Nova wont start!

[MARTIN KELSON]

Hi

Parked Nova into garage last October.
For those that dont know me its a 2.0 16v on Jenvey individual throttle bodies.
Went to start it other week & battery was knackered. New one arrived this week covered by warranty & fitted.
Went today to start it up and..........................No go!

Turns over fine but just no sign of it firing up.
Checked fuel is coming through, and we have spark.

Ran sweet when i parked it up so i'am out of ideas.

Was thinking stale fuel, went & stuck 5ltr of fresh in & still no joy. There was about 10ltr in the tank already so my next thought is to drain it & replace fully with fresh.

Anybody else any ideas????

Cheers

Martin

[Nobby]

seems strange if you have a spark and fuel mate id do what you said and drain the fuel and see what happens? Tow start??

[Lee]

Temp sensor?

Where have you checked for fuel, on the rail? Checked the plugs are wet? Can you plug the ole ECU in and run an injector test?

[blue_peg_16v]

obvious ones have you checkes the earths (the multi band things can degrade and although look good not earth)

[Lee]

obvious ones have you checkes the earths (the multi band things can degrade and although look good not earth)

Martin will be running standalone management Rich

[MARTIN KELSON]

Temp sensor?

Where have you checked for fuel, on the rail? Checked the plugs are wet? Can you plug the ole ECU in and run an injector test?

Fuel i checked by removing line from fuel rail & cranking & have fuel there.
Plugs not wet.

Not got a lead to plug laptop into. Probably wouldnt know what i was looking at anyway.

It was fine when i put in the garage which is getting me stumped.

Martin

[Lee]

Plugs not wet after a load of cranking? Id be looking at the injectors then, check the loom for any breaks. The FPR may also have gone fubar and isn't building any fuel pressure?

Also i'm not sure whether a wasted spark coilpack on your standalone will fire without a crank sensor signal but shut off the injectors? So crank sensor and loom may be worth checking as well.

[Novasport]

Are you running a crank sensor on this? If so, its a likely suspect.

[peester]

Try disconnecting the injectors from the loom. Then reconnect. Needed to do this once. Cant remember if i had to put ignition on, then off before reconnecting..
Steve from GWR suggested i try that..

[MARTIN KELSON]

Try disconnecting the injectors from the loom. Then reconnect. Needed to do this once. Cant remember if i had to put ignition on, then off before reconnecting..
Steve from GWR suggested i try that..

Hi Dave

Will give it a try :)


Yes i do run a cranksensor.

[blue_peg_16v]

Martin will be running standalone management Rich

true but dosent it still need the gearbox earth?

[peester]

^Yep. But If earths were bad/none existant martin wouldnt even be cranking over. Or very weakly at best.

[Spudly]

More asking a question than offering advice here, but could the tappets have drained themselves of oil whilst stood, if theyre empty the valves wont be doing anything will they, just wondering if that may be an issue as when i helped Porter clean mine out on the cav he explained if we didnt fill and pump up all of them back up, then the engine wouldnt fire for ages until it had built up pressure and filled them back up!

As said more a question but its another theory to think on, maybe another few goes/check oil and such might fire it up?

[tommy8252]

Try pulling it off rather than continuous cranking, to avoid burning your quarter and killing your new battery.

[Southie]

Alarm/immobiliser issue maybe?

[MARTIN KELSON]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Will maybe pop to parents later or tomorrow & try few more things you have pointed out.
Damn annoying as was fine when I put it in garage!

[Adam]

If your getting fuel when cranking and a spark, that suggests the crank sensor is fine.
What management are you running? Maybe the injector earth is dodgy somewhere.

[peester]

apparently no fuel when cranking..
If mart has a multimeter you can check voltages at injector plugs - worth looking at.. may need two people that though

[MARTIN KELSON]

If your getting fuel when cranking and a spark, that suggests the crank sensor is fine.
What management are you running? Maybe the injector earth is dodgy somewhere.

Iam running MBE management mapped by John Toovey who knows his sh1t.

Last time i drove the car was back from his place when he set the throttle pot for me. Ran a dream home :)
May have to give him a call to see what his first thoughts would be.


I have fuel when cranking at the rail, took a hose off & cranked fuel into a jerry can & was fine.

[Adam]

Yep, so the ecu is "seeing" the engine rpm, suggesting the crank sensor is firing. Sounds like the injectors arent firing for whatever reason.

Pretty sure they are powered from the same 12v that feeds the fuel pump relay, so maybe they arent getting earthed "fired". Although im not 100% sure how MBE handles the fuel pump/relay/injector 12v.

[peester]

have you been up to it today martin?.. btw you at dubfreeze sunday?

[MARTIN KELSON]

No not been today.

Going to pop in tomorrow after work for an hour & have another look.
Think first job maybe to drain the fuel & put some fresh in.

When Toovey came to mine origonally to do a few set ups, first thing he asked was how old the fuel was, apparently there very suspect to stale fuel.

Where is Dubfreeze Dave?

[peester]

hmm.. never had that problem with mine - the fuel thing. Do try the injector thing though - i still cant remember why but its something to do with a reset/loop thing i dont know..

Dubfreeze is in stafford, county show ground. See midlands room for info.

[peester]

looks like i tempted fate with my replies on here..
suffered the same problem today with mine. - although its kind of a:
"crankingcrankingcrankingpopcrankingpoppopcrankingb angcrankingchugpopcrankingBANG!
oooook hmm.

[MARTIN KELSON]

After speaking to John Toovey earlier in the week I was advised to drain & replace the old fuel & stick some new plugs in.
Went today armed with 5ltr of new fuel & new plugs. Fitted & was all excited expecting it to jump into life & still nothing.
Removed a couple of plugs for a look & there bone dry. Was expecting after abit of cranking for them to be wet. This correct?

Broke a plug lead now too. If it was broke before or on it's way out surely it would still try to fire on three?

Will contact Magnecor to see what they can supply me.

Left it after that as was p1ssed of & may have done something I would regret! :)

Iam out of ideas now really with it.

Martin

[peester]

Yes plugs should be wet and hum of fuel martin..
As said, seems injectors arent squirting...?
I think its around 400-500 rpm that the starter needs to be cranking at for mbe to even 'wake' so no injectors nothing; if you plug easimap into it whilst cranking we'de see what its turning at..
Get the new leads; try it. If no joy i have an old laptop with easimap on it and a cable and could at least come up and do some screen dumps of the info. on screen as its cranking - can be emailed round to people who may spot the bother..?
Unless toovey gets to you first like..
Im charging the battery tonight, (though it tested 82% starting power and nearly 12.7-odd volts) and will fit a new earth strap from bulkhead to battery. See if it speeds cranking somewhat.

[fearless]

Still not got this heap running yet Martin!!!

Lets go back to basics - Assuming you've got good compression - you need Fuel and a spark !!

Have you checked you've got good fuel pressure at the fuel rail ?

Have you tested for a spark ?

Ecu's require a stable voltage to operate correctly - Sometimes that voltage can drop during cranking - (Might be worth connecting Jump leads from a running car) - I reallise you've put a new battery on, but is that fully charged ?

I've had a major problem with an Astra J ECU at work - Turns out the software reprogram was corrupted because the voltage dropped below 12.5V during programming !!!! - They really can be that sensative to Voltages


Dave

[MARTIN KELSON]

It has been running Dave. Did a massive 400 miles last year!!

Not started it since October when it went into garage & now wong go.

I have fuel getting to the rail, removed pipe from rail & cranked & i'am getting fuel. Not checked the presure actually since Toovey set it. Will screw my gauge in to see whats happening.
Did test one plug last week & had spark, but today i have noticed one lead has broken at the top where it goes down the head to the plug. Did a 'modification' & still wont fire. I suppose if one lead was out it would still try to fire on three though.

Seems to be cranking quick enough & voltage doesnt seem to be dropping & yes its fully charged. Battery permanently plugged into a trickle charger.

When old battery died i did have no battery connected for a few weeks. I persume i've not lost anything from ecu's memory.

Next thing is to order new leads, then i will try jumping from another car, but i dont think thats the problem.

Should plugs be wet after abit of cranking Dave?

[Adam]

If injectors are firing then the plugs will be soaked after youve sat cranking it for a while.

[MARTIN KELSON]

If injectors are firing then the plugs will be soaked after youve sat cranking it for a while.

Plugs were brand new today.
After cranking few times i removed two of them & they were still like i had just taken them out of the packet. Clean & bone dry

Sounds maybe then like the injectors arent supplying the juice.

Wonder why?

How can i test an injector? Can I remove one at a time from rail & crank & see if i get fuel or is it not that simple?

[fearless]

You could remove the fuel rail and injectors and try cranking the engine - if the injectors are working ok - you'll have a fine mist of petrol all over your engine bay !!!

Wiring to injectors can be tested with a Noid light plugged into the injector plug - basically because an injector fires for a fraction of a second, a multi meter or normal bulb wont react quick enough - A noid light is basically an LED which flashes when an injector is pulsed by the ecu

If you were a bit closer you could have borrowed mine


Sounds like you need to connect up a laptop and and check that your ECU map is correct and check the data list parameters



Dave

[Lee]

I thought we had already come to the conclusion the injectors arn't firing two pages ago? lol

You cant remove them from the rail because you'll end up with a gaping hole which fuel will pee out of, but seeing as you are not getting fuel on any of the injectors, i would summarise its not an injector problem, it is an electrical problem.

Therefore, you need to check the injector wiring harness is plugged in, check the ECU is plugged in, and after you've done that, the best bet is an old laptop with the software on it so you can run an injector test to make sure the circuit is working, and also check the cranking RPM as fearless suggested, as that played havoc with mine when my starter motor began to die and wouldn't crank at top speed (instead it caught fire lol)

I'm not familiar with MBE but I would send them an email and ask them what parameters would stop the injectors from firing. They may be able to point you in the direction of a faulty sensor, maybe the cam sensor?

[MARTIN KELSON]

If i get chance tomorrow i will check all relays & fuses again just to make sure.

Failing that i may remove the mount that hold fuel rail to bodies, pop the injectors out & try cranking.

After that i think a call to Toovey to come down with laptop.

Fooking modified cars & engines :(

[Lee]

Injectors will be running from the ECU Martin, there won't be any relays to check. (unless MBE harnesses are hugely different from DTA) Just ensure the injector loom is plugged in properly, and that the main plug on the ECU isn't loose.

[MARTIN KELSON]

Injectors will be running from the ECU Martin, there won't be any relays to check. (unless MBE harnesses are hugely different from DTA) Just ensure the injector loom is plugged in properly, and that the main plug on the ECU isn't loose.

There are some relays on the MBE loom. Havent actually checked the main plug to the ECU :)

Injectors seem to be plugged in fine.

Wish the car was here where i live so i could go look into things now!

[fearless]

Which MBE do you use and I'll have a quick look at the wiring diagram

[MARTIN KELSON]

Which MBE do you use and I'll have a quick look at the wiring diagram

If i remember correctly its the MBE967

[Southie]

Just a thought and could be wrong but when the battery goes flat on different management does it go back to a default setup? It might need plugging back in to the software to put your adjusted settings back in as it could of gone into a limp mode of some sort, as said just a thought and probably ballsacks lol

[peester]

MBE doesnt default with the lack of battery - i knock my negative off each time i run it up..
Its true about the cranking speed; needs to be bob on. Injectors dont fire nothing if not cranking quick enough.
I just wish i could remember what that ruddy disconnect reconnect (on the injectors) method was that steve hurst told me about that once..

In a small update with mine , once im back from dubfreeze im replacing the spark plugs, had advice that its those that plague my starting problem.

[peester]

Was the plugs..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/peester/IMG00143-20110220-1231.jpg
Fired up straight away and revs like a bitch now

[Adam]

Foook me Dave, that needs mapping,Lol.

[peester]

yesh.. yesh i know. This rollercoaster is still (just) on the rails. Some updates/news/progress in few weeks.

Ive emailed steve @ gwr to remind me about that injector lark ive been on about, for martin.

[peester]

Steve has replied:

" check the fuel pump/injector relay for type, mbe is quite specific.

Disconnect all the injectors and during cranking check for 12v on all of the terminals in the injector connectors"


Maybe the relay is fused? I dunno but see if you get 12v at the injector plugs.

[Lee H]

My mates DTA used to run a standard Vauxhall fuel pump relay and when that died gave the same symptoms. Assume MBE uses a fuel pump relay, could be at fault?

[MARTIN KELSON]

Right been back today (much to the mrs delight!)
I was conviced it was now due to injectors not firing so checked fuses again, made sure the relays in the mbe loom were pushed home. All seemed ok.

Next I removed fuel rail complete with injectors, cranked, blew injector from rail and pissed fuel everywhere!!
Put back in and cable tied so pressure couldn't pop them of again.

I had put some card under them so I could see fuel, cranked & fuel was there.

Put back together, primed & covered engine with fuel. Split two o rings on injectors. Got a spare inlet manifold from XE so replaced & tried again.

First press of the starter button it jumped into life & idled best it ever from cold!!!

Really happy it started but I still have no idea what I actually did!

Thanks everybody for your input. Don't think I would have thought about injectors not firing.

Cheers

Martin

[peester]

behold!
glad its sorted. For the both of us today then.