Knowledge on tuning 1400 16v

[SR-Rally]

My 1300 8v is about to give up the ghost. And only just managed to make it to the finish last night. Anyway I'm thinking of sticking a 1400 16v engine in for reliable power. Problem is I compete in road rallys so have certain restrictions like I have to keep standard plenom, throttle body and injection set up. So wondering what is cheapest way to get more power out of one and cost.

Is it worth lightening the crank and flywheel?
Cams? What make are good and what sort of bhp etc.
Port head maybe and gas flow?

Need to get as much power/torque as possible but as always want to spend as little as possible. Especially as a competitor in a Volvo was reversing wrong way round a sharp right hander last night and I ended up going straight in the back of the clown :( so need to replace spots etc etc.

[tom741]

http://www.mk3oc.com/forum/showthread.php?29997-X14XE-X16XE-and-C16XE-Tuning
some good info on there mate should help you out

[Stuart]

Lighter fly will give you how much power? lol

[Edd]

bolt one of these on for sure

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/corsa-tigra-performance-inlet-manifold-x14xe-x16xe-/260686850095?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3cb225a82f

still keeps the standard throttle body

[mowgli]

Lighter fly will give you how much power? lol

loads........

i think people should also lighten their gears & wheels too because going on the theory about flywheels, then the rest will be worth huge power gains........

[SR-Rally]

Lighter fly will give you how much power? lol

it's not all about the total bhp, I use my engine to race and win rallys not just to talk about how much power I've got. I need it to be the best possible within my budget, and if lightened flywheel will help it rev then I will get it done. I lightened the bottom end on my 8v with great results but I'm unsure of the bennifits on a 16v.

Thanks edd but I'm not aloud to use them apparently :(

[Stuart]

in direct response to yoru initial question of "how do I get more power" and then propsing lightened flywheel.. ;)

I appreciate the benefits of lighter rotating stuff.

What ARE you permitted to change? that might help us

[mk1nova_rich]

106. Vehicle engines must have:
(a) A maximum of four cylinders.
(b) Two carburettor chokes (two single or one
double).
(c) One camshaft per bank of cylinders.
(d) Engines with more than one camshaft per bank of
cylinders may be used providing that they were
originally fitted with fuel injection and that the fuel
injection system complete with plenum chamber and
throttle body is retained unmodified.
(e) Forced induction is not permitted.

107. Fuel injection may be fitted where it was standard
equipment by the manufacturer for that engine type
and where the original plenum chamber and throttle
body is retained for that engine type. A standard
****el unit will be considered as three cylinders – twin
****el units are prohibited.

[SR-Rally]

Il get off my high horse now :)

I can change all the internals, cams pistons, valves etc and I can do head work, the only restriction are with the inlet, it says something like you must retain standard injection system including throttle body, plenom chamber. Il put the exact wording on this afternoon when I get a chance :)

[SR-Rally]

Thanks rich :thumb: saves me digging the bluebook out later :)

[Stuart]

Hmm not sure what the power limit of the std 1.4 intake is...

Wonder if you can swap to the 1.6 unit without it being 'obvious'

[mk1nova_rich]

You would probably get away with using a 1.6 inlet as scrutineers will look for OE parts, unless you are really unlucky and get a scrutineer who is anal about Vauxhalls

[Southie]

Personally I think you'd be wasting your money by fitting a 1.4 16v, all the power is suffocated with the shiit inlets, stick with the 8v imo.

[AlexW]

1.4 and 1.6 inlets are the exact same, X14XE/X16XE heads are also the same.

You could find a XEL head and port match the inlet.

IIRC 1.4 power is like 86bhp, and i dont think you would get good gains tbf, but then again im not up with the 8v's so cant say which is better imo.

Exhaust, mild cams, bit of head work, maybe a bit of play with the inlet (port match the join, enlarge the throttle body, knife edge the butterfly etc)

Reason i say most of that is, you cant see it unless you take the inlet off obv

[mk1nova_rich]

An 8 valve is still the way to go in road rallying Ben IMO, as there is so much more knowledge on tuning them within the regulations (the grasstrack lads are experts at screwing every last bhp out of them) although a 16v is probably cheaper now the 8 valves are getting thin on the ground and as such demanding big money

[SR-Rally]

Is the 1600 better? I guess the early gsi one would be best, I heard ports are bigger :s I'd get away with it no problem, scrutinier wouldn't have a problem even if they new it was off 1600 as they are still human lol I would need to match ports to 1600 obviously? What bennifits would cams give? I will spend upto £1000 on the engine but £500 sounds alot nicer :)

even though it's restricted southie it's still a better engine in my eyes, it's 10bhp better then the 1400 to start with and I've chucked 100's at mine and still only just over the 100 at the wheels. And it's not realiable as it needs to be hammered all night to get the power. :)

[AlexW]

Your getting over 100bhp? Nice, a 1.4 will never be that power though within your regs anyway.

Early GSi is C16XE, Its better than the X14XE/X16XE, but still be better to go for the more expensive XEL head from a 1.6 astra/vectra, port matching imo needs to be done to make it worth it.

Cams, depends on the spec. Bear in mind on std management you can only get a vernier on the inlet side as the exhaust cam pully has the cam sensor pickup on it.

[SR-Rally]

An 8 valve is still the way to go in road rallying Ben IMO, as there is so much more knowledge on tuning them within the regulations (the grasstrack lads are experts at screwing every last bhp out of them) although a 16v is probably cheaper now the 8 valves are getting thin on the ground and as such demanding big money

I'm not so sure, I love 8v but I think il get more reliable power out of 16v plus I want to stay under 1400, don't really no why lol need to do some thinking :)

[Southie]

even though it's restricted southie it's still a better engine in my eyes, it's 10bhp better then the 1400 to start with and I've chucked 100's at mine and still only just over the 100 at the wheels. And it's not realiable as it needs to be hammered all night to get the power. :)

The amount of money though your wanting to through at a 16v buy getting more power will all be still a waste though because of the inlet side of things.

I noticed a massive difference in my c16xe by having the Mantzel powerbox fitted, as for the clutch and flywheel fit a gte 8v one as they are far more responsive that the pot ones on the 16v, also a hell of a lot lighter.

My old 1.4 sr was far better tbh, it ran bike carbs, sport cam, and full engine rebuild, ported polished, rebored to 1440, oversized pistons so I spent also a small fortune on those dam 8v, it was less bhp but was far far a better setup than I have now.

[AlexW]

Southie, the 1.4's already have flat flys, its only 1.6's that have pot fly's.

[mk1nova_rich]

as said the inlets are the main restrictions on the 16v, whereas on a 8 valve you can use the 1300 head ported out to match a Mk1 Astra inlet then stick a twin choke on with the jets fiddled around with. Tried and tested power that works BUT is becoming very expensive due to the increasing rarity of parts. And 100bhp at the wheels from a 1400 8 valve isnt bad at all :thumb:

[SR-Rally]

Your getting over 100bhp? Nice, a 1.4 will never be that power though within your regs anyway.

Early GSi is C16XE, Its better than the X14XE/X16XE, but still be better to go for the more expensive XEL head from a 1.6 astra/vectra, port matching imo needs to be done to make it worth it.

Cams, depends on the spec. Bear in mind on std management you can only get a vernier on the inlet side as the exhaust cam pully has the cam sensor pickup on it.

It was, engine has had a hard years rallying and is no more, it's a 1300 with 12st pistons, lightened & balanced, grp a head, massive cam, webber 32/34 and set up on one the best rolling roads. But I had no end of problems with so I don't mind losing abit of power. How much weight defference is there in 8v and 16v?

What sort of power would I get with cams, xel head matched and abit of fiddling with throttle body etc. And a exhaust manifold that actually work ( guy use to make f1 exhaust so his are top quality)

[Southie]

Southie, the 1.4's already have flat flys, its only 1.6's that have pot fly's.
Never realised that, are they as light as the 8v ones?

[AlexW]

Same weight as 8v ones bud.

Powerwise i have no idea, Could get 100bhp though thinking about it. I dont know the gains of them bits as as far as i know, nobody has ever done it using the std inlet.

Weight wise, there wont be much in it as the 16v block is alloy.

[SR-Rally]

Hmmm alot of food for thought. My biggest problem is to get the power out of my 8v it needs to be over 4 and a bit grand and the engine always comes back with problems as it's flat out none stop for a hole night. Basically what I want is something that is realiable and will pull me along enough. I don't need mega power as my engine was dieing for the last half sat night and I still got 2nd in class even with a crash lol I just need reliability more then anything. When I'm in masters il worry about getting 150bhp lol or is there another engine like Suzuki?

[mk1nova_rich]

yes try the Suzuki 1300 16v. Greg1.4 on here has some experience with using them so PM him for info on fitting and tuning

[Southie]

Have a look through this for some ideas on gains and upgrades >SBD LINK (http://www.sbdev.co.uk/History_files/History_InstantExpert.htm)< obviously they tune there engines without the standard inlets though.

[AlexW]

Greg had a a suzuki 1.3 engine, but dont know anything about it.

The more ive been thinking about it, id go for the 16v, fully rebuild it though, and then i think it would be reliable. It might push you over your £500 but if you replace all the sensors, maybe have a new loom made up (if you keep standard management anyway), i dont see why it wouldnt be reliable.

But then i love baby xe's

Edit, too slow lol

[SR-Rally]

Does anyone no how much bhp them Suzuki engine are? I was looking at some other Japanese engine but they are to wide really. I'm not to set on a budget, if I spent £1000 and it lasted a year I would be a happy boy. I might find someone with 1400 corsa sport and have a go in it, then I no the slowest it could be if that makes sense. It will be Mated with f13 cr 4.5 cwp and hopefully straight cut gears so will stil be better then standard

Thanks for all the help guys. Rep will be coming your way

[AlexW]

Just bear in mind a 1.4 corsa will be a lot slower just due to the weight. My old nova 1.4 16v (std engine) was deffo quicker than my 1.4 sport.

[mk1nova_rich]

Greg mated his Suzuki engine to a F13 so no problems with the gearbox there Ben, not sure exactly how it was done but drop him a PM, I'm sure he will be willing to throw a bit of info your way :)

Edit: pretty sure the Suzuki lump is alloy blocked so a bit lighter than a Vauxhall 16v

[Southie]

Here's when Greg was selling his Suzuki setup, which he kept btw but gives you some of the spec he's running >LINK (http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154710)<.

[mk1nova_rich]

Twin carbs are out of question though Southie, so apart from the internals mods its a question of how much can be gained from the standard injection setup

[Southie]

Twin carbs are out of question though Southie, so apart from the internals mods its a question of how much can be gained from the standard injection setup
That's the thing though, Gregs was on twin 40's and pulling 120ish BHP so would probably only a 100bhp max without the carbs.

[mk1nova_rich]

but if its a light revvy setup then its well worth looking into, but it seems pricey when compared to a Vauxhall engine

[AlexW]

Vauxhall engine seems easier too.

[SR-Rally]

Been on the phone to local engine builder this afternoon, he's looking into what he reckons I should do :) il keep you all posted

[SR-Rally]

Oh and I've just bought low milage 1400 16v for £100 bargain :) gearbox loom and ecu to :)

[Southie]

Oh and I've just bought low milage 1400 16v for £100 bargain :) gearbox loom and ecu to :)
Did you get the key and chip transponder? It's needed for getting it running or the ecu won't work.

[SR-Rally]

Just spoke to him now and I'm buying the whole car, it was being built into road rally car but never used. It's got epas with hockley controller, brand new quaife quick rack, avo coilovers, buckets, hydrolic bar etc etc all for the same price I saw engine and box on eBay :) been a good day

[mk1nova_rich]

Ben, PM me a list of any parts on this rally car I may be interested in and approx prices for them. Details of seats too please :thumb:

[AlexW]

Nice!

[garyc]

I'd try a 14SE and put twin SU's on there.

As an aside the most HP I've heard of from a 1400 8V is 194 on a all out race class 5 autograss car.

[SR-Rally]

Well been and picked up corsa :( engine is good but parts he said it had it actually didn't, managed to get the whole car for scrap value and I've got another quick rack :) makes it 4 now.

There's isn't much on car rich, ate brakes, stud conversion, few lil things people with corsa would like but not much.

[AlexW]

If theres any bits you think i might be interested in :p Got a whole fleet of the fecking corsas lol

[AlexW]

Also see your after a SRi ecu, its not for this is it?

[SR-Rally]

No it's for nova, for friend of mines rally car. This is 16v engine. Ermm it has rose jointed front anti roll bars and polly bushed. Ermmm mint doors and boot, gearbox, big brakes. Il have propper look round it one night this week.

[SR-Rally]

had a long chat with martin bowyer yesterday and steve at sbd. sounds like the best plan of attact is to rebuild the engine completely standard with some 1600 cams and arp's, custom exhaust and then run it on mbe management. once i've done that and got it set up propperly i can look at maybe bigger cams or piston's etc but by the sound of it i won't bother as should have a nice strong reliable engine that is easy to drive without spending more money. plus to get any benifit from cams i would need alot of headwork to be done.

[mk1nova_rich]

had a long chat with martin bowyer yesterday and steve at sbd. sounds like the best plan of attact is to rebuild the engine completely standard with some 1600 cams and arp's, custom exhaust and then run it on mbe management. once i've done that and got it set up propperly i can look at maybe bigger cams or piston's etc but by the sound of it i won't bother as should have a nice strong reliable engine that is easy to drive without spending more money. plus to get any benifit from cams i would need alot of headwork to be done.

That sounds like a good plan, and you are definitely in safe hands with Martin Bowyer :)

[SR-Rally]

Yeah that was my thinking, just need find mbe ecu for ignition and injection now I have an mbe for ignition only but no good lol

[mk1nova_rich]

Clear your inbox pal, I've text you instead :thumb:

[AlexW]

Std 1600 cams? There is 0.5mm difference between 1.4 and 1.6.

[SR-Rally]

Yeah he did say it was fak all difference :s I might just stick piper 270 in :s

[mk1nova_rich]

Yeah he did say it was fak all difference :s I might just stick piper 270 in :s

it probably depends on your budget, he will advise you to leave cams out until the other work is done, ie. so youre getting the most for your money. If you can afford cams too at the same time as the build then I'd imagine he will suggest some cams for you :thumb:

Have a look at Julian Wilkes 1400 Nova (spec may have been changed by now) but that was running a 1400 16v with very mild cams (not a Bowyer engine but JRE) and is a brilliant and successful engine/car combination

[Novadone]

I run a 1400 16V engine in a Corsa on Tarmac events, previosly in a Nova.

The engine was originally built by myself but has just had a full rebuild by Protec.

Engine wise, most of the kit comes from Steve at SBD, Jenvy throttle bodies,
MBE, Peco Inj, Omega Pistons, Arrow rods, the head has been worked and runs, with a decked block, a CR of 12.2:1, with SBD ground cams via Kent cams, solid lifters etc.
Result of all this is 169 BHP, but it has cost a small fortune :roll:

The bottom end on the engine is quite a strong unit, just get some ARP's fitted, it really depends on your budget, But for the Cams I would be looking at Cat Cams, I know Protec rate them, then I would consider a good set of 45's with a matched manifold, with MBE, do some work on the inlets on the head and you should get some decent results.

[SR-Rally]

My friend had a 1400 that was just over 200 bhp at the crank so I no they are very capable engine :) it cost him around 10,000 in parts and he built it himself lol Problem Is I have regulations that I have to stick to which means I can't change inlet or injection system :( which means it's pointless spending thousands as at the end of the day it's still sucking air through a straw.

Althouh I'm building up to do stage rallying eventually which means I will get to enjoy spending thousands on my engine :(