redtop over 1600????

[you'vebeenNOVAtaken]

hey everyone im currently running a 1600 gsi engine in my nova on twin40s with some other mods aswell!! its kicking a healthy 138bhp and 120lbs/ft when it was rr but have been toying with the idea of a redtop for ages!?? i had mixed feedback from as to wheather a properly set up redtop will still handle well or is just too front heavy??

SO the big question is do i tune the 1600 further ie forged rods,pistons, lb flywheel etc (whats the maximum power to be gained out of tuning a 1600??) or drop a redtop in it???????? HELP PLEASE

[dougie_boi]

1600 turbo would be better

[General Baxter]

it all depends on what you want to spend

[loggyboy]

Do you have a tin opener....

http://www.collectiveroots.org/files/u3/can_of_worms.jpg

Do you have a big wallet? If not then go for the redtop. IMO a well set up redtop can handle just as well as a well set up 1600, the bonus being to get to 150bhp you have to spend nothing on a redtop, but you would need to spend quite a few £k to get a 1.6 there. You would then also have the fact that teh 1600 might not idle well, might be weaker, if it goes wrong will cost more to repair.

[Spudly]

or drop a redtop in it?



http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/4004924/2/istockphoto_4004924-semi-skimmed-milk.jpg










Hmmm, cant personally see the advantage of swapping your engine for a bottle of milk, but if you think it would be faster then go for it, i personally would fit a C20XE, as for one its an engine and not a bottle of milk (which would either drop out the bottom and smash, or roll about in the scuttle panel depending on where you put it) and two its a bigger cc than a 1600 and also has a better bhp figure to start off with (which btw 138bhp is a damned impressive figure for a 1600, what spec is it)

[you'vebeenNOVAtaken]

dougie-i looked into the turbo conversion but i love my carbs!!!!! plus i believe a turbo takes it to around 170?? i think. and would that keep up with redtops?

loggyboy-this is what i have been thinking the money i would need to spent on a 1600 to get it level with a redtop would be massive!! maybe buy a redtop then a tune that is it hard to get redtops to the 200 mark?

[you'vebeenNOVAtaken]

spudly- its been ported and polished, kent fast road cam, and twin dellortos so not a massive spec it was built by bill blydenstein!!

[dougie_boi]

ive put a c20xe in mine and fitted proper coilovers and to be honest it handles like any lowered small block your best would be a good decent condition c20xe (redtop) chuck that in with decent coilovers and im sure you will be over the moon with it

[mowgli]

if you want to keep on with the 1600 engine..... i have heard that the z18xe crank & rods might be some use.... 200extra cc & a hike in compression would be a lot of use.

[Graeme]

1.6 all day seeing as you already live with carbs

[Dan]

You would then also have the fact that teh 1600 might not idle well, might be weaker, if it goes wrong will cost more to repair.

The 1600 idles fine, even with a 290 duration cam as i ran on mine, if set correctly it idled sweet, weaker is only based on how the engine was built and what effort was put into it. My old one which most of us know about is still beating strong and thats never been pulled apart since it was built in 2000. repair costs are a fair shout but again depends on the build spec.

As regards the comparison, the 1600 8v built with a good torque/bhp divide will always be more fun to drive than a standard valver,which is helped by the gearing and cheap gearing upgrade options. This was the opinion of everyone that had driven/been in my old one, and many of them owned/had owned valvers. For more power and speed the valver is blatently the only way as the 1600 slowly runs out of puff power wise after 150.

The key to my engine success was we had a good 132lbft of torque offset with 142bhp, and a rev limit of 7000rpm, so it had all the grunt in the world from 1000rpm all the way through to the limiter, but with the limiter set sensibly to suit, you didnt have to rev the nuts out of it to limit its lifespan (something majorly over looked when people go chasing pub figures).

Another thing to look at is beyond the engine, if the power is enough for someone to have plenty of fun then the chassis is a must to be sorted. again this point was proven with my old one, not the most powerful car on a trackday when put on paper, but on the track it held its own quite comprehensively.

Loggy hit the nail on the head with the can of worms lol lol lol Its a personal preference thing, I have been there and done the route on both sides now, and in my honest opinion both ways are as much fun as each other, as long as you know what you want and do it properly from the chassis onwards

[Southie]

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/never_ending_story.jpg

[dougie_boi]

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/never_ending_story.jpg****ing lmao

[Stuart]

The 1600 idles fine, even with a 290 duration cam as i ran on mine, if set correctly it idled sweet, weaker is only based on how the engine was built and what effort was put into it. My old one which most of us know about is still beating strong and thats never been pulled apart since it was built in 2000. repair costs are a fair shout but again depends on the build spec.

As regards the comparison, the 1600 8v built with a good torque/bhp divide will always be more fun to drive than a standard valver,which is helped by the gearing and cheap gearing upgrade options. This was the opinion of everyone that had driven/been in my old one, and many of them owned/had owned valvers. For more power and speed the valver is blatently the only way as the 1600 slowly runs out of puff power wise after 150.

The key to my engine success was we had a good 132lbft of torque offset with 142bhp, and a rev limit of 7000rpm, so it had all the grunt in the world from 1000rpm all the way through to the limiter, but with the limiter set sensibly to suit, you didnt have to rev the nuts out of it to limit its lifespan (something majorly over looked when people go chasing pub figures).

Another thing to look at is beyond the engine, if the power is enough for someone to have plenty of fun then the chassis is a must to be sorted. again this point was proven with my old one, not the most powerful car on a trackday when put on paper, but on the track it held its own quite comprehensively.

Loggy hit the nail on the head with the can of worms lol lol lol Its a personal preference thing, I have been there and done the route on both sides now, and in my honest opinion both ways are as much fun as each other, as long as you know what you want and do it properly from the chassis onwards


^^^^THAT!!! :thumb:

Both fun, both crap, both great etc etc.

I can safely say Dan has done it right both ways and its a giggle in both formats.

[loggyboy]

Dan, - For shits and giggles - give us a ball park figure to get your 1.6 to that spec?

[AlanH]

if its balls out bhp you're after then an xe for sure, as to get your 1600 any further will cost a small fortune, if the xe gets a bit boring tuning is not expensive.

[bainyboy sr]

c20xe engine FTW

[Dan]

tbh loggy in this climate i wouldnt have a clue, i finished mine ten years ago, and that was an evolution from standard, from '96 until '00, as i evaluated all the bits i added to get the right combination to acheive my goal. Cost has never been an issue in my eyes, i did what i wanted, sometimes to go against the grain and others just to prove a point. End of the day its all swings and roundabouts

This isnt an option for many and there are cheaper routes, only a fool would argue that, but if you've got most of the good bits then a fresh bottom end on the 1600 like in 'takens' case would give that engine a completely fresh start with zero miles on the clock, compared to a battered xe (lets be honest most are lol) with 100k + on it. (or if you read every advert on ebay they've only done 80k, honest guv lol )

[Jonlem]

ive put a c20xe in mine and fitted proper coilovers and to be honest it handles like any lowered small block your best would be a good decent condition c20xe (redtop) chuck that in with decent coilovers and im sure you will be over the moon with it

Compare like to like and I bet you would take that back.

A big block handles nothing like a small block car, even I, the believer that a 20xe was the only way to go will admit that.

The argument is the costs involved in getting good power from a small block and the fact that most would prefer to gain some straight line pace and lose a bit of handling over having to tune the 16xe to make the most of the saved weight over the front wheels.

[bainyboy sr]

oh god its started again lol

[ste porter]

9 pages!

[Southie]

9 pages!
If this has your input Ste I'm going for 199 pages lol

[philip]

unless builiding an all out track car then go for the 20xe, you can get way more power/grunt compared to a 1600 8v. and tbh the stock bottom end on a 8v would handle 8.5k aslong as balanced and arp rod bolts, so just cam upgrade, springs, valves, porting etc. iirc without mega mods to the spring bases on the head you could run up to about 12mm lift 300duration.

if it was me id look at building a decent spec 20xe, for maybe 30-40kg tops differance you could save weight elsewhere or have a play with the suspension etc

[ste porter]

If this has your input Ste I'm going for 199 pages lol

lol not getting involved until lets are mentioned lol

[Southie]

Op have you ever thought about maybe fittng an LET I've heard there cr@p though? There you go Ste lol

[Jonlem]

Just fit a 1 litre 3 cylinder from the Corsa, job done.

[Rich]

I would go with the 20xe, then when you get bored of the power (wont take long!) a nice manifold and system, mild cams and a set of 45s would see you grinning again!

20xe would also probably be better on fuel lol

[ste porter]

Op have you ever thought about maybe fittng an LET I've heard there cr@p though? There you go Ste lol

twisted fire starter springs to mind pmsl lol lol

[bainyboy sr]

you laugh but its true lol

[dougie_boi]

Compare like to like and I bet you would take that back.

A big block handles nothing like a small block car, even I, the believer that a 20xe was the only way to go will admit that.

The argument is the costs involved in getting good power from a small block and the fact that most would prefer to gain some straight line pace and lose a bit of handling over having to tune the 16xe to make the most of the saved weight over the front wheels.when i got mine it was a 1.4sr and was on standard struts and just the lowering springs then when i took it out its first run with the xe and new coilovers to me it honestly handled alot better than what it did before but also its not set to a very very fine tune like if it was a proper track car so maybe when using it to that extent then there might be a bit of diffrence but for a dialy and maybe the odd fast road its ideal

[mowgli]

you laugh but its true lol

if i asked what i should use to unblock a sink, you'd chip in with 'c20xe'

some of us don't actually want one, ok......

[bainyboy sr]

if any one jumps on tha bandwagon about the handling of xe novs just ask ollie hewit he got his setup to a T

[Rich]

when i got mine it was a 1.4sr and was on standard struts and just the lowering springs then when i took it out its first run with the xe and new coilovers to me it honestly handled alot better than what it did before

Im all for big block, but thats not a fair comparison at all

[bainyboy sr]

if i asked what i should use to unblock a sink, you'd chip in with 'c20xe'

some of us don't actually want one, ok......

i would say get a plunger DICK!!!

[Rich]

you mean plunger stick?

[Spudly]

i would say get a plunger DICK!!!



You have been warned along with Rob/Sloth for this before, he is now banned so unless you want the same, please refrain, you will only get one warning for this, and this is it.

[mowgli]

i would say get a plunger DICK!!!

well every other time anyone has asked anything, you pop up & state that the c20XE is the bestest fastest engine etc.......

[bainyboy sr]

warned oncemate for spamming a forsale thread , he brought it up not me just remember i own a nova , sorry for spamming

[bainyboy sr]

well every other time anyone has asked anything, you pop up & state that the c20XE is the bestest fastest engine etc.......

no i dont sorry for owning and believing in a nova

[mowgli]

if any one jumps on tha bandwagon about the handling of xe novs just ask ollie hewit he got his setup to a T

ollie did it by spending a lot of time, effort, thought & money, he moved the wheels forward & basically moved the weight balance back to what it would have been in a small block car... also it was built for track use, so there was no worry about actually making it a comfortable and practical road car....

[dougie_boi]

Im all for big block, but thats not a fair comparison at alljust my opinion on how it worked out for me lol hopefully have a blast at knockhill to give it a proper test out

[bainyboy sr]

just my opinion on how it worked out for me lol hopefully have a blast at knockhill to give it a proper test out

yes bring it up with me in the new year mate youl have a good laugh

[mowgli]

no i dont sorry for owning and believing in a nova

i have owned & played with novas since 1986. i stopped believing the hype years ago. they are a fun little car, lets leave it at that. and i don't want a big block engine in mine. cos i think i'd end up visiting the coroner if i did....

[dougie_boi]

yes bring it up with me in the new year mate youl have a good laughone the winter is past and i get bigger brakes il give it a go but hopefully not give it to muchg death as it will be my daily as well lol

[dj_wudgey]

stay with the 1600 matey!!!

[MK999]

i have owned & played with novas since 1986. i stopped believing the hype years ago. they are a fun little car, lets leave it at that. and i don't want a big block engine in mine. cos i think i'd end up visiting the coroner if i did....

Because you'd kill yourself in it, or because someone told you to put one in once and you said "over my dead body" lol

[mowgli]

have enough near death experiences & you'll know what i mean...

i simply know i can have some fun with 1600cc, and maybe could do with a little more, but if it built an xe one, it moves the goalposts & i have too many responsibilities in my life.

[Jonlem]

if any one jumps on tha bandwagon about the handling of xe novs just ask ollie hewit he got his setup to a T


IMO it had a lot more left in it, it handled well but when did you ever see it up against a similar powered small block with the same power

I'm not talking about anyones cars that came off JNC's rollers either lol

What Olz did prove is that a xe is mentally capable, cheap engine in the grand scheme of things but being that he had £2000 + worth of gearbox in it ( if you were to buy new ) custom tie bars, suspension setup and a load of other goodies you can't really compare that to 90% of the cars on here.

I've been out in a similar setup car to Olz's running a 1.4 and he wouldn't of come close in the corners or certainly been nowhere near as planted through them, the difference would ofcourse come from the amount of power he had.

Its a argument that will NEVER end, you need deep pockets to do a good 16xe where as a £300 20xe will and has proved itself time and time again.

Its the same with the ( here we go STE ) let conversions. 95% do not use rpm vs throttle and simply have to use the big power they make to keep with NA cars with half the power their making.

My answer to all this is was to sell up and buy something built for the job, boring I know but hey its saved me a shedload in the longrun.......hopefully lol

[General Baxter]

x20xev or c18xe?

**** a 20xe with a cajillion miles on it ;p;

[dougie_boi]

My answer to all this is was to sell up and buy something built for the job, boring I know but hey its saved me a shedload in the longrun.......hopefully lolmost sensible thing said on this thread yet lol

[Hobbit]

I thought V6's were the future? :confused: lol

[General Baxter]

v6 it, its only a little more weight then a LET lol

[dougie_boi]

that definatly wont like the corners lol

[General Baxter]

supercharged 1.6 16v lol

[Jonlem]

most sensible thing said on this thread yet lol

All in theory ofcourse lol

[dougie_boi]

All in theory ofcourse lolif i had the money i would save me a lot of time, hassle, stress, grey hair, cuts, bruises, burns, bad moods and money haha

[ste porter]

as you all know im big block through and through now but dont forget i started with the small blocks aswell and i like to think its a natural progression in a way

theres fors and against in all areas and aspects of the argument always has always will my advise is try it if its a financial option and see what you feel best with

me personaly as alot are aware im very much let oriantaited now and for me its purely for the power per pounds aspect of it but alot disagree with lets and the let vs xe argument is a completly seperate kettle of fish again.

as i say i have had both a very well setup decent spec small block and big block and for me i just went where the power was but not everyone is the same. i must admit theres nothing like a hard working high reving 8v to get the heart pounding on track but that said the power from the big block always gives a grin

so again to some up if possible exsplore both options as what works well for one may not another

[Jonlem]

v6 it, its only a little more weight then a LET lol

Nail on head, V6 is the future of nova tuning.

[Rich]

i could have bought about 3 of my astra gsi for the money i spent on the let nova which is only half done lol

[dougie_boi]

i could have bought about 3 of my astra gsi for the money i spent on the let nova which is only half done lolwas it yourself i bought shafts and mounts from mate?

[Spudly]

warned oncemate for spamming a forsale thread , he brought it up not me just remember i own a nova , sorry for spamming




Doesnt matter how many times, you have or have not been warned, abuse to other members WILL NOT be tolerated on here, like i told you in the pm when Rob got banned, so you cannot say you didnt know, i see you calling anyone a prick or dick, or indeed anything else abusive be it directly or indirectly, you will facing a holiday.

[Jonlem]

I need a holiday, I'd need to be sure its going to be somewhere warm and all inclusive before I call you anything though Spud.

Feel free to PM me lol

[Spudly]

Lmfao, im afraid the 'sinbin' is not overly warm this time of year, so behave boyo :p

[Jonlem]

Damn, I'll be on my best behaviour as always :)

[adam c]

Z18xe:thumb:

But seriously it all depends on your budget or which takes priority in your eyes,straight line speed or a little bit more speed through the corners/chuckability factor?as I'm not knocking the big blocks and I know they can be made to handle well but if a Xe and F20 add roughly 40kg to the front end of the car it's a hell of a lot of weight to try lose back off the front end of it again.

[Mieran]

even a 1.6 16v is heavy, if I had the money I would tune an 8v 1.6 lol

[loggyboy]

x20xev or c18xe?

**** a 20xe with a cajillion miles on it ;p;

You say that, but my XE came from a 143k donor, i did quite a few on top of that (20-30 k maybe) and it pulled 140+bhp (at the wheels! (170-180 at fly?)) with just the obligatory airfilter /decat exhaust that you do when fitting in a Nova anyway.
All I ever did was serivice it every few k (oil/filter) and did a headgasket when there were signs of air in the water.
I sold it a year ago and would hope to think its still going strong.

Me and Claire were discussing this at karting, Its all about the late model DISPACs, they seem to repsond well to DECATing IMO.

If I was in the market for an XE, I wouldnt let mileage put me off (providing it generally ran well and oil pressure was normal etc.)

Maybe I was lucky, but my lil XE did me proud over the 5-6 years I had it and abused it.

[bainyboy sr]

i have always found the xe's to be good that ive owned ive had about 12, only ever had an issue with one and theyve all been driving hard 1 out of 12s not bad