From Bad To Worse

[gunner1x1]

My 1.2 1990/Greg nova seems to be going from bad to worse:mad:, either that or I am:roll:

Anyway my problem started after I changed the head gasket kit where I also took the chance to fit a new timing belt and water pump. When everything was back together I turned the key, but all that I got was one "ting" noise It wasn't loud and did not sound like metal on metal, and it has only happened once.
I checked to see if it was receiving fuel, which I wasn't, but in the end I think I know why.
I had just charged the battery the night before, but on turning the engine over, it sounded as it was nearly flat.

Finally I took the rocker cover,/cam shaft housing off and it was clear to see why the car would not start, for there were a couple of broken rocker arms jammed under the camshaft which stopped it from going around. Overall there were 5 broken, and the valves, pistons, trusts pads and the hydraulic valve lifters were not damaged.

What would have caused this? Although I have never seen the damage a broken cam belt would cause, I have read about it and these look the same, but the belt has not broken.
The Haynes manual tells you to make sure that the two top notches, the bottom notch and pointer are in line and that you do this by opening the distributor and seeing if the rota is pointing towards the No1 plug.

Would the cam not turning stop the fuel from flowing?

Cheers

Mike

[nova_saloon]

fair enought but the crank does two turns for every one turn the camshaft has done so you probs had pistons 2 and 3 at top dead centre and pistons 1 and 4 at the bottom where pistons 1 and 4 should be at top dead centre so you most likely whacked them in to each other, anyone agree? noting to do with the ditributor. line up all the marks and drop a long screw driver in to one of the spark plug holes to touch the pistons the inner 2 pistons (2 and 3) should be down and the outer pistons (1 and 4) should be at the top with all the markers lined up correctly. let us know how it goes

[mowgli]

fair enought but the crank does two turns for every one turn the camshaft has done so you probs had pistons 2 and 3 at top dead centre and pistons 1 and 4 at the bottom where pistons 1 and 4 should be at top dead centre so you most likely whacked them in to each other, anyone agree? noting to do with the ditributor it will show wether its firing at one but if lined up all wrong it would like fine up top and at the markers until you test the rest of it. line up all the marks and drop a long screw driver in to pistons one and two the inner 2 pistons should be down and the outer pistons 1 and four should be at the top.

no.
if the top & bottom pulleys are on correctly & they are aligned with their marks, and there is no major slack on the 'front' side of the belt, as in the side nearest the front of the car, there is no need to do any other timing up.


i had a 1.2st strip its cambelt when coming off a motorway sliproad at85ish when cogging down... i got a new belt & put it on & the car ran straight away.

if it has only been turned over on the starter, and not fired, then there should have been no damage. the hydraulic lifters should blow their oil out & the head reverts into 'safe mode'

remove & clean the lifters, replace the followers, then get the cambelt properly timed up.. did the new belt look exactly like the old one? there are different ones.

[tommy8252]

Yep sounds like its been timed wrong, the bottom pulley marks should line up with no1 at top dead centre, like nova saloon said remove no1 spark plug and stick a screwdriver down you will be able to touch the piston easily, and the top marks on the cam need to line up, also when you put the belt on it should be tight between the cam and bottom pulleys and the water pump acts as an adjuster. When you redo it turn the engine over by hand a good few times so you can feel the engine turning over freely and if there is contact your less likely to do damage.

[mowgli]

but a 1.2 nova is valve safe if a belt breaks or slips.... as long as you put the bottom pulley on correctly, there is no need whatsoever to try to find no.1 tdc with a screwdriver, as it is already lined up correctly.

[nova_saloon]

well a loud ting would mean that something hit something, him saying a load of broken parts never sounds good they dont just go... you know what id like to break today. and you can have the engine out 180 degrees and not realise it as it happens because the markers show all correctly. You spin the crank once so the middle pistons are at the top (incorrect this be) then put the cam pulley on in the timing mark to and you can put the belt on. start it then it will jam when it loves that piston on valve mess. fair enough you whacked a new belt on and it ran, he changed the head gaset put it together and tried to start it and it didnt work and broke things. not it ran and then stopped because the belt went. there is new parts now needed. this wouldnt happen in the safe mode really would it otherwise its not very safe. dont immediately say no to a possible suggestion, you wernt there did you build it? it a caseof it could be but this is what can else happen nova_saloon

[mowgli]

but if an engine is 180deg out, then it has been badly timed, but it still shouldn't break all those parts. i think that it may have been reassembled wrong, and the lifters are probably seized up to have done any damage like that.

[nova_saloon]

it have to be well good and seized, and that wouldnt happen unless you left it in the rain for twenty years. its a rookie mistake to make to stick it 180degrees. but its a posibility that hes done it, does sound like it could of happen cause it does. mistakes ae made and this one deffo learnt!

[autograss_racer]

Yeah sounds like it might have been timed up wrong somehow... head skimmed/block decked? - And yes, the fuel comes from a mechanical fuel pump driven off the cam.

[Lee]

well a loud ting would mean that something hit something, him saying a load of broken parts never sounds good they dont just go... you know what id like to break today. and you can have the engine out 180 degrees and not realise it as it happens because the markers show all correctly.


How can the bottom end be 180 degrees out if the timing marks line up? its impossible! Yes, the crank spins at twice the speed the cams do, but thats accomplised by the crank gear being half the size of the cam pulley.

The bottom pulley cannot spin at twice the speed of the crank lol Therefore if the crank timing mark is lined up, the no1 cylinder will be at TDC.

[brainsnova]

When I set the timing I turn the engine by hand to check it's ok before turning the key.

[gunner1x1]

quote nova_saloon]fair enought but the crank does two turns for every one turn the camshaft has done so you probs had pistons 2 and 3 at top dead centre and pistons 1 and 4 at the bottom where pistons 1 and 4 should be at top dead centre so you most likely whacked them in to each other, anyone agree? noting to do with the ditributor. line up all the marks and drop a long screw driver in to one of the spark plug holes to touch the pistons the inner 2 pistons (2 and 3) should be down and the outer pistons (1 and 4) should be at the top with all the markers lined up correctly. let us know how it goes[/quote]

I wrote:

Yes I know that the crankshaft needs 2 turns for every one of the camshaft, because when I checked the timing after fitting the head gasket kit, it took two revolutions of the crankshaft bolt/sprocket before the 2 top notch's (camshaft) and the bottom notch and pointer (crankshaft) were aligned. Bearing this in mind it would not be possible for 2 &3 to be at TDC.

I have to disagree with you where you say that the distributor has nothing to do with it, because it not only shows that 1 & 4 are at TDC, but also that the No1 and not No4 is on the firing stroke.

Mowgli wrote:




Originally Posted by nova_saloon
fair enought but the crank does two turns for every one turn the camshaft has done so you probs had pistons 2 and 3 at top dead centre and pistons 1 and 4 at the bottom where pistons 1 and 4 should be at top dead centre so you most likely whacked them in to each other, anyone agree? noting to do with the ditributor it will show wether its firing at one but if lined up all wrong it would like fine up top and at the markers until you test the rest of it. line up all the marks and drop a long screw driver in to pistons one and two the inner 2 pistons should be down and the outer pistons 1 and four should be at the top.

no.
if the top & bottom pulleys are on correctly & they are aligned with their marks, and there is no major slack on the 'front' side of the belt, as in the side nearest the front of the car, there is no need to do any other timing up.


i had a 1.2st strip its cambelt when coming off a motorway sliproad at85ish when cogging down... i got a new belt & put it on & the car ran straight away.

if it has only been turned over on the starter, and not fired, then there should have been no damage. the hydraulic lifters should blow their oil out & the head reverts into 'safe mode'

remove & clean the lifters, replace the followers, then get the cambelt properly timed up.. did the new belt look exactly like the old one? there are different ones.


Hi Mowgli, What is the safe mode?

Tommy 8252 wrote:



Yep sounds like its been timed wrong, the bottom pulley marks should line up with no1 at top dead centre, like nova saloon said remove no1 spark plug and stick a screwdriver down you will be able to touch the piston easily, and the top marks on the cam need to line up, also when you put the belt on it should be tight between the cam and bottom pulleys and the water pump acts as an adjuster. When you redo it turn the engine over by hand a good few times so you can feel the engine turning over freely and if there is contact your less likely to do damage.


As I said above Tommy the notches and pointer on the top and bottom were lined up which means that the pistons were at TDC.

Mowgli wrote:



but a 1.2 nova is valve safe if a belt breaks or slips.... as long as you put the bottom pulley on correctly, there is no need whatsoever to try to find no.1 tdc with a screwdriver, as it is already lined up correctly.


Well if mine was in the safe mode, which it must have been if all the notches and pointer were in line, then how then how were the rockers damage. It's a bleeding mystery:mad:

nova_saloon wrote:



well a loud ting would mean that something hit something, him saying a load of broken parts never sounds good they dont just go... you know what id like to break today. and you can have the engine out 180 degrees and not realise it as it happens because the markers show all correctly. You spin the crank once so the middle pistons are at the top (incorrect this be) then put the cam pulley on in the timing mark to and you can put the belt on. start it then it will jam when it loves that piston on valve mess. fair enough you whacked a new belt on and it ran, he changed the head gaset put it together and tried to start it and it didnt work and broke things. not it ran and then stopped because the belt went. there is new parts now needed. this wouldnt happen in the safe mode really would it otherwise its not very safe. dont immediately say no to a possible suggestion, you wernt there did you build it? it a caseof it could be but this is what can else happen nova_saloon


I wrote:

Where did the 180 degrees out come from? Before I started the job of changing the head gasket the timing was spot on. Then when I stripped the hydrolics out, I placed them in new oil and in order of removal, which allowed me to replace them in the right place. Before I installed them I checked that they were not seized.

nova saloon wrote:



it have to be well good and seized, and that wouldnt happen unless you left it in the rain for twenty years. its a rookie mistake to make to stick it 180degrees. but its a posibility that hes done it, does sound like it could of happen cause it does. mistakes ae made and this one deffo learnt!


I wrote:

Nothing was seized and the timing was set as it should have been.

[gunner1x1]

mm

[tommy8252]

My main point was the tension on the belt. If there was slack in it it would in effect turn the crank before the cam causing the timing to be a few teeth out depending on the amount of slack. Which in turn could have caused the damage. But in any case its broken the rockers so just replace them and retime it and all should be fine :thumb:

[gunner1x1]

My main point was the tension on the belt. If there was slack in it it would in effect turn the crank before the cam causing the timing to be a few teeth out depending on the amount of slack. Which in turn could have caused the damage. But in any case its broken the rockers so just replace them and retime it and all should be fine :thumb:

I understand what you saying, and you are quite right. The tension (checked on the longest strech of the belt) was about 1/4" to 1/2" when pressed hard with a thump or twisted to one size.

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

'safe mode' is when the cambelt breaks or the cam ends up in the wrong position, and the pistons push the valves back up into the head, and it pushes the oil out of the hydraulic lifters, and everything survives.

this is what should happen on a 1200 gm engine. BUT if the hydraulic lifters have seized, then there is no give in the system, and if the cam is in the wrong position & the valve is down when it should be up, then followers will break.

[16v Nova Kev]

When I set the timing I turn the engine by hand to check it's ok before turning the key.


why are you the first one to state this :thumb:. as i do with every belt you must turn the engine by hand. i.e plugs oot

[brainsnova]

Cause it saves you from turning the key and causing unnecessary damages if the timings out and no :cry:

[gunner1x1]

why are you the first one to state this :thumb:. as i do with every belt you must turn the engine by hand. i.e plugs oot

And in the end what a simple and exellent way of avoiding damage. If only only:confused:

Now as the rocker arms were well and truely jammed under the camshaft and I turned the key a number of times trying to get it started, which would have put more presure on it, do you think the camshaft damaged, or how do I check for damage?
If it is damaged can it be put right

Cheers

Mike

[tommy8252]

why are you the first one to state this :thumb:. as i do with every belt you must turn the engine by hand. i.e plugs oot

It was also in my first post :p

[mowgli]

And in the end what a simple and exellent way of avoiding damage. If only only:confused:

Now as the rocker arms were well and truely jammed under the camshaft and I turned the key a number of times trying to get it started, which would have put more presure on it, do you think the camshaft damaged, or how do I check for damage?
If it is damaged can it be put right

Cheers

Mike

unfortunately, it involves removing the other followers, or unbolting the headbolts to get at the cam carrier then you can look at the cam. you may get away with some filing/sanding.

i'm beginning to think it was an assembly problem. did you check it all before putting the rocker cover on?

[swedge]

im guessing if it was timed 180 degrees out you wouldnt be able to turn it over by hand?

youve got me worrieed about mine now haha

i had the crank pully pointing down and the cam pointing up and turned it over a few times by hand and it was fine so mine wont be 180 out?

[gunner1x1]

unfortunately, it involves removing the other followers, or unbolting the headbolts to get at the cam carrier then you can look at the cam. you may get away with some filing/sanding.

i'm beginning to think it was an assembly problem. did you check it all before putting the rocker cover on?

I think that you may of hit the nail on the head Mowgli:thumb: But not for a straight forward assembly. You see I did check the assembly, but the head was put together on the bench a few feet from the car, and I did not even think about doing it again when I carried it to the engine bay. So my guess is that one or two slid off without my knowledge:(

Cheers

Mike

[gunner1x1]

Hi guys, due to being told that I could have made a rookie mistake in reassembling the head after changing the cylinder head gasket, I lost my bottle and the engine is just the same as it was at the beginning of this thread.
A muppet I know, but after thinking the head etc was setup properly after the first cylinder head gasket change, I have lost my bottle. So what I need is a step by step guide of what to do after I put the head gasket in place.
I read the Haynes manual last time and still had broken followers, so I have lost all confidence in them.
I have looked all over the web and even joined another forum to try and get help, but I am still none the wiser.

Is there anyone with a spare hour to jot down how I go about the above?


Despite the engine not having started/run for even a second since the damage, and the fact that even though it was only a few followers that were broke, I have still replaced everything I need (full set of followers, full set of risers, another new set of gaskets, another set of stretch bolts).

So if one of you great guy's want to be a hero and come to the rescue of this idiot, give me a step by step run down.

Cheers

Mike

[mowgli]

1. clean everything really well. you need clean oil & debris free faces on everything make sure the spark plugs are out & the bolt holes are clean
2. make sure the hydraulic lifters are moving, and squeeze them to make sure there isn't any oil in them.
3. place them gently into the holes, then make sure the head face is clean again.
4. put the head gasket in place
5. lower the head onto the block
6. put a small amount of gasket sealant on the top face of the head, place the valve caps & followers on the valves.
7. lower the cam carrier into place, and then put the head bolts (including the washers) in.
8. follow the torque procedure in haynes
9. time the camshaft up.
10. manually turn the engine over with a spanner to make sure its ok.
11. if its ok, then fit the cam cover, fill it with coolant, fit everything else.
12. turn it over on the starter
13. if all looks ok, then stick some spark plugs in & start it up.

[tommy8252]

Where are you located you may find a pnger near you could spare an hour or so to come run you through it as your doing it

[gunner1x1]

1. clean everything really well. you need clean oil & debris free faces on everything make sure the spark plugs are out & the bolt holes are clean
2. make sure the hydraulic lifters are moving, and squeeze them to make sure there isn't any oil in them.
3. place them gently into the holes, then make sure the head face is clean again.
4. put the head gasket in place
5. lower the head onto the block
6. put a small amount of gasket sealant on the top face of the head, place the valve caps & followers on the valves.
7. lower the cam carrier into place, and then put the head bolts (including the washers) in.
8. follow the torque procedure in haynes
9. time the camshaft up.
10. manually turn the engine over with a spanner to make sure its ok.
11. if its ok, then fit the cam cover, fill it with coolant, fit everything else.
12. turn it over on the starter
13. if all looks ok, then stick some spark plugs in & start it up.

tommy8252Where are you located you may find a pnger near you could spare an hour or so to come run you through it as your doing it.

Many thanks Mowgli, I could not have asked for more. I am now quiet confident that if I follow your guide I will be up and running in no time at all. :thumb:

Tommy I live up just under the highlands of Scotland.

[gunner1x1]

Mowgli wrote,

7. lower the cam carrier into place, and then put the head bolts (including the washers) in

I have tried getting head bolts with washers and although you can get them for other Vauxhalls I have not seen any washers for the Nova

One more thing is oil in the hydraulic lifter's, you say that they should not have any oil in them, so when the Haynes manual tells you to soak them in new engine oil, seeing as you have to squeeze it out before using them is it really worth soaking them?

Cheers

Mike

[gunner1x1]

Mowgli wrote,

7. lower the cam carrier into place, and then put the head bolts (including the washers) in

I have tried getting head bolts with washers and although you can get them for other Vauxhalls I have not seen any washers for the Nova

One more thing is oil in the hydraulic lifter's, you say that they should not have any oil in them, so when the Haynes manual tells you to soak them in new engine oil, seeing as you have to squeeze it out before using them is it really worth soaking them?

Cheers

Mike

Ah hello out there can anybody hear melol

[garyc]

you re-use the washers off the original bolts. they are about 4-5 mm thich.

[mowgli]

Mowgli wrote,

7. lower the cam carrier into place, and then put the head bolts (including the washers) in

I have tried getting head bolts with washers and although you can get them for other Vauxhalls I have not seen any washers for the Nova

One more thing is oil in the hydraulic lifter's, you say that they should not have any oil in them, so when the Haynes manual tells you to soak them in new engine oil, seeing as you have to squeeze it out before using them is it really worth soaking them?

Cheers

Mike


yup reuse the washers

make sure the oil has been squeezed out of the lifters, you can lightly oil them before they go in, but you use the oil pump on the engine to pump them up once you have assembled the engine. then by turning the engine on the starter, everything pumps up & sorts itself out properly..