View Full Version : UK scientists invent artificial petrol
Discuss (http://crave.cnet.co.uk/cartech/uk-researchers-invent-artificial-petrol-costing-19p-per-litre-50002478/)
Brilliant! And seeing as it emits 30 percent less co2, they can lower the f*ckin road tax n'all!
But seriously, I can't see it ever reaching the pumps. The revenue from fuel taxes must be massive. And the government probably couldnt do without it. So even if this bead juice stuff ever did get the go, it would only be raped so hard by tax it would still be expensive?
MattBrown
08-02-11, 09:58 AM
Brilliant! And seeing as it emits 30 percent less co2, they can lower the f*ckin road tax n'all!
But seriously, I can't see it ever reaching the pumps. The revenue from fuel taxes must be massive. And the government probably couldnt do without it. So even if this bead juice stuff ever did get the go, it would only be raped so hard by tax it would still be expensive?
19p per litre, thats with no VAT, Tax, duty, and making it on a desk in some lab.
Oil companies will make sure it never reaches the market, same as the hydrogen powererd car.
Shell bought all the rights IIRC, and have put them in their vaultlol
Think there was something about this on Top Gear the other week
Shell bought all the rights IIRC, and have put them in their vaultlol
Whether that is true or not I don't know but the sentiment is true.
Oil companies are perhaps the single biggest reason why we've not made as much progress with replacement fuels or renewable energy as perhaps we should (when compared with other engineering feats over the last 50 years).
They have been buying up research outfits and small business for a long time to ensure they own the rights to anything that may actually work out.
Nothing will change. These ideas will be throttled until oil is running out, then the replacment will cost just as much or more and will be owned by, yup, the oil companies :roll:
Note how they call themselves "energy" companies these days lol
The thing I find interesting about this is the claim it can be used in a normal car engine with little or no modification, which IMO is the only way you'll get mass-takeon of a replacement fuel type before oil runs out or the price gets too high and people are forced to switch. Although I suppose if the oil runs out then no plastic etc, but thats another dilemma lol
I guess the only way to cut out the oil companies would be to have electric cars, powered by either solar/wind/tidal or Nuclear electricity.
We'd never be allowed to switch properly over to nuclear - the environmental campainers would see to that. Mind you I might side with them on that. Apparently we don't have the funds to decomission the end of life reactors as it is let alone run them safely on the French scale....
Talking of which, safety fears has always been a stopper for major investment in nuclear power here, yet the French have plenty that are pretty close to us in physical terms let alone fall out zone lol
Hydro electric should be what we invest our efforts in as it works and provides consistant electricity generation, unlike those rediculous wind turbines that everyone seems so in love with these days.
wave & sea current energy is where its at.... well, in the 70's it was, until some idiot in a govt dept did a poor calculation of cost & worked out it was more expensive than nuclear, so it died..... then they found out the sums were massively wrong.....
in france. the nuclear power stations are in private hands i believe.... this is exactly what will happen in the uk... the old public ones will be horrendous for evermore.....
this new fuel will only run on specially adapted cars, simply because loads of old ones won't run on H. and very few new ones would work on it either..
there is enough clever science in the world to be using fuel cell & catalyst technology to do away with the piston engine, which is a triumph of engineering over design.. and the whole KERS thing needs looking at desperately, the braking effort turned in acceleration using the rear axle of a fwd car, with a small turbo diesel & a clever hydro (or variomatic) transmission would see crazy mpg.
BUT to save the planet, why not get rid of all the crappy anti car traffic calming measures, and have a gps based speed limiter..for 30mph in town & 20mph near schools. then use computers to actually manage traffic flow in a sensible way, and maybe tidy up some serious traffic holdups.....
then get some decent minds on the issue of producing decent sat navs, because they send people miles further than necessary, last week, one tried to send me 30% further than i needed to go, because it was adamant i needed to go up a motorway, and not up an A road.
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 07:29 PM
Oil companies will make sure it never reaches the market, same as the hydrogen powererd car.
There are lots of quite fundamental engineering problems with using Hydrogen as a replacement for conventional fuels. The volumetric energy content of even liquid hydrogen is significantly lower than petrol, meaning significantly larger tanks would be required, this coupled with the insulation required make them far too large to be practical. Then there is the whole distribution issue and we haven't got on to production either...
any idea on the efficiency of using electricity to extract hydrogen from water?
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 07:37 PM
any idea on the efficiency of using electricity to extract hydrogen from water?
Electrolysis is approx 70% efficient as a process, efficiency of producing grid electricity is approx 35%, so overall efficiencies are very poor. The majority of hydrogen is produced via Steam Methane Reformation, which uses natural gas as the hydrogen source, but produces CO2 as the by-product. There are a few projects that currently use the CO2 to force extra oil out of wells and keep the CO2 trapped underground. However electrolysis using renewable energy sources is the only true way to produce 'green' hydrogen.
right.... so its smoke & mirrors so the scientist gets his research budget for next year....
in france. the nuclear power stations are in private hands i believe.... this is exactly what will happen in the uk...
Already has, pretty sure most of our private power industry is owned by EDF lol
jack. a family friend used to work in power trading, and they were warning the labour govt that they'd need to have new nuclear power stations up & running by 2015, or face blackouts.......
they gave the nuclear plants to whoever would take them, to lessen the cleanup bill..... sellafield is a monumental cleanup on its own.
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 07:58 PM
Just read the link, the use of nano-technology is an attempt to overcome the isssues surrounding the cryogenic temperatures of liquid hydrogen, volumetric energy density is still a limiting factor though.
apparently this stuff manages to hold huge quantities of hydrogen, and is safe to store at normal temp/pressure, then it gets heated up & lets the gas out.. not sure if the pellets are reusable though..
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 09:02 PM
Not a dig at you, but "huge quantities" needs quantifying, as even liquid hydrogen only has about a quarter of the volumetric energy density of petrol.
they were on the radio being interviewed.. i don't know how much huge is, but they sounded like they were onto something impressive...
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 09:28 PM
From what I gather the hydrogen content is 6wt% which isn't exactly huge, I think we're still some way off hyrogen power for the nation yet :thumb:
All these great ideas with hydrogen cars and ivented fuel will be used one day but not in our life times lol, it will only really take off when there is no oil left. thats what i think any way.
kiwinova
08-02-11, 10:19 PM
All these great ideas with hydrogen cars and ivented fuel will be used one day but not in our life times lol, it will only really take off when there is no oil left. thats what i think any way.
+rep for knowing the truthlol
At the end of the day there are many potentially fantastic fuel/energy alternatives but, these will never be used because of company profits.
A prime example is that cars are still using engines based on a principle that is over 100 years old, the fuel is pretty much the same and because of modern car weights, the fuel consumption of a new corsa is no better than a 50 year old mini. Where is half a centuries engineering progress? (except safety of course!)
I am a moany old git
kiwinova
08-02-11, 10:33 PM
If everyone was that bothered about the prices of fuel they wouldn't be driving about in cars that are not economical for example anything over 2L or with a turbo
If people are willing to drive a car like that they are willing to pay x amount of pennines more a litre
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 10:43 PM
All these great ideas with hydrogen cars and ivented fuel will be used one day but not in our life times lol, it will only really take off when there is no oil left. thats what i think any way.
Conventional oil stocks have around 40yrs left in them, so it will more than likely happen within our lifetimes! :thumb:
kiwinova
08-02-11, 10:45 PM
Conventional oil stocks have around 40yrs left in them, so it will more than likely happen within our lifetimes! :thumb:
If it does i will eat my hair;)lol
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 10:53 PM
If it does i will eat my hair;)lol
I hope you've got the kind of hankering that only hair can satisfy, NOM NOM NOM lol
The thing with oil is it won't be a case of produce produce produce oh there we go its now all gone, there's none left. It'll peter out as the cost gets prohibitively expensive (i.e. to source). The problem is, can you think of anything you do or use that doesn't involve oil in some way? Probably not. It'll be all well and good being forced to build bold new cars running on hydrogen, electricity, garbage, donkey poop, whatever; but if you have no oil to make plastic components its going to be a toughie.
Bring back the days of 100% metal/wood vehicles and steam power lol
dhdev (Oli)
08-02-11, 11:02 PM
The thing with oil is it won't be a case of produce produce produce oh there we go its now all gone, there's none left. It'll peter out as the cost gets prohibitively expensive (i.e. to source). The problem is, can you think of anything you do or use that doesn't involve oil in some way? Probably not. It'll be all well and good being forced to build bold new cars running on hydrogen, electricity, garbage, donkey poop, whatever; but if you have no oil to make plastic components its going to be a toughie.
Bring back the days of 100% metal/wood vehicles and steam power lol
You've hit the nail on the head there. The use of oil as a fuel will dwindle as prices soar, but the need for plastic components will continue the need to extract albeit in smaller quantities. By then the major players will have moved on to the 'new technologies' as a way of raping joe public.
kiwinova
08-02-11, 11:03 PM
The thing with oil is it won't be a case of produce produce produce oh there we go its now all gone, there's none left. It'll peter out as the cost gets prohibitively expensive (i.e. to source). The problem is, can you think of anything you do or use that doesn't involve oil in some way? Probably not. It'll be all well and good being forced to build bold new cars running on hydrogen, electricity, garbage, donkey poop, whatever; but if you have no oil to make plastic components its going to be a toughie.
Bring back the days of 100% metal/wood vehicles and steam power lol
Like Yorkie said all the hydrogen garbage will not happen in own life time, so why do we care, by the time the oil has run out i'm sure they will have thought of another idea that is better than hydrogen, electricity ect
kiwinova
08-02-11, 11:04 PM
lego blocks FTW no oil needed lol
lego blocks FTW no oil needed lol
Remind me how plastic is made again? lol
kiwinova
08-02-11, 11:11 PM
Remind me how plastic is made again? lol
:( i will go back in my corner
calibra-keith
08-02-11, 11:26 PM
mowgli - my old man was on about hydrogen from water for ages but i never paid much attention lol, but then he came round one day and showed me how to make the cell from bits in shed (not the best stuff i had to use) and plumbed in to my corsa derv at time seemed to work and looking about on net and from what he says makes the diesel burn more efficient ??, he says it works great as he is playing around with it for some big yank (petrol) no idea how it will get on but im going to play around a little with the idea.
Remind me how plastic is made again? lol
we are sat over some of the richest coal seams on the planet...... the guide at snibson discovery park, coalville leics, which includes a former coal mine, reckons coal is a way better source of material for making plastics than oil ever is......
during ww2, the germans were making petrol from coal.
Yep, but again coal is a finite resource so we shouldn't want to rely on it. Plus China has massive reserves, and considering most people shy away from electric/battery tech as they're worried about China having a large hand in the production... lol
just wait until carbon capture technology gets usable..... then some clever scientists will take loads of co2 & with a few test tubes & a large glass jar with some dry ice in it, they will be able to add enough hydrogen & make loads of fuel........
if they ever manage it that is....
Welsh Dan
09-02-11, 08:30 PM
Screw all these fancy fuels and stuff. I'm waiting for a diesel-electric or petrol-electric car with regenerative breaking and a 20-50 mile battery range - the combustion engine can provide the electricity for anything beyond that. All the technologies required already exist too!
I'm working with a company making a 'low energey use' car... its got 300Kg's of LIPO batteries in there totalling 340Volts and the ability to run inexcess of 100NM per wheel lol.
Its farcical in its 'green' credentials due to the way lipo comes to life and also all the milage I do going back and fourth to them lol. Not to mention all the carbon in the car etc.
The range extender vehicle like Dan mentioned will be the interim way forwards where you have a small extremely efficient generator providing juice for the batteries/motors
i'm hoping the whole kers thing filters down onto real cars soon, but the williams flywheel seems to be a good way to go..
if you have wheel motors, would there be a safe & legal of some form of capacitance braking, that will regenerate the energy??
i did see an experimental bus years back, it had some enormous accumulator and hydraulic pumps fitted to the axles, then the high pressure was reused to accelerate.. but as usual, weight & space wrecked the idea...
regen braking is not permitted as the only stopping mechanism, you'd still need traditional stopping equipment. Its use is already utilised with glass mat batteries and then using engine regen to mass charge the battery for use with things like REAL electric turbos etc.
thats what i thought... they were messing with electric braking on hgv's years back at MIRA, but nothing commercial came of it.....
I thought retarders were fitted to HGV's as an assistant to the friction brakes, if only to reduce the wear on the pads/discs to increase service times etc
they have retarders, but there was some serious development on electric brakes. they would be way more reliable, no freeze ups etc.....
retarders are better at holding a set speed on a big hill than as a viable brake though....
ahhhhhhh thats clearerrerer.
imagine the potential energy available from electric braking an hgv electrically :)
They need tramline style conductors to put power back into the grid lol
Welsh Dan
10-02-11, 10:22 AM
There's be about 13M joules before losses were taken into account lol.
Roughly translated a fully loaded 44ton wagon stopping from 56mph over 20 seconds could kick out up to about 650KW for that duration.
We just need to wait until man discovers how to harness the power of the warp core. :d
We just need to wait until man discovers how to harness the power of the warp core. :d
Give Jack his login back lol
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