View Full Version : Turbo v XE
Why am i thinking of turbo'ing the new track slag!?!
Talk me out of it!
Pistol Pete
10-12-10, 05:18 PM
Dont do it. When i said i was fitting an XE to mine to use it for track days, my mate said you want a LET. IMO it would be a waste on a track. An XE will be tractionless enough i reckon lol
Xe on TBs is what i want.
But i have a turbo engine in vgc sitting there with no home. Its getting a freshen up tomorrow, new rings, HG, bolts, rod bolts, maybe shells and a damn goodclean...
Its going to be too tempting having it just sitting there i think!
Fitted with the right gearbox and diff, i cant see why the LET wouldnt be more than perfect for the job, epecially yours!
Southie
10-12-10, 05:28 PM
You've had a turbo before so know what there all about, so go for it IMO just get some good suspension and decent tyres and you'll be fine.
as long as it doesnt have a big daft turbo on and insane bhp figures i think a LET would be pretty good, the stock setup has a pretty good spread of power doesnt it?
Sell the let before you get tempted :d
Or i can use it if it needs a new home ;)
Fit the let, what else are you going to worry about?
I think a revvy XE will be more fun than a standard LET so your end up pushing the LET to the same sort of spec as last time?
Next your be saying a 1600xe lol
I'd turbo it as well, not many people who have had a LET go back to an XE.....
Pistol Pete
10-12-10, 06:01 PM
Xe on TBs is what i want.
But i have a turbo engine in vgc sitting there with no home. Its getting a freshen up tomorrow, new rings, HG, bolts, rod bolts, maybe shells and a damn goodclean...
Its going to be too tempting having it just sitting there i think!
I hope to upgrading to some at some point in the future.
I say do it for no other reason then why not? If youve got the engine already & a shell, we all know your LET motor is more then strong enough going by the abuse you give it Paul lol saves having to freshen up a boggo XE & F20 combo.
LET fo sho. Even if you didn't already have a good one sitting there.
Shame there's not a 3rd option. 1200i has to be the obvious choice? lol
Ive sold my proper LET, i have a rebuilt Xe and tomorrow im giving the cav LET a freshen up rings etc.
The LET owes me next to nothing.
I have have sold my atb f28 but have the cavs f28 sat there...
Standard LET with F20
I think he intends to drive the car hard though :eek:
Well if he builds a C20xe it'll be 200bhp or more so why not use it on the LET?
I know its torque that kills boxes but I think it'll be alright on a standard LET
Id not use a f20 on it unless it was quaife as i intend for it to last for more than one lap!
david dixon
10-12-10, 07:11 PM
LET Paul, there is no thinking it it for me!
David.
bainyboy sr
10-12-10, 07:14 PM
i want to see the new slag lol
Southie
10-12-10, 07:14 PM
I think this needs a poll to make your decision harder lol
my mates ran 400+bhp in his corsa, hes now selling up and wants a decent spec XE as alot more fun.
less things to go wrong, better power delivery from the xe than the LET...especially if on chipsets comapred to management. ive seen tb'd novas drilling evos on the track. a few lads i know are going from lets back to XE's now. imo a proper xe would be better than an LET get a decent box and diff on a half decent xe and your laughing
mk1nova_rich
10-12-10, 09:57 PM
N/A engines always give better power delivery on track IMO
When I was talking to you mate we were saying how much hassle a LET can be lol
Admittdley though my let on a f20 in the mk1 withstood alot of abuse on the track!
But imagine the noise of the xe on bodies screaming round the track and it will be something different for you ;)
djbrowney
11-12-10, 12:14 AM
haha told you so lol
you will listen one day rent boy !
david dixon
11-12-10, 12:24 AM
tbh when i noticed he was breaking it i knew it was only a matter of time before another was built......... even i didn't think it would be this quick ha ha
David.
nova_saloon
11-12-10, 01:20 AM
its a toughy this one, but good luck with it i personally stick with a xe because less weight over the front wheels and that plus they sound gorgeous and more reliable, but turbo is just fun becuase it has booooost!
you know what i would do mate as spoke to you about it on the phone.
And to help just listen once more lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAaD9Pe-kVQ
you know what i would do mate as spoke to you about it on the phone.
And to help just listen once more lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAaD9Pe-kVQ
A turbo engine on full boost sounds pretty good too...... Lol
If you do fit a Let Paul, then id try and keep it sensible-ish power.
260ish? Phase 2?
You know your old let was just too much power and torque for a track nova.
Let it, look at SBDRob's, big let power and bit of a track tool.
I personally thought twitchells astra was the worst car ive ever been in round a track.
Let it, look at SBDRob's, big let power and bit of a track tool.
Not a nova though.
Really? I've only seen it at Combe and a few vids.. Car was never really 100% tho was it.. If it done right i can see it being a tool.
What was it like as a passenger then?
Not a nova though.
True, but if its well set up with a good power then surely a Nova would be awesome.
you know what i would do mate as spoke to you about it on the phone.
And to help just listen once more lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAaD9Pe-kVQ
My engine will sound quite similiar once its built :cool:
problem with chips though is boost tends to be on and off atleast with a mappable ecu you can control the boost alot better. worse thing on a track would be to end up coming off boost then having to wait for the thing to pick up again.
scott.parker
11-12-10, 11:19 AM
Xe on TBs is what i want.
But i have a turbo engine in vgc sitting there with no home. Its getting a freshen up tomorrow, new rings, HG, bolts, rod bolts, maybe shells and a damn goodclean...
Its going to be too tempting having it just sitting there i think!
If you make the let all clean and reliable (less power no hoses bursting etc)
And can be bothered to mine and do it, you can swap the engine for the one in mine! STRAIGHT SWAP.. lol
What tbs scott and management ring me 07595947117
dj_wudgey
11-12-10, 01:56 PM
45's all the way
yea i agree matey!! or bodie's aswell but 45's ftw!!
MattBrown
11-12-10, 02:56 PM
If you make the let all clean and reliable (less power no hoses bursting etc)
And can be bothered to mine and do it, you can swap the engine for the one in mine! STRAIGHT SWAP.. lol
Exactly this.
Remember january oulton park?
Me and scott looking at his suspention, and you blowing fooking hoses off every other lap lol
I personally dont understand why you broke the yellow one.
However, for the money a 280bhp xe is, you could have 8 280bhp lets.
I have a standard c20xe on twin 45s with some mild cams for my track car, this will do for me.
But after having 400bhp, having 200 or 250 will be boring imo:cool:
ashjones
11-12-10, 03:19 PM
ive got a let corsa just fitted a dump valve and i dnt know were the breather pipe goes to from the top of the dump valve does anyone know ?
start your own thread lol
But you need to get a T peice, take it off vac line for the fuel regulator
Imo paul an xe is going to feel slow compared to the let, you will just keep wanting more and more
However, for the money a 280bhp xe is, you could have 8 280bhp lets.
I have a standard c20xe on twin 45s with some mild cams for my track car, this will do for me.
But after having 400bhp, having 200 or 250 will be boring imo:cool:
just because he has a 280bhp or so let doesnt mean he has to have a 280bhp xe. if you go for an let the chipsets are crap for track as you cant control boost as well so you'll get the laggy feel, but you can build a relatively reasonable XE on carbs or if pushed boat out bodies and power will be there all the time, car will drive a hell of a lot better too rather than having to wait for it to come on boost then you go.
if went with just a stock xe then wasting your time over the let, but a 200-220bhp xe with a dif would make a very quick and responsive car compared to a heavier let and 6spd
matt - buy my pistons and have a proper xe haha
Z22se with a supercharger?
craig green
11-12-10, 04:20 PM
N/A engines always give better power delivery on track IMO
Amen.
Rick Draper
11-12-10, 05:10 PM
Paul this is what i was going to do with my old corsa shell. I was looking to sell the LET and fit a XE on TB's. IMHO just makes so much more sense in a tack car. Probably throw a set of rods in it and cams and that would have been it. Makes is quite a disposable engine as well.
BRoadGhost
11-12-10, 11:16 PM
It's only taken the masses about 6 years to catch up & understand why you don't want less revs, reliability, but more torque in a fcuking nova.
I scrabble about at 65 WOT on these greasy road conditions IN A STRAIGHT LINE. No fcuking wonder people QQ about why a bigblock nova "doesn't handle". Pump all the focus into chasing BHP / TORQUE that won't pull it through corners better when the drivetrain / chassis hasn't been upgraded by the same proportion.
It's only taken the masses about 6 years to catch up & understand why you don't want less revs, reliability, but more torque in a fcuking nova.
I scrabble about at 65 WOT on these greasy road conditions IN A STRAIGHT LINE. No fcuking wonder people QQ about why a bigblock nova "doesn't handle". Pump all the focus into chasing BHP / TORQUE that won't pull it through corners better when the drivetrain / chassis hasn't been upgraded by the same proportion.
Eh?
^^^ I thought that lol
XE on tb's IMO, probably take more of a caining on a track before going wrong than a LET
Eh?
Translation:
It's only taken the masses about 6 years to catch up & understand why you don't want less revs, reliability, but more torque in a fcuking nova.
In laymans terms, torque is acceleration, hp is speed. Acceleration is what you want (IMO)
I scrabble about at 65 WOT on these greasy road conditions IN A STRAIGHT LINE. No fcuking wonder people QQ about why a bigblock nova "doesn't handle". Pump all the focus into chasing BHP / TORQUE that won't pull it through corners better when the drivetrain / chassis hasn't been upgraded by the same proportion.
At 65mph wide open throttle (WOT) his tyres light up on these **** UK roads lol no wonder people carp on about bigblocks are shÃ*t. Why put all the effort into chasing ponies when the chassis setup is a joke & lets down the spec of the engine.
Basically thats my take or Mr Ghosts post.
BRoadGhost
14-12-10, 07:44 PM
If "torque is acceleration" & "Acceleration is what you want (IMO)" are your understanding of it then fair enough, but it's not how I see it.
The associated lower rev range with turbo Vs N/a [aside from response] and inherent higher torque means the twisting force [slip] WILL make the car slower than an equally powered N/a counterpart in this instance, providing there are no driver aids.
This "instance" being a relatively high output engine, in a relatively lightweight car with decidedly average mechanical grip. Assuming you're not on some bloody great 10J's with 285 slicks.
In laymans terms, torque is acceleration, hp is speed. Acceleration is what you want (IMO)
Sort of. F1 cars have about 280Nm of torque. Torque is turning force. Power = Torque X RPM. They achieve the higher power by revving to silly speeds, around 16-16.5k this year I think? Which equals about 850bhp, this means an F1 car is a little 4oz hammer smacking a tiny nail in 270 times a second. If this little 4oz hammer comes across a big fat **** off nail it won't do anything too fast.
However if you have a 16lb sledge hammer (800Nm of torque, 200 bhp, so a max rpm of 1300) it will smash it in straight away, in one hit. It can't however hit in quite as many tiny nails per second.
Size of your hammer is your torque, torque x hits per second is your power, and your nail is your resistive force. Put an F1 car on a big enough hill towing a couple tonne and it won't get anywhere, put our fictitious 16lb sledgie in the F1 car and it'll go up there like there isn't even a hill there. Go back onto flat land and the 4oz machine gun hammer will fly away.
What you actually want out of an engine, is area under the torque curve, a good stable high torque curve across your rev range, how much torque and how much power depends on your application, but a turbo engine at lower revs and the same power has a higher torque, meaning it's potential acceleration is greater, however that extra torque will also break traction more easily so an N/A would be easier to handle and a turbo would have more potential.
so the new 1600 turbo 'world' engines with their much lower engine speeds will give some serious transmission troubles...
so the new 1600 turbo 'world' engines with their much lower engine speeds will give some serious transmission troubles...
Only if they produce the same power as before, if they have lower power (which is the point of going 1600 I'd imagine, and I'm sure has been mentioned) They will have lower torque, lower RPM. edit: If you think the old 2l units were running high boost pressures at near standard CR, the 1600's would have to have huge, laggy blowers pushing impossible pressures to produce more torque than they had before.
Everyone seems to think torque is produced at low RPM and then slowly and magically disappears and turns into BHP at high RPM, in an ideal engine they will peak around the same time, at the rev range that you're actually using.
man you need to read autosport in more detail...
the fia are planning a 1600 world engine.. as in a manufacturer can have a basic powerplant & with limited mods, can use it in wrc, f1, possibly leMans, definitely touring cars......
the new f1 powerplants are going to be 1600 turbo units with a 12000 rpm limit. i imagine they will easily beat current f1 power, but they are planning to restrict them to give 30% better fuel economy than the current engines...
ps, you don't need to preach to a lot of us about torque curves....a revvy engine is fine on a fast flowing race track, but useless most other places.
Lot of good info here for us that arn't in the know as much.
man you need to read autosport in more detail...
the fia are planning a 1600 world engine.. as in a manufacturer can have a basic powerplant & with limited mods, can use it in wrc, f1, possibly leMans, definitely touring cars......
the new f1 powerplants are going to be 1600 turbo units with a 12000 rpm limit. i imagine they will easily beat current f1 power, but they are planning to restrict them to give 30% better fuel economy than the current engines...
ps, you don't need to preach to a lot of us about torque curves....a revvy engine is fine on a fast flowing race track, but useless most other places.
30% better fuel economy implies 30% less fuel and therefore less power... which explains the 30% lower rev limit, I would imagine torque will be around the same.
I don't read autosport atm, money is tight this year, tighter than I thought in fact :p PVW/total vauxhall/autosport adds up quite a bit over a month.
It's not so much 'revvy' as more power and less torque, where a flat slightly higher torque curve across the rev range you're using, dictated by your gearing produce better results than a slightly higher peak power. If they can get that wrong in f1 I figure it's worth mentioning, especially since most people look at a rolling road printout for the one box that says what the peak power is and nothing else.
The first problem with a nova is its narrow track, this DOES cause issues when you start putting more weight over the front wheels.
The second problem is like most vauxhalls its fwd so its never going to be well suited a turbo engine.
What Robs astra proved is that boost vs throttle works very well, I know the handling wasn't upto much but that said I've driven another well sorted phase 3.5 Astra round the ring and it was 10 times smoother round there than my nova was.
A tb'd xe like Olly had works very well, personally I would go for slightly more power, I don't think the sccr is needed but it does help make a better overall package.
Lets not forget Ollys car took a beating over countless trackdays, maybe the odd fault but none that I remember hearing about, certainly nothing engine or gearbox related, it was mapped right once and never needed anymore attention.
There is a simple answer to your question if you were pi55ed off enough to break the last one
Stick to laymans terms please FFS lol lol
Pistol Pete
14-12-10, 08:55 PM
Lets not forget Ollys car took a beating over countless trackdays, maybe the odd fault but none that I remember hearing about, certainly nothing engine or gearbox related, it was mapped right once and never needed anymore attention.
This for me is why a track day orientated car is more suited to a well setup XE motor.
But thats IMO!!
paul, just stick with the xe.
lets face it, at oulton park you couldn't get decent grip and fully enjoy the whole day (what we did have of it).
the other thing that make's me think you'd be better off with the xe is simply this, you cant controll the weather. Lets face it, if you are running too much power and the weather conditions are against you. you feel that you have wasted a good days track session. and lets face it, you only use the car for track.
other then whats all reay been said, a throttle boddied nova will be better for overall tracks, short twisty ones or ones with long straights.
we all know you'll build it properly too, just look at dan's car and his set up. more then enough to keep you happy.
discoinferno
17-12-10, 07:03 PM
decent xe all the way fella :)
blue_peg_16v
18-12-10, 01:18 PM
go for the let in a prity mild state of tune would be my route, especialy since you already have the lump, then the money for the xe and throttle bodies can be spent in othere areas like suspension and the gearbox too, even a standard let just seems so much quicker than an xe, my old one with 48s was rolling roaded at 196bhp but the let in exactly the same chassis, running standard boost just feels so much quicker due to the extra torque
go for the let in a prity mild state of tune would be my route, especialy since you already have the lump, then the money for the xe and throttle bodies can be spent in othere areas like suspension and the gearbox too, even a standard let just seems so much quicker than an xe, my old one with 48s was rolling roaded at 196bhp but the let in exactly the same chassis, running standard boost just feels so much quicker due to the extra torque
Are you talking about on the road or round a circuit though ?
blue_peg_16v
18-12-10, 01:36 PM
not had the let on track as yet to compaire it to the xe but on the road it feels alot quicker, need to buy some new track wheels sine the old ones got nicked and get out on track again so i can compaire
phase chips are crap with boost control and bringing it in gradually, on a track day a 220bhp xe would beat a 220bhp LET imo hands down.
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