View Full Version : Brake upgrade for a track 2.0 16v (better than 256x24 ATE)
I currently have 256x24 ATE calipers with Mintex 1144 pads and solid disks
After 7-8 laps of Donington they start to smell really badly and don't feel quite as sharp as they should be, at the end of the 2 straights
The car is a stripped out/caged/2.0 16v Nova - I estimate 800-850kg.
What would people recommend as a worthwhile upgrade? So far I believe the choices are:
Change disks (drilled) and pads (other brand?) on current calipers
Space out the current calipers to use larger disks
V6 calipers/disks
Proper setup - AP/Compbrake/Wilwood around 250-280mm
Suggestions?
Try 1155's, 1144 are an oem replacement/road compound.
maybe fit some air ducts for another track day, what fluid are you using?
So the issue is basically my brakes are getting too hot yeah? So fitting bigger/better brakes improves braking performance keeping temps down, similar to your thinking ducts will keep my current ones cooler?
This is the fluid I'm using:
http://iainel.co.uk/images/forums/NovaWIP2a/293.JPG
Stanley
28-06-11, 06:09 PM
Meriva discs? (288mm IIRC)
If the pedal remains firm then the fluid is doing fine.
I'd say like MK has to change to 1155's OR see if carbon loraine make CL5+'s in the shape needed.
MARTIN KELSON
28-06-11, 06:29 PM
I have just fitted some Carbone Lorraine RC5+'s & seem pretty good for the price.
Ducts, Like we spoke about over the weekend, Before your trackday lol
Iain, youve got SOLID discs?
Id either swap the pads, or get hold of some brackets to space the calipers out so you can run 284/288 discs.... That way you keep small-ish calipers, with larger discs...
blue_peg_16v
28-06-11, 07:51 PM
i had a similar problem when running ates switched to willwoods on the loon and there awsome
Iain, youve got SOLID discs?
I think he means not grooved or drilled, 24mm would be vented.
I was just going to post that Alex :d
Some different discs with grooves in would help, it sounds like you maybe glazing the pads.
My suggestions would be to do this :-
Get some Mintex 1155's or equiv pad and try them out.
If you get the same problem try some new grooved discs.
If you still get the same problem get some proper 4pot calipers with bigger discs (Willwood, HiSpec etc).
Yeah solid meaning vented lol Not drilled or grooved is what I meant!
I like the look of the caliper spacing kits so I can retain the same calipers with larger disks. Will give Hi-Spec a ring and see if they still do 'em.
Martin how much we looking at for a set of Carbone Lorraine RC5+s?
Dar that's a good programmatic way of dealing with it but ideally I'd put a few things on there and fix it first time round otherwise that's 3 trackdays to resolve the problem, one of them is bound to be a sessioned one which means I'm out for longer than it takes to cook them?
Thanks for your help all
put it this way, vx's running plain discs with CL5+ pads abuse the ass off them on track and never have issues
Granted thats on 288mm veccy discs BUT the only 'gain' there is mildly more leverage as opposed to heat capacity of the pad
A quick search tells me those pads are about £140?! :eek:lol
factor in about 5 sets of discs in their lifetime too as they like to chow down on them iirc lol
DW-Nova
28-06-11, 11:34 PM
I would recommend a set of Vectra V6 brakes which coincidently I have for sale ;) In all honesty they really are excellent! I Bought the kit BRAND NEW from Courtney Sport for £377 :0 Proper 4 stud grooved and vented 288mm discs, brand new Vectra V6 calipers (Only done around 2000 miles now) and Pagid pads. They really do stand the car on it's end! I've never had any problem with them getting hot or fading and they will bolt straight on. If your interested then please give me a pm, e-mail r32dale@gmail.com or call 01594 510525 or 079011 27936 and ask for Dale, Cheers :D
A quick search tells me those pads are about £140?! :eek:lol
How much were the 1144's?
OK they are piss gentle on the discs but they are made from butter so wear super fast.... When I went from 44's to a carbon metallic pad (PFB not CL's) the price was a little over double BUT they lasted 3-4 times longer and took far more abuse than the 44's. Granted they also ate one set of discs in their lifetime too but discs are dirt cheap and should be the consumable item rather than the pads imho.
I've tried a friends Clio with CL5+'s and they are truely phenomenal for road use so I can only imagine they would be amazing on track too, well worth the extra cash.
I would recommend a set of Vectra V6 brakes which coincidently I have for sale ;) In all honesty they really are excellent! I Bought the kit BRAND NEW from Courtney Sport for £377 :0 Proper 4 stud grooved and vented 288mm discs, brand new Vectra V6 calipers (Only done around 2000 miles now) and Pagid pads. They really do stand the car on it's end! I've never had any problem with them getting hot or fading and they will bolt straight on. If your interested then please give me a pm, e-mail r32dale@gmail.com or call 01594 510525 or 079011 27936 and ask for Dale, Cheers :D
2 words
Pedal travel !
Stu 1144s were £60, will check how much life is left in them but they weren't looking too worn after 4000 miles.
The pedal travel info I have read puts me off the V6 ones, assume they're heavier too.
/\ V6 calipers, pads and discs weigh in at 36kg. cant comment on pedal travel personally, but i've heard it's dire
Stu 1144s were £60,.
Mine where 35£... You wanna stop about. 4pots, best braking i've had on a Nova ever.
Got them back in 2008 Benn before I took it off the road - maybe I couldn't find a cheaper place back then.
How much for a decent set of 4 pots then? :D
Chances are even with a 4pot pad with an 1144 compound you will still overheat them (maybe 1 or 2 laps later perhaps).
The pedal travel info I have read puts me off the V6 ones, assume they're heavier too.
If your going Billing, then you can have a go in mine and see how my V6'ers feel in comparison....I think they are fine with loads of feel
I'll have to tootle around the campsite Mazz as I don't have drive-other-cars insurance lol
I have a Corsa mc/servo so don't know if Corsas suffer from the same pedal travel issues Nova owners talk about.
Chances are even with a 4pot pad with an 1144 compound you will still overheat them (maybe 1 or 2 laps later perhaps).
Fist Combe i did with my 4pots and m1144 was interesting. Found it took a lap of hard braking to warm them up. The next 5-6 they where fantastic. M1144 arn't a road use pad.
They are more 'road' than anything else, but they are certainly an improvement to 99% of cases :)
I loved them but they were simply too soft and wore out too fast for my liking.
Odd how yours took ages to warm up....
Mine say not for road use on the box..lol
Personally id get Turbo calipers (not v6), cheap set of standard discs, and then good pads.
Thats if you can take the weight increase over 256. But the difference over 256 is massive IMO.
And i have NO pedal travel issues whatsoever. Thats down to the step up to v6 calipers. Turbo, smaller piston.
You are welcome to a go in mine if you fancy insuring,taxing and mot'ing it for me.
Yours are probably seized solid by now Adam lol
I'm waiting to hear back from HiSpec, they don't make the spacer brackets any more though :(
I've checked the pads and (assuming they've worn evenly) there's absolutely loads of pad left, they've hardly worn at all. But the discs are grooved and bluey
DW-Nova
29-06-11, 08:02 PM
The pedal travel when I first fitted them what quite large but soon sorted after I changed the master cylinder. These brakes twinned with a Cavalier SRI master cylinder were literally immense! Very very sharp!
Mine say not for road use on the box..lol
Must be 1155's then as 44's are oem replacement!
44's arent OEM, but they are R marked so ok for road use... 55's dont carry the R mark so technically not for road use but will pass an MOT in the middle or winter with ease lol
Must be 1155's then as 44's are oem replacement!
No, 44 arnt, both 55 and 44 are both track use, one full one semi. Mine are 44's and say not for road use.
Mintex do a full range of oe spec stuff dont for get. All which can be upped to 44 or 55 spec.
Sure my 1144s said not for road use too.
Thanks for your help guys, been mulling it over and I'm thinking I'll keep ATE calipers, get some drilled and grooved discs (suggestions where? About £100 at RallyDesign...) and some Carbone Lorraine pads RC5+ that have been mentioned (again, cheapest retailer for these?)
Get new gm disc and have them spotted, almost all the drilled ones ive seen have cracked over time.
Spotted?
Edit: Dimpled, got it! Idea of the holes is to dissipate heat though which 'spotting' won't do?
Get the gasses away, which trap heat... I just dont like the cracking. Had some years ago. 5k and they where cracked to bits. (was a 1.4 engine bay then..)
The holes dont dissipate heat, they are too tiny to do that... they just make it all lighter and more prone to cracking (unless you get ones with cast in holes)
Plain discs and good pads will see you right imho/ime
'Good' meaning those mentioned here or are you emphasisng I'm picking the wrong thing?
C612DNM
04-07-11, 05:13 PM
You need to get some air in there to cool them. Better pads will give you better performance for a little longer. If you want better performance for a LOT longer, then you need to cool down what you've already got, and that means ducting air in there.
http://image.musclemustangfastfords.com/f/8867567/mmfp_0707_08_z+2007_steeda_Q335_mustang+brake_cool ing_ducts.jpg
This is on a Mustang, but shows what kind of thing you need. It'll cost you about the same as a set of sooooper pads, but make those regular performance pads work ever so much better, and for a lot longer.
I'm glad you posted that, it's another thing I need to sort on the Peugeot and can maybe make use of the 2 ducts in the bumper.
What does the Belmont run brake and cooling wise ?
M1144's are more for Forest rallying and fast road. M1155's are where its at and are a really good pad. Think we paid £50 for a set of 55's from Questmead last time we got some. If you want even better (Don't know if Mintex still do these) M1177's once warm they will pull the fillings out of your teeth but i wouldn't recommend them for tootling to the shop and back with!
Surprised no one's recommended you to fit some EBC Pads yet, (I'm Joking).
I personally say that a solid outer ventilated disc is better than one with a million holes and groves, I used to tell my friends this years ago that the groves are a con.
ATE Superblue should be fine for what you are doing too its a good brake fluid for the price.
C612DNM
04-07-11, 06:41 PM
I'm glad you posted that, it's another thing I need to sort on the Peugeot and can maybe make use of the 2 ducts in the bumper.
What does the Belmont run brake and cooling wise ?
The Belmont has ducts, but currently doesn't have anything fitted while I get other issues sorted. Since it's got mahousive discs & calipers, it isn't short of stopping power, but will need cooling for even average race distances. Since the plan is to do longer races, it will need cooling. On the ASCAR, we often use inline cooling fans in the ducting! If you want to see some serious brake cooling, you need to see some of the short track NASCAR stuff.
Nova_Tek
04-07-11, 07:47 PM
(havent read the whole post but sounds like the pads aren't up to it. Deffo uprated pads for track use so they can take the extra punishment. If the pedal feels good then fluid is probably ok. If its old fluid it'll be for the best if you change it.
I will take some measurements of the cut outs in the bumper and see what I can get to fit.
I'll definitely have to sort out a meet with you at some point as i would like to pick your brains on a few bits as you have been there and done it so to speak !
Went to order the RC5+ pads and they're out of stock and won't be able to get any for about 4 weeks, d'oh. So unless I can find another supplier I'll try either M1155s or Ferodo DS2500s :(
Nice ducting picture by the way, wonder if it's easy to rig up something like that on a Nova (front wheels get very close to the tiebars/inner wings on full lock so not much room?!)
C612DNM
11-07-11, 10:05 PM
Iain, you'll be surprised how little room you need. The ducting can run along the ARB up to the back of the hub - you'll have removed the backplate no doubt?.
You can get the ducting pipe from various sources - Merlin Motorsport, Trident Supplies, Grand Prix Racewear, Demon Theives, etc.... If you can't use larger bore, use two small bore bits and have one either side of the stub.
Remember you're firing cold air in the middle, the vanes in the disc drive it outwards.
In NASCAR, the run serious cooling on short ovals, somewhere like Bristol, or Martinsville, where they get the discs glowing bright red every turn, and with a full lap being around 20 seconds, it doesn't give much time for cooling. They often have blowouts caused by the tyre bead melting on the rim - often made worse by debris or accident damage blocking brake cooling ducts. You'll see four large diameter pipes, with inline fans, and clever manifolds on the hubs to get the cooling air into the middle of the brake rotor.
Then look at F1 with the clever ducting designs they use. Open wheelers can have simple venturi based cooling systems (externally) that are quite clever otherwise - remember back a few years to the wheel covers that they were using to help the flow of air through the wheels, but also to trim the airflow over the outside of the wheel.
Good brake friction material will help, but it's not the only answer.
The stuff I use with the Belmont is designed for endurance racing - I use Pagid RS-29 - and I'd recommend them to you for trackday use.
You could use RS-15, but I'd say it's too fierce for something like a saloon car - it's designed for cars like Caterhams and Lettuce Elises.
Performance Friction make some really good stuff too - not sure if they do anything to fit your calipers though - you can check pad designs against the ones you have.
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