View Full Version : Engine classes
Okay bit longwinded but...
At uni i am in need of a project where you analyse a certain area or part or design of a car and improve it or redisign it etc etc. Well i wanted to design something for my car (nova obv lol) like a rollcage and use the structral equipment at uni to show weakpoints and how i could of done it better etc etc. But due to lack of room in the uni workshops and the fact my nova is my daily runabout anything involving my actual nova is a no-go. So then though about building an egine, more specifically an engine for a specific class. This means my car hasnt got to be the spec for the class its gotta be in and means i can just concentrate on the thing i am improving ie the engine. Sooo.....................
Seing as some of you out there use there novas in competively ie rallying.
i wanna know:
1) What different classes can the nova compete in engine wise
2)Wheres the best place to find all the regs and info on the class and series
3)What spec engine do you have
4)What one would you recommend that i could build a competitive engine for the class in with the least money spent.
5)How much roughly we talking (not including transmission just engine)
Reason i am asking you guys is so i can see if its financially viable for me to build, it will probably not be going in my car as i will sell the engine afterwards. If push comes to shove i can simulate the engine build on some lotus engine simulation software at uni but thats just gay lol. Also if anyone has any other project ideas, let me know ;)
Any info would be great and will be rewarded with rep (if poss)
Thanks:thumb:
Well I know there are a few 1.4 16v rally nova's out there so I'm guessing there is a 1400cc class
Personally though engine's are where an aweful Lot of money is spend and I'm guessing to build an engine worthy of competition your talking 7k (that's an off the shelf kit from sbd)
How about a 1300sr engine? gotta be by far the cheapest to tune,and are,when built,front runners in the autograss scene
Yea that was what i was thinking autograss 1300's but need to speak to people that do it already if you know what i mean
garyc on here is the man to speak to bud
Ahh nice one will drop him a pm cheers
Novasport
23-09-10, 07:46 PM
RallyCraig is about half a mile from you and might be of some help, PM him.
MK1_Ben
24-09-10, 07:26 AM
The 1.3 and 1.4 would be in the up to 1400 class. The 1.6 would be in 1600 etc. XE's and LET's are out of the question really.
There's Rallyfirst, which is pretty much a standard road car, rally prepped. So no diff allowed, I believe the gear ratios can be changed, different exhaust, standard Engine etc.
Then there's L class, which allows any Exhaust system, Gearbox, Final drive (and other little things). But you're not allowed Engine modification, polycarb windows, paddle/sequential shift, hydraulic handbrakes, fibreglass parts etc.
The other class you'd look at competing in is S class, which is pretty much, any Engine modifications, but the car has to stay its original capacity. Also you can have Fibreglass panels, Polycarb windows, paddleshift/sequential, hydraulic handbrake etc. However, This class isn't advisable unless you have ALOT of money, this is the class where you get the 220bhp 1.6 MGZR's and the even more powerful C2's. There's alot of 1.4s pushing 160bhp easily (At my local rally there were a couple 1.6 Novas with over 200 horsepower).
Cost-wise, Rallyfirst you could do a bog standard build for under a grand. L class you're looking a fair amount more as you would want to invest in a straight-cut box and slip diff amongst other things. So you're easily looking a couple grand plus. I run my MGZR in S class, and I bought a Dave Andrews engine for just shy of £5000 to be running 150bhp in the 1.4 class. And that's at the low end of the price scale for people that enter it.
for a uni project I would NOT be considering "tuning a nova engine" as a good project..... I barely considered my analysis and theoretical tuning VS real world tuning of a K-Series to be a serious project and that was all done in GT-Power and ona dyno to prove either way etc.
Doing an engine simulation of a "perfect" engine and then comparing it to whats out there from the likes of GM/Ford/BMW/Merc etc would be a far better one to go for imho, and less embarassing when asked about it in later life lol
MattBrown
24-09-10, 09:41 AM
for a uni project I would NOT be considering "tuning a nova engine" as a good project..... I barely considered my analysis and theoretical tuning VS real world tuning of a K-Series to be a serious project and that was all done in GT-Power and ona dyno to prove either way etc.
Doing an engine simulation of a "perfect" engine and then comparing it to whats out there from the likes of GM/Ford/BMW/Merc etc would be a far better one to go for imho, and less embarassing when asked about it in later life lol
I actually agree with the whole comment:wtf:
However, I dont think tuning a 20 year old 8v engine is degree worthy.
Maybe look at a vtec lump, and modify the cam timing gear or something.
It needs to be something really tidy.
Or, machine your own head from a billet, theres a challengelol
Just do that on a single cylinder 4 stroke engine...... Make the 'perfect' head, and then its just scaleable etc.
Or play about with electrophumatic valve controllers to have no camshaft, but infinately varaible (and therefore 'PERFECT') cam timing etc.
Stuff like that is farm more impressive, and then you can simply apply the ideas to an existing vehicle (such as a nova lol)
you are thinking wrong here.. i assume the course is motorsport biased..
look, there are thousands of people creating high power engines all over the world. motorsport is all about regulations & how to get round them
you should be looking at transmissions, braking efficiency, steering or something different, like telemetry because there is much more need for these sorts of people.. especially as the fia is pushing the 4cyl 1600 turbo 'world engine' concept for all forms of motorsport
MattBrown
24-09-10, 10:14 AM
you are thinking wrong here.. i assume the course is motorsport biased..
look, there are thousands of people creating high power engines all over the world. motorsport is all about regulations & how to get round them
you should be looking at transmissions, braking efficiency, steering or something different, like telemetry because there is much more need for these sorts of people.. especially as the fia is pushing the 4cyl 1600 turbo 'world engine' concept for all forms of motorsport
And like everything the MSA or FIA get ivolved with, the price will treble, and the sports will go downhill:(
the costs are meant go down...... as the engine will be homologated. and policeable
the costs are meant go down...... as the engine will be homologated. and policeable
odds on no.....
well the base price will be manic at the very least. Its still going to be very very very low volume whatver it is.
Plus a lovely backhander from the FIA to said engine company lol
These are the actual responses that i was looking for, i wasn't 100% on tuning a shonky nova engine ;) i was just seeing what classes they run and if there is a few gooduns i may of considered. I got 2 weeks to decide what i want to do, it can literally be anything, successful or not, but it has to be analytical and you have to explain reasons for doing it bla bla bla.
I spoke to my lecture and as mowgli said, if you can find a 'grey' area in the regs of any series and take full advantage of it, then you will have a considerable advantage of the competition, and it will show that your idea was a sucess bla ba, BUT i gotta find a grey area and he said they are very hard to come by nowadays,
Pretty glad i asked on here now tbh, because you lot have opened my eyes a little, there not going to be impressed by someone building a 'nova' engine, hmmmm back to the drawing board me thinks
Oh and i gotta spread the love Mowgli sorry
I was going to have a crack at developing an ABS system for Karting... but rather than using a traditional friction based setup, I was pondering the use of HGV retarder systems but scaled down of course.
there was an experiment we did at a-Level where there was an ali disc spinning and you just placed a pair of magnets either side of the disc and it slowed down at a rate dependant on the magnetic field etc. Uber controllable and properly cool. Wouldnt be permitted as the sole braking device on the road but could be an excellent thing to play with at uni
MattBrown
24-09-10, 12:45 PM
The magnet breaking has been used before, on a dragster, im sure it was on the discovery channel about 5 years ago lol
What about looking at a go-kart engine (2 smoke) and seeing if you can make one produce more power, still within the regs.
Or, make one last more than a couple of hours, and go from there.
the idea is, for example for ford to build one engine spec capable of 750hp. this then gets set as the spec engine. then for rallying, it gets a certain restrictor & map, for touring cars, another. etc
the problem is just like the 'fixed spec' f1 engines, is that there are loopholes & things like the manifolds & fuels can be played with
No one has moved mag braking into the mainstream though.... yes its on HGV's and some twee projects, but nonthing of real substance for the average monkey to see.
bit like electric vehicles, no one will give a toss about them till the Merc/Mcl E-Cell sls is on sale, or the Gt Lightening, and then wait for the prices to drop etc.
MattBrown
24-09-10, 12:49 PM
No one has moved mag braking into the mainstream though.... yes its on HGV's and some twee projects, but nonthing of real substance for the average monkey to see.
bit like electric vehicles, no one will give a toss about them till the Merc/Mcl E-Cell sls is on sale, or the Gt Lightening, and then wait for the prices to drop etc.
Production of the vauxhall ampera is coming though:thumb:
And agreed, but tbh, if you have a go of a 250 long series kart, the brakes will tear your face off if you hit them hard enoughlol
Ampera is a long way off.... the closest is the Nissan Leaf, which is a NORMAL car :) that will be a ground breaker imho. I want a normal car that costs nearly nothing to run, nothing to tax and does 200-250miles per charge to commute in, save burning fossil fuels for the weekend (yes I know a lot of our electricity comes from fossil fuels but its more controllable at the PS end than the car end).
There is also the possibility of using magno/eletro-rheological fluids to make things like open differentials far more 'LSD'y without some of the compromises that an ATB or a Plate diff has etc.
so so so so so so many mad cap areas you can think of to improve/change/innovate in the automotive world.
I was going to have a crack at developing an ABS system for Karting... but rather than using a traditional friction based setup, I was pondering the use of HGV retarder systems but scaled down of course.
there was an experiment we did at a-Level where there was an ali disc spinning and you just placed a pair of magnets either side of the disc and it slowed down at a rate dependant on the magnetic field etc. Uber controllable and properly cool. Wouldnt be permitted as the sole braking device on the road but could be an excellent thing to play with at uni
the trouble with retarders is that they only seem to work well on low revving diesels. i just don't think a small high revver can do it.
induction braking is another great idea, & they were testing it in the sixties at MIRA, (i know a chap who farms right on the test track) on hgv's but the cost & weight were another enormous factor.
i always like the kers type thing. it would be awesome on a rally car, giving one hell of a kick out of a corner.. porsche are running a williams flywheel on a GT3 911 & it added 160hp...
connor, if you got a 1400xe, there is no way you couldn't improve the inlet tract. you could build a plenum & try some different trumpets, and do a whole study on the torque/power characteristics.
the trouble with retarders is that they only seem to work well on low revving diesels. i just don't think a small high revver can do it.
induction braking is another great idea, & they were testing it in the sixties at MIRA, (i know a chap who farms right on the test track) on hgv's but the cost & weight were another enormous factor.
i always like the kers type thing. it would be awesome on a rally car, giving one hell of a kick out of a corner.. porsche are running a williams flywheel on a GT3 911 & it added 160hp...
the 'new' Lotus Elite will have a Kers setup in it for the road :) should be fun.
Iduction braking is scaleable though, to an extent, small light vehicle only needs a little extra help to drop the inertia etc.
i'm really beginnning to wish i'd bothered at college........
i'm really beginnning to wish i'd bothered at college........
makes no odds really..... what I did at uni isnt massively relevant to the field of car toys I was in and will soon be in again
Right been thinking, a cheapish project.
Finding the best fueling method.
Ie either getting a standard 1.4 8v(as an example could be any engine just dont know what one yet) and trying the standard pierburg 2e,
then maybe a webber 32/34, then getting an injection head (if there the same bar been designed for injection) and trying the injection system.
And finally to try a set of bike carbs (R1s) to see what differences each on makes and conclude whats best for what purpose etc.
Good idea or not? Whats the best method to analise it, thinking the engine dyno's we have, and maybe trying to draw each manifold on solidworks or similar and see which flows better etc etc, opinions please
MK1_Ben
24-09-10, 11:36 PM
A mixture of Dyno, Emissions readings, Actual performance figures (0-60s, 60-80, etc)
Yer thanks mate, sounds like a plan to me
A chap at uni when I was there did similar with a Fiesta 1.4 8v... the obvious conclusion was fuel injection was best everytime... lol
i might be able to help with lending a loom & some jetronic stuff, including head & manifold, but unless you get sponsored by a gasket maker, it'll cost some money..
Well i got about 5-6 different ideas planned, on monday, i'm off to go speak to my main lecturers to see there opinion(probably say there all crap lol) and go from there
Mowgli: Once decided i will let you know what the plan is, and who needs head gaskets when you got cocopops boxes (JOKES) lol
Nah local motor factors loove me so should be able to get some deals flowing :thumb:
connor, if you've never used a kelloggs gasket, you've never really lived...
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