Smoking X16Xel Help Please!

[jeremy fisher]

Hi, I have recently installed a X16Xel engine into my nova. It is running R6 carbs and Megajolt. I had some problems with it smoking really bad when I first got it running and ended up changing the valve stem seals (for the second time. Rebuilt the head before fitting the engine) and also did the
piston rings. I got it running again and it seemed to run pretty good, slight bit of smoke but I was running the rings in so nothing abnormal. Then after about 150 miles it started to smoke really bad and be way down on power. It was almost as if it was running on 2 cylinders or something but I think the poor running was due to the amount of oil being burnt. It was also knocking a bit and backfireing out of the carbs but I also put this down to the amount of oil being burnt effectively reducing the octane rating of the mixture and causing ignition related knock/pre-ignition. My oil light was flickering on and off on tickover but I think this is unrelated as there's definately oil getting around the engine, jus maybe a little weak on tickover. I did a compression test and it showed between 200 and 220psi on all cylinders which is what I got after fitting the ne rings. I tried to do a 'wet' test but the tester broke on me. I wonder if it was effectively a 'wet' test anyway as there's so much oil getting in the cylinders. I checked the stem seals on the inlet side by poking a screwdriver with some tissue taped to it down the inlet manifold and there was a bit of oil down there but nothing compared to the first time I had smoky problems. There is so much oil going through the cylinders that it drips from my poorly sealed exhaust gasket where the downpipe meets the centre section.
How many ways are there for oil to get inyo the cylinders, especially in such great quantities? I don't know if there's any more investigating I can do before starting to pull the engine apart and look inside. The only thing I can really think of is if the bores are shagged but then would it have ran that well for 150 miles and would it have given such good compression? I'm stumped!
I'd be very gratefull if anyone has any ideas or similar experiences and can help me out.

Thanks

Nick

[philip]

not bore washed is it? if ran too much fuel that def wouldnt help.

[jeremy fisher]

I think it was a bit rich. I had a wideband readout but it broke before I could set the carbs up so I left it a bit rich to be on the safe side, didn't want to lean out. Could have contributed but wouldn't have caused this on its own would it?
Cheers

[Sloth]

basically its dead. new motor

[jeremy fisher]

Was hoping for something a little more constructive. If I do need a new engine, I'd at least like to know what went wrong to avoid it in the future. Also I have a hell of a lot of work invested in the head, porting, welding etc and would like to keep that if I can. No ideas as to what is actually wrong with it?

[Sloth]

ok, from what you have described id say either massive bore wash or baring failure. no one can tell you exactly till you strip it.

[jeremy fisher]

right, cheers. Any bottom ends for sale!

[Sloth]

try upullit

[jeremy fisher]

eh? is that a user off the forum?

[Sloth]

nope google it.

[AlexW]

I have a bare X16XE, needs a conrod and maybe crank after it span a shell. Had new rings not long ago though. Im in essex. PM me if you like.

[philip]

id bite the bullet and strip and rebuild it atleast then you know its right.

[jeremy fisher]

Thing is, I did the rings and big end bearings 150miles ago. Its not as if I've jus bought an engine an slapped it in. Thats what worries me. It makes no sense. How else can oil get in the cylinders?
piston rings
stem seals
head gasket
I've only just done all of them.

And if I had bad bore wash what would that do? wash the oil from the bores and leave little lubrication? is that likely to bust a near new piston ring?

I don't mind putting the work in I jus feel like I've been wasting my time!

[mowgli]

well, its either way too much petrol getting in, this can be either from massively rich fueling, or the floats aren't set right & it is getting in when the engine is off. this thins the oil, and then the oil burns off, and the oil/petrol mix isn't good enough to lubricate anything, so it gets worse.

i assume you have a decent breather setup on it, cos people have been on here before with 'it smokes like hell, do i need a breather, or can i just run it bunged up?' sort of threads...

[Plug]

Sounds like a bore wash to me

[tom reid]

You've changed the stem seals twice, my bet is the guides are worn out, they are bad for wearing on this engine, especially the exhaust ones.
Can you get the engine leak tested?, if not give me a shout and I'll do it for you, DON'T strip the engine before youv'e leak tested it.

[craig green]

My C16 smoked like a trooper at high revs, though I sold it Jay who bought it found a cam follower bucket was cracked.

Is it consuming lots of oil or just causing a smoke screen?

[jeremy fisher]

My breathers are just open to atmosphere, I just have lengths of pipe on there and I checked that they were clear. haven't got around to sorting a proper breather setup yet but they're definately not blocked.

It was running rich but not massively i don't think, like I said it drove pretty smoothly. I've had the carbs off quite a few times and never noticed any fuel in the manifold or smelt excessive amounts.

Will worn guides cause that much oil to get in even with new stem seals?
I have never done a leak test before, dunno if i might be able to make a leak tester? I guess I would have to come to you if you did it Tom? Because I don't want to drive it, at least not very far. Last time I drove it I only went about a mile and it really struggled to get me home. There's a massive amount of oil getting through, it's using a lot, and like I said, its dripping from my exhaust joint.

Thanks for the replies

[mowgli]

you might have a holed piston or similar

[jeremy fisher]

That crossed my mind but would the compression be good then? Would the oil in the cylinder be enough to block it and give good readings?

[Damo]

That crossed my mind but would the compression be good then? Would the oil in the cylinder be enough to block it and give good readings?

Imo if the piston was holed it would give zero compression so im going for bore wash or as others have said either a craked lifter or worn guides.

[jeremy fisher]

Surely bore wash would not actually cause these symptoms? or are people suggesting that bore wash has caused another problem due to poor lubrication?

[Damo]

Surely bore wash would not actually cause these symptoms? or are people suggesting that bore wash has caused another problem due to poor lubrication?

Nail head;)

[jeremy fisher]

Would a cracked lifter or worn guides cause that much oil to get in the cylinders? And if it was worn guides wouldn't they have got progressively worse? It didn't just go in an instant but it went from driving pretty nice an not really smoking noticeably to smoking quite a lot, to puffing out huge clouds and barely driving within about 30 miles.

[Damo]

As craig said a page before the one he sold to jay did this he's was the same really smoking like a trooper.

[jeremy fisher]

Right, I wasn't familiar with the term "cam follower bucket" but I take it that is just another term for the lifter. I'll try and check them, at least I can do that without taking the head off. They were all fine when I did the rings but I don't suppose that rules it out.

Thanks

[tom reid]

Have you a compressor?, need one for the leak test, I could come to you.
Take the exhaust manifold off and have a look in each port, especially on the ceiling, if it's the guides or stem seals you'll see clean tracks in the carbon.

[jeremy fisher]

I've got a mate with a compressor at his unit about 5 mins away, could get my car there and use that. Let me know when you could come, that would be great. I'll get the manifold off in the mornin an have a look.

Thanks

[jeremy fisher]

Had the exhaust manifold off. Couldn't see any clean tracks in the carbon. Did find that the ports for cylinders 1 an 2 were black but not wet and 3 and 4 were wet and black so I think the problem is in 3 and 4. The plugs from 3 and 4 were also wet an oily and 1 and 2 were dry. Also checked the inlet ports properly and they were good and clean, no signs of oil. This says to me that it isn't the guides or stem seals. I also had the rocker cover off and all the lifters looked Ok, although the cams were still in place so obviously couldn't check them properly. But if it was a lifter wouldn't the oil be entering the cylinders down the guides similar to if it was stem seals? Also noticed a thin layer of strange grey gunk stuff around the lifters for the inlet valves on cylinders 1 and 2, it was almost like lapping paste without the grit or at least extremey fine which is a little worrying but as it's 1 and 2 and not 3 and 4 I would say that it is unrelated.

[jeremy fisher]

Tom gave up his Sunday morning (most appreciated!) to come and do a leak test for me. It showed 1, 8, 6 and 13% leakage from 1 to 4. He said those are pretty good figures (especially the 1%!) I've never done one before but from what I've read they're fine. So the piston rings were ruled out. We decided it was probably the valve guides and decided they should be changed. I have no experience doing valve guides but Tom has kindly offered to help me out. Also Tom noticed a Knock on startup which I had heard previously but not worried too much about as it is only heard for a brief moment on startup. But this is apparently a sign of worn big ends or a weak oil pump. So after thinking my bottom end was Ok that also needs looking at. I spent my Sunday afternoon dropping the engine and splitting it down ready to take over to Toms for him to have a look at.
Not the news I had hoped for but at least I am getting somewhere!

Thanks to Tom for the help.

[skud52]

does that mean ur cars back in the unit?

[jeremy fisher]

Nah, outside.