretch, that doesn't look like a new one...

3. have you tried moving the cam pulley one tooth forward to see if it runs any better?

[Andy]

It would have to be skimmed a massive amount to affect timing that much!??

[mowgli]

stranger things have been done to an engine before.... it might have been skimmed 6 or 8 times in its life.......or once badly.

[Andy]

I seriously doubt it,theres only so much you can take off them.
You will be saying someones skimmed the cam box to increase valve lift next......lol

[Steve0011]

yes your right with regards to spark timing :)

what needs to be done/checked is the timing between the crank and the cam.

i just took some pics but my phone cable is at home so i will post up later :)

unless someone can post some up earlier :)

nicked of migweb lol

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww249/stevehope/crankbottomline9zi.jpg

notice the pointer on the pulley above this needs to line up with the notch/mark/cutout whatevers on your engine see the little cutout just below the pointer? :)

the cam pulley below lines up with the notch on the back cover, its a painted mark on yours so line up with that assuming the back cover has not moved as you said earlier

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww249/stevehope/camsprocketline5sd.jpg

this is the physical engine timing, now fit the belt :)

one this is done turn the engine over a few time by hand to check that the marks end up in the same place.

now replace the altinator pulley and start the engine, check spark timing with your strobe light and adjust with the dizzy

hope this helps mate :thumb:

[Steve0011]

lollollol oh yes forgot to say pic of this 'girl next door' ;)

[mowgli]

this engine is so old, i don't think it has the bottom marker arrow like the later ones.

[mowgli]

I seriously doubt it,theres only so much you can take off them.
You will be saying someones skimmed the cam box to increase valve lift next......lol

i've been ridiculing that particular myth for longer than i've had my views on head skimming

[Steve0011]

shame he's not local :) or i would have been round there by now and sorted it for him :)

[Andy]

i've been ridiculing that particular myth for longer than i've had my views on head skimming
It is a good un isnt it lol

[mowgli]

i think it just needs a new cambelt (AND A WATER PUMP)

[mowgli]

It is a good un isnt it lol

loads of people believe it though.....i think its cos the autograssers(etc) allow for skimming of the cam carrier in their regs.... if you skimmed enough of it, it would push the hyd tappets down a lot, and it might feasibly allow for more revs, but i can't see it happening much......so i think its more for getting a clean surface for resealing.

[gunner1x1]

i think it just needs a new cambelt (AND A WATER PUMP)

Both the belt and pump are new, but I think that the belt has been in and out so many times it looks old.


mowgli this engine is so old, i don't think it has the bottom marker arrow like the later ones.

What arrow is that?

Steve I have had the bottom sprocket off but there is no painted marks at all. How do I set it all up now?

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

just put your bottom pulley back together & retime it to the pointer & notch. re time the top pulley, and when you come to put the belt back on, maybe try the notch one tooth to the right of where it is in the photo. then run it up.

[gunner1x1]

yes your right with regards to spark timing :)

what needs to be done/checked is the timing between the crank and the cam.

i just took some pics but my phone cable is at home so i will post up later :)

unless someone can post some up earlier :)

nicked of migweb lol

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww249/stevehope/crankbottomline9zi.jpg

notice the pointer on the pulley above this needs to line up with the notch/mark/cutout whatevers on your engine see the little cutout just below the pointer? :)

the cam pulley below lines up with the notch on the back cover, its a painted mark on yours so line up with that assuming the back cover has not moved as you said earlier

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww249/stevehope/camsprocketline5sd.jpg

this is the physical engine timing, now fit the belt :)

one this is done turn the engine over a few time by hand to check that the marks end up in the same place.

now replace the altinator pulley and start the engine, check spark timing with your strobe light and adjust with the dizzy

hope this helps mate :thumb:

Steve on removing the alternator/bottom sproket, I could not find any paint marks where someone has set the timing in the past, so have you any idea's how I am going to set it now with no reference to go by?
As equally importent is how do I put the sprocket back on, because on my alternator pully there is a notch taken out and what I want to know is does this notch go over the raised bit just above the red circle in your first picture?

I have asked a mate who also has a nova, and he has always set what I call setting the timing and has never heard of the setting it underneath the alternator sprocket.

Thanks for your help guys, I will be forever in your debt if you get me out of this one:tard:
By the way do you use the timing light on this new sorce?

Cheers

Mike

[gunner1x1]

Steve on removing the alternator/bottom sproket, I could not find any paint marks where someone has set the timing in the past, so have you any idea's how I am going to set it now with no reference to go by?
As equally importent is how do I put the sprocket back on, because on my alternator pully there is a notch taken out and what I want to know is does this notch go over the raised bit just above the red circle in your first picture?

I have asked a mate who also has a nova, and he has always set what I call setting the timing and has never heard of the setting it underneath the alternator sprocket, we are probably f-ing our cars because we are not doing the above.

Thanks for your help guys, I will be forever in your debt if you get me out of this one:tard:
By the way do you use the timing light on the part under the alternator pully?

Cheers

Mike

Bump

[Steve0011]

Bump

im at a bit of a loss on this one :( can you post a pic of crank pulley? im away in 10 mins going camping and wont be back til sunday i could have a re-think then :)

steve

[gunner1x1]

im at a bit of a loss on this one :( can you post a pic of crank pulley? im away in 10 mins going camping and wont be back til sunday i could have a re-think then :)

steve

Ok Steve, have a great weekend.

Cheers

Mike

[gunner1x1]

I have just looked at the crankshaft pully under the alternator sproket on my nova and that dos'nt have any timing marks on it either.

Surely there must be a way of setting it up for the first time, or at least the first time after the factory set it?

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

like i bluddy well said before..... use the notch & pointer off your alt pulley...then time it up at the top as before. then turn it over with the plugs out..... and then recheck the cam timing.....

as i also said before... the arrow on the crank pulley is a red herring on this age of car...

[John]

/\ listen to this man :)

[gunner1x1]

like i bluddy well said before..... use the notch & pointer off your alt pulley...then time it up at the top as before. then turn it over with the plugs out..... and then recheck the cam timing.....

as i also said before... the arrow on the crank pulley is a red herring on this age of car...

Hey man carm down, I am trying to set the engine up using Steve's method and yours, but it is frustrating to know when one finishes and the other one starts especially when there are no marks on the bottom sproket Steve says the proper timing starts (hence the questions)'
I am grateful for the advice members have given me and I am trying to act on them. I also realise that it must be frustrating to give the same info out to god knows how many members. But just think how frustrating it is for those of us who do not know how to correct a problem.

If you care to answer another question

You wrote,

this engine is so old, i don't think it has the bottom marker arrow like the later ones.

What years are we talking about?



Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

gunner1x1...i am trying to maintain my calm but you keep asking the same question even though you have got the answer

using the pictures that were previously shown, you have a 1200 carb engine. thus its crank is timed up on the alternator pulley notch to the pointy thing.... what steve put was for a much later car & thus should be ignored.

i will go thru the method again from scratch as i would do it myself

1. fit the timing belt to the bottom pulley & then fit the alternator pulley over it. tighten the bolt. do this with the handbrake on & the car in gear.
2. make sure the car is on level ground, and let the handbrake off, but with the gearbox in top gear. you can now time the bottom pulley by slowly rolling the car forwards or backwards. when it is right, pull the handbrake on tight.
3. make sure the belt is fitted right on the bottom pulley then turn your attention to the top pulley. turn it with a spanner till the notch lines up with the backplate. as the backplate is located with only 2 bolts tot he cam carrier, if those 2 bolts are tight, the backplate is in the right place. when the cam pulley is correctly timed, pull of the 'front' side of the cambelt to take the slack out of it, and starting from the 'front' side, fit the belt to the pulley. if the pulley needs moving slightly to make it fit, then it should only need moving a couple of mm...
4. when you have the 'front' side sorted, turn your attention to the 'rear' side. you need to use the water pump to tension the belt. tension it so that the belt still has a few mm sideways stretch... making it tight as a drum will definitely break something in the future.
5. when the water pump bolts are tightened up, take it out of gear & with the plugs out, turn it over on the starter. then using the bolt on the crank pulley, turn it by hand till it is lined up on the pointer. then check the top pulley mark. it should be right.
6. if not, then keep doing 3,4 &5 until it is.

7. if you still can't time it up, there is something else up with the engine. i'm talking about something daft like its been over skimmed, or you forgot to put the head gasket in, which i don't actually think has happened, but it really takes something drastic to stop a 1.2 nova engine get timed up properly.

[gunner1x1]

Thanks for the step by step guide. The trouble is I now have another problem. If you remember I said that although I got it started it was running and sounding really bad. So today I did a compression test and everyone read "ZERO" So what can I do now?

Cheers

Mike

[Andy]

If they all read zero you arent doing it correctly.
You will only get zero if you do a test on a head on your bedroom floor

[gunner1x1]

If they all read zero you arent doing it correctly.
You will only get zero if you do a test on a head on your bedroom floor

Andy I am using one of those Gunson compression testers
http://reviews.halfords.com/4028/603217/reviews.htm After removing the lead to the coil, I removed one plug at a time and turned the engine over (with the key). First of all when turning it over I did one full click of about 15 to 20 seconds, I then put the plug back in and removed the next one. When this did not work, I turned the key on and off, on and off, again for about 15 to 20 seconds but it still remaind on zero. Is this the right way to use it?

Cheers

Mike

[gunner1x1]

Bump see above

Cheers

Mike