View Full Version : 1.2 crank in a 1.6
2 answers needed
1 will it lower the compresion enough for turbocharging?
2 will the 1.6 con rods fit it?
( still learning )
someone actually did this by accident & made a 1400 with about 7:1 cr.... he stuck a 1.2 spi one in.
it ran crap as a n/a engine, but it would be interesting to say the least with a turbo on it, and aftermarket management.. it would also rev like hell
Right good then, but I'll use another 1.6 so not to kill it's own engine lol
say it all went horribly wrong and apsloded, what would be the risk to the turbo?
if it blows up lovly engine bits will go through the turbo yummy
LMAO. Ive just been working this out over the last few days for my conversion.
1.6 conrods will fit, although ideally, use the 1.2 conrods too on the 1.6 pistons. My comp will be about 8.5, which is plenty low enough to run boost. Dont know what your 8v will be like though.
Hmmm thought that :(
it would fail on an epic scale lol
bazil now needs a 1.2 spi crank plz k thx
this is getting interesting...........
BTW i was looking at 1.2 carb stuff, stroke is 63 or similar on them, compared to the 1.2 spi's 73 or so. My 1.6 stroke is like 82.
this is getting interesting...........
oh c'mon it's took me a year to strip a nova, still done nout with it lol
probably just do it for an experiment, 1.6 block and pistons, 1.2 crank and pos rods, e16 head but if the compresion needs to go lower I could use a 1.6 cavy head,
got the turbo fanimould and a turdo
comptoncj
02-11-10, 10:32 PM
When i spoke to my engine builder before i bought CGs engine, we were toying with the idea of using a piston out of a toyota which is the same size as a 1600 8v piston but using this piston alone would lower the CR down to about 8:1. It sounded like a good idea but i didnt look to far into it.
BTW i was looking at 1.2 carb stuff, stroke is 63 or similar on them, compared to the 1.2 spi's 73 or so. My 1.6 stroke is like 82.
to be honest cheif I don't really have a clue, well not on specifics, I just bolt it together and hope it works.
Panels Paint and welding is fine, general engine stuff is fine but still learning how to work out things like this, hence the idea of trying it
Cle, what's the story with your crank?
we ll i is reboring 1.2 block so getting a different crank so if you want it tis yours, still have clocks to show milage of it aswell lol
The 1.2 conrods and crank, if it works which im 95% certain it will, will make a really revvy engine but cope with boost.
markd89s engine. 1420cc and spot on for boost. id look for a garrett t3 and run the early e16se managemnt as it can be adjusted for boost.
main problem with 12st conrods is the different size gudgeon pin compared to the later 1.2i
markd89s engine. 1420cc and spot on for boost. id look for a garrett t3 and run the early e16se managemnt as it can be adjusted for boost.
more info on this please......
The only way a e16se management can be 'adjusted' for turbo use is if you fit one of the pressure switches to the tps
Is the not some low comp pistons in your book mowgli ? Like you found my 1300 ones
there are some 8.5cr 1600 pistons but they are for opel brazil for use with ethanol fuel and i did once try to find some but i don't think they are european stock
look at dirtydog1's corsa build, he adjusted the dizzy and fitted a rising rate fpr and it ran fine.
massively over fueling on tick over tho, and off boost, the way he did it is more of a bodge than the pressure switch, and thats pikey lol
thus mapping....
i did findout that the l3.1 jetronic was also fitted to things like 944turbo & uno turbo.... i wonder if even an rsturbo ecu would work.............now there is a can of worms
think craig looked into a RS turbo loom ecu set up when he had his courtenay e16se turbo, from what i remember all but one of the sensors/plugs were the same, cant remember which one was different, so its possible i would say
just ordered an rs turbo wiring diag and manual off ebay. lets see what works out
just ordered an rs turbo wiring diag and manual off ebay. lets see what works out
report back when you get it Rob, be interesting to see if it is possible
I didn't know about teh ford stuff being so similar, but are we talking the EFI or mechanical injection?
The brothers 1.6 RST was awesome iirc it had a t3 hybrid Mahle forged pistons, lightened and balanced bottom end and ran achmed bajoo management, it was a non efi engine
it would be so much easier to use ford stuff as it's easier to get IMO
C612DNM
03-11-10, 10:57 PM
there are some 8.5cr 1600 pistons but they are for opel brazil for use with ethanol fuel and i did once try to find some but i don't think they are european stock
If you run alcohol fuels, you need a higher compression ratio, not a lower one. Because the air/fuel ratio is soooo much "thicker", the charge is lots cooler, and can be compressed more before it needs to go bang.
The usual crack with alcohol fuels is up one point on the ratio - ie: 10:1 on gasoline, then 11:1 on alcohol, and be prepared to run up to 40% more fuel.
You can get lots more power out of an alcohol burning turbocharged engine because it will tolerate a lot more boost before detonation occurs. The trade off is having extra-terrible fuel consumption.
I'm getting mixed up(it's me age!) so this 1.2 is the Tpi engine with a 73mm stroke, like the old 1300 stroke, not the 1.2 carb engine with a 63mm stroke and a 77.8mm bore - am I right?
So using the 73mm crank in place of the standard 81.5mm crank from the 1600 (79mm bore) gives you a 1431cc lump that you should be able to turn over with your fingers as the piston will be stopping some 8.5mm further down the block than normal.
I think you'll find that will be a little lower on the compression ratio that you hoped.
I'll solve that with more boost lol or high comp forged pistons in a destroked engine, I ain't clever but I ain't daft!
Standard pistons can't take high boost for long, I've seen melted pistons before and while funny it ain't a good result.
C612DNM, the stuff they produce in brazil is pretty much like the old 2* fuel we used to have over here before unleaded, it is crap low octane stuff used in non performance models, as opposed to 'alcohol' fueled racing cars & dragsters. they make low compression engines to suit it.
yeah, its made from sugar beet. if the pistons 8.5 cm down the bore surely it will be soooo short stroke it will be unreal?and the thing is, marks ran, it was just massively down on power. which a nice t3 would cure....
bazil, you doing this for a laugh before building the engine for your gsi or building this up properly to be used in the gsi? i'm confused here.
a bit of both mate, i will build it properly and see how it goes, its really just to get round using 2 head gaskets and a spacer,
my idea was to use a crank to destroke it enough that i could run high boost a bit more safely, if it blows up so be it, if it doesnt then its a benchmark for others to follow
the gsi will go back on the road with its own 1.6 n/a whilst building a second 1.6 turbo for experimenting with, if it works it will go into the gsi for sure.
For what its worth messing around with FRST EFI looms, surely it would be just aswell buying cheap managment such as M-TECH V4 or something along those lines.
ive not really thought that far ahead tbh, id probably be best to go with what i can get up here, no point buying M-tech and nobody within 100 miles can map it, rolling roads and the like are pretty thin up here.
Yeh thats a good point. It would be nice to use an OEM management, although not ideal. But if your like me, i like everything to be perfect, and in my eye its gotta be OEM.
If you ever want me to look at an FRST loom, just ask, as ive got one. But i dont know for how long. Its up for sale, but i havnt made my mind up if ill store it or not, as its a pretty special car.
the biggest advantage imo of using ford stuff is the fact its designed for a turbo engine, any vauxhall stuff would need to be played with to work,
the thing about it is the fact nobody really wants a 1.6 8 valve turbo engine, i mean its easier to fit a let and not have this hassle,
i like a little difference, i dont like run of the mill, just my nature.
whats the spec on you FRST? thing id really like is the injector part number, usually its in small numbers on the side of the injector,
Nothing wrong with running the spacer and 2 gaskets IMO, Craigs was fine for years with that set up
iirc its recomended not to go past 11 psi, well so ive read in threads on here, its just something to go wrong imo, if i could get steel rods and low comp pistons at a fair price then thats the best route for me but also an expensive one. christ ive seen rods and piston sets for lets for under 900!! id be looking at almost the same price just for a set or arrow rods :(
All depends what power you want I suppose, craigs was 175bhp and was very quick tbh
I've set myself the target of a minimum of 200, this is why the standard engine will go back in once the shell is rebuilt, I've seen far to many projects not get finished or broke and sold, my bodywork is an epic task and so is the engine build, both arn't cheap and I don't want to compromise my plan, I could easily do the turbo conversion to my 1.6 engine but I know I'd not have what I want, hence this thread, feedback info and opinion,
still got a while before I actually need an engine tho lol
Spec of my FRST is:
ZVH 1800cc block and internals
CVH head
Standard cam
OFAB Ecu
Biege injectors
T3
Forge intercooler
3'' SS manifold back
Polybushed
Avo coilovers
Greenstuff front pads
Stage 1 organic clutch
Evo chip (i think)
Decompression plate
Edit: Theres loads more, just cant think.
Theres a massive list, totals over 4k, and thats without the bodywork. Its had 2 genuine rear quarters, doors, wings. It was bareshelled, not repaired. The quality of the work is amazing really.
ANYWAY! It made 165bhp (2nd run) on 10psi, but needs an uprated actuator. Something that wont be done in my possesion, the only thing ill be doing now is storing it, if it doesnt sell.
Edit: Heres the ad, have a look, again i havnt listed everything.
http://pistonheads.com/sales/2202418.htm
Nothing wrong with running the spacer and 2 gaskets IMO, Craigs was fine for years with that set up
Only problem is with the spacer is timing eventually is out. Not a problem on old 8 valve engines, just a case of re timing
C612DNM
05-11-10, 10:17 PM
C612DNM, the stuff they produce in brazil is pretty much like the old 2* fuel we used to have over here before unleaded, it is crap low octane stuff used in non performance models, as opposed to 'alcohol' fueled racing cars & dragsters. they make low compression engines to suit it.
From memory, the stuff the produce in Brazil is offered in a number of "flavours", which are all blends of petrol with ethanol. Cars that won't run on pure ethanol can run on the blend. The higher the amount of petrol in the blend the lower compression ratio that it'll tolerate, but the easier it'll start!
Petrobras are the main players over there, their fuel conforms to minimum regulation E25 for the basic stuff, then they offer E85, and pure E100.
All of those blends will run BETTER with a raised compression ratio, as with race fuels, the increased amount of ethanol improves the resistance to detonation, and thus allows the increase in CR.
Or if it's a turbo - more boost! (see Saab 93 Flex-Fuel)
For dirt race engines on Alcohol, they run typically 14:1 CR, and considerably larger jets (typically 2.2 times the size of petrol/gasoline).
Bazil, Corsa VXR pistons could be a option
I know Count was/is going to fit some to his 16xe engine
Worth considering IMO
Yep, VXR bottom end stuff fits into the 16v's so obv will fit the 8v's too. Forgot about them until now.
I did recently see a funked VXR lump sell for just £500 too. (Crash damaged, buggerd head etc, turbo and bottom end internals were ok).
If you went for 16v, the VXR turbo and manifold bolts right up to the head.
Don't go 16xe, you have the manifold for the 8v now so....
Will be more original as well
The 16v option is one for scorge as he wants a baby xe turbo,
I'm staying 8v, honestly just to keep it old school but with good power, and hopefully matching and original numbers on v5 and engine, not many gsi nova turbos have that now.
lol edd I think you and I have the same train of thought.
Done a little window shopping and found low comp forged pistons and rods for under a grand for Z16leh/L/R in 79mm 79.5mm and 86mm, so plenty of good news there.
My only question is will the rods fit my E16SE crank? And would the stroke be ok with the E16 crank?
You need to find the stroke out of both engines. Even then you need to work out the comp ratio.
pffft 10:1 CR is fine for turbos :) Just needs PROPER management for fuel/spark control rather than bodging with a rising rate FPR and knocking the dizzy back.
Having the pistons 8.5mm down the bore at TDC is going to make for a DIRE burn as the squish etc will be compromised bigtime, so you will either need a stack of boost to make acceptable power or always use nitrous too lol.
Ethanol is great in concept, but it lacks calorific energy hence the need for 20-40% more of the stuff than regualr gasoline :(
I can see what your saying Stuart but in order to get my 200 bhp or more I will require boost at a higher level that I could comfortably run with high compresion and 2 gaskets with spacer plate sandwich,
here is the spec on a set of cosworth pistons and pec rods for the z16 leh/r
I'll need to look up my crank spec to compare or would the x16xe crank fit my block???
Part No. 1708H0059
Engine type Z16LER / Z16LEH
OE Bore size 79mm
Bore sizes available 79mm / 79.5mm
Engine CC 1597.94cc / 1618.23cc
Stroke 81.5
Cosworth Comp. ratio 8.5:1
OE Comp. ratio 8.8:1
Comp. height 27.5
Valve per Cylinder 4
Cylinders 4
Reccomended Piston to Bore clearance 0.08
Part No. G0060
Length C/C 129.7mm
Small end Dia 19mm
Big end Dia 46mm
ARP Bolts supplied? ARP Pro Wave 2000 5/16" Thread
the 1600s be they 8v or 16v are all the same stroke.
higher Cr means same power for less boost.... or more power for same boost with good fuel and ecu control.
stu, the theory stands up that if you can keep an engine together with high cr & a turbo, you will obviously get more power, but most if not all manufacturers still use lower cr, and i'm assuming its for long term reliability..
am i right in thinking that if you run higher cr, then the maximum revs will come down, like in a diesel.......simply because of the extra stress on components. or you will be needing much a stronger crank & rods, so the cost goes up massively.
10:1 is hardly massive lol even for a petrol engine.
You get better off boost performance, potentially less lag for the power given a smaller turbo/less boost is needed etc.
Doubt it goes like diesel as the GM sportcompact LSJ build book shows you can build a 10Krev limited 1200bhp turbo engine with a relatively 'high' CR
10:1 might not be, but i don't think the trusty 1600 small block will take much turbo abuse.
mk1nova_rich
10-11-10, 10:10 AM
IIRC WRC engines only have a CR of between 9.5 and 10:1 which obviously have thousands of pounds and hours invested into them, and neither cost or long term reliability is an issue. Therefore for us mere Nova enthusiasts the parts and technology required that goes into making such a conversion work reliably is simply not worth the gains to be had.
iirc the 2.0 turbo golf GTI has a CR of 10:1.... its a road engine with road life expectancy. Yes I appreciate VW put millions into the engine etc, but its not hugely different from the original engine of 20-30 years ago, plus engines are only a few simple components.
The 1.6 8v is a pretty robust bit of kit.
I'm planning to try a 10:1 (or as near to stock Cr as possible) a 1.4 8v terbow lol
mk1nova_rich
10-11-10, 10:34 AM
Its usually the anti-lag that kills the engines lol which the WRC are designed to run with as they have to have a restrictor fitted to the turbo (34mm IIRC) but as you say VAG have invested millions into their engines over the years so reliable high output units can be produced. And principly, engines are just a few simple components but the materials they are made of vary. Its just not cost-effective to be fitting thousands of road engines with forged steel internals when cast alloy is more than adequate. The 2.0 16v turbo combination has been around in rallying for years now so no major technology breakthroughs are taking place, just small tweaks and refinements here and there so the engine technology for road-going car production has all but caught up
having stood next to an evo with antilag at the midlands rally, and then been told by the man who builds the engines for it that they can cope with about 500km stage miles, and the fact that it is on the cars to get round regulations, there are way better ways to run a turbo car when the only restrictions are noise & emissions for an mot.
If the 8 and 16 valve rods are the same then I'll be going down the low comp route, with T25 or T28
Doubt it goes like diesel as the GM sportcompact LSJ build book shows you can build a 10Krev limited 1200bhp turbo engine with a relatively 'high' CR
Highest stress on a high revving engine is on the exhaust stroke when the piston attempts to exit from the conrod at TDC at about 80mph, it's why the stroke on F1 cars is so tiny, to keep the piston speeds down. So it's purely a function of the piston weight, conrod strength and how fast it's going. They rarely fail in compression as there's a nice chunky lump of conrod in the way, compared to the top/bottom edges of the little/big end which are much easier to break.
Maximum revs come down on a diesel most likely because there's much less torque up top and the power required to compress air that much that quick is a lot higher.
MK999, what's your opinon on the route of low comp leh pistons and rods giving a 8:5.1 in the 8v block?
As for camshafts, I'll worry about that later lol
MK999, what's your opinon on the route of low comp leh pistons and rods giving a 8:5.1 in the 8v block?
As for camshafts, I'll worry about that later lol
What I was planning to do (but 16v block, might be the same, not sure) but I haven't yet looked into how it effects squish areas etc. So basically I don't have one lol Was hoping someone else would have done it first by the time I came round to so I knew whether it was disappointing or not :p
Nice lol
a grand for pistons and rods for an experiment lol
1.2 crank would be much cheaper,
That's the other thing I didn't look into, was the cost, anything more than 2-3k ish for a properly rebuilt (bored, honed, rings, bearings, seals, could sell it as new) engine that will be reliable, and on standalone management would make it less worthwhile imo. To most people that wouldn't be worthwhile even as you can pick up a shonky LET for <£1k and it's an easy 200-250bhp. I like playing with engines though lol
Dervs dont rev because of their long stroke, heavy as funk pistons and the fact diesel takes a sodding age to burn properly
/\ and the fact that they don't need to rev to produce the power
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