View Full Version : bike carbed xe
nitrousnova
18-08-10, 10:05 PM
has any one got any pics of a xe on bike carbs, and what are peoples veiws!? thanks :d
tom reid
18-08-10, 10:59 PM
Very good, but I'm biasedlol
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16764489@N05/3586063165/
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3559/3586061947_92ee48b094_m.jpg
tom reid
18-08-10, 10:59 PM
Very good, but I'm biasedlol
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16764489@N05/3586063165/
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3559/3586061947_92ee48b094_m.jpg
Brodie_Sri
18-08-10, 11:33 PM
Heres mine i have owned it for just over a year now realy carnt fault the bike carbs its realy responsive good to drive were ever the revs are.
I would definatly recomend bike carbs:thumb:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/brodie_sri/02072010457.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/brodie_sri/02072010458.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/brodie_sri/02072010459.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/brodie_sri/02072010460.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/brodie_sri/02072010455.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/brodie_sri/02072010456.jpg
Ok, heres a more relevant question, has anyone got any proof bike carbs work on a XE?
Not interested in pub BHP figures.
More interested in 1/4mile and such?
Ok, heres a more relevant question, has anyone got any proof bike carbs work on a XE?
Not interested in pub BHP figures.
More interested in 1/4mile and such?
Me too - still an unknown imho
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 10:46 AM
from what i've seen, no.
So why do people do it then?
I'm sure tom R will be able to help on this one as he seems to do a few of these.
I cant belive people would do it so much if it wasnt doing anything. Also there is no reason why they shouldnt work well with an xe.
Basically, I'm sure there are better ways to get the same power output/drive than to just add bike carbs.
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 10:54 AM
Basically, I'm sure there are better ways to get the same power output/drive than to just add bike carbs.
Yeh I dont doubt that but with other things as well, It would help.
And dont forget its much much cheaper than a set of 45's
Plus it looks good on the pub fact sheet.....lol
IME bike carbs do not work on car engines at all, not just XE's.
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 11:10 AM
IME bike carbs do not work on car engines at all, not just XE's.
Why? And they clearly do work on car engines Iv seen them run, if there is any advantage I'm not sure.
i think it started from kitcar/speacials builders who had to run carbs, and didnt have the cash for 45's etc. ive seen alot of std engines go on a rr wih just bike carbs fitted and make std or less than std power. also a bike engine is designed to rev to 11-15k rpm, and the carbs are designed for this, most of a bike power hits very close to the redline, and the carbs are designed to suit this, aswell as the pulse tuning/ and the forces a bike exudes on its mass. thus meaning on a street xe 6.5k redline they are not in their "comfort zone" if it was me, id be using bike bodies and 3d mappable ecu.
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 11:32 AM
i think it started from kitcar/speacials builders who had to run carbs, and didnt have the cash for 45's etc. ive seen alot of std engines go on a rr wih just bike carbs fitted and make std or less than std power. also a bike engine is designed to rev to 11-15k rpm, and the carbs are designed for this, most of a bike power hits very close to the redline, and the carbs are designed to suit this, aswell as the pulse tuning/ and the forces a bike exudes on its mass. thus meaning on a street xe 6.5k redline they are not in their "comfort zone" if it was me, id be using bike bodies and 3d mappable ecu.
Im sure iv seen some dyno print out of very high revving xe on bike carbs before.....
I was going to use bike carbs but decided that bike itbs would be a better option.
Ive never seen a RR printout from a bike carbd engine from a trusted rolling road.
Would be mega interesting to see a bike carb'd xe on Track N Roads rollers for example.
I think a LOT of people assume there engines making a lot more power because it sounds gruntier.
As said, 1/4 mile times do really speak as terminals etc give a good indication of what kind of power an engines making.
And bike carbs arent much cheaper than 45s when a manifold costs a few hundred if you go with Bogg Bro's or whoever, and then the price of the carbs which seem to have trebled since bike breakers etc have clocked onto the fact that people like shoving them on car engines. lol
R1 carb conversion on a xe by Bogg Bros was about £700ish i seem to remember from TV mag, you can do 45s for less.
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 12:12 PM
And bike carbs arent much cheaper than 45s when a manifold costs a few hundred if you go with Bogg Bro's or whoever, and then the price of the carbs which seem to have trebled since bike breakers etc have clocked onto the fact that people like shoving them on car engines. lol
R1 carb conversion on a xe by Bogg Bros was about £700ish i seem to remember from TV mag, you can do 45s for less.
I'm sorry but its far cheaper to do a bike car conversion. Bogg Bros is very expensive to be honest. Fine its acceptable for a non competent person, but for me I can Do most of the work. I can tell you I can buy everything needed for a lot lot less than 700.
For a decent set of 45's your looking at well over £400 on there own. let alone dizzy/fpr/pump etc.
I'm going for ITBs as it doesnt work out that much more than 45's with a bigger gain/possiblitys
I would happily put them on for the noise :roll: lol
JordyzNova
19-08-10, 12:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yREJEJUjXJI
my bros in his old belmont
What are bike carbs worth 2nd hand though?
45's and TB's dotn tend to drop in vlue by much more than 20% so short term might appear to cost more than a bike carb setup, but long term would actually 'cost' less.
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 12:39 PM
What are bike carbs worth 2nd hand though?
45's and TB's dotn tend to drop in vlue by much more than 20% so short term might appear to cost more than a bike carb setup, but long term would actually 'cost' less.
I got some carbs that came off a c20xe reddy jetted etc for £60 so If that drops in value by 20% I really dont care.....its a few quid.....If I where doing carbs now Id use 45's but im not.....
I'm sorry but its far cheaper to do a bike car conversion. Bogg Bros is very expensive to be honest. Fine its acceptable for a non competent person, but for me I can Do most of the work. I can tell you I can buy everything needed for a lot lot less than 700.
For a decent set of 45's your looking at well over £400 on there own. let alone dizzy/fpr/pump etc.
I'm going for ITBs as it doesnt work out that much more than 45's with a bigger gain/possiblitys
It depends, you can and do get bargains :thumb:
For instance i bought a SBD T45 inlet for a xe, for £43, at a push you could get some 45s for £200 maybe?
And then megajolt/edis for £100?
Plus setup, which you need for bike carbs too.....
I got some carbs that came off a c20xe reddy jetted etc for £60 so If that drops in value by 20% I really dont care.....its a few quid.....If I where doing carbs now Id use 45's but im not.....
you misread what I put.
45's etc would only drop 20% or so
Where as someone would have probably paid near £700ish for that bike carb setup you got for £60 ;)
tom reid
19-08-10, 05:00 PM
Bike carbs DO work, on almost any engine, to a certain degree, a carb is a carb is a carb, it doesn't know that it's supposed to work on only one engine type, on the engines iv'e used them on they give you more low down grunt/ throttle response than std inj ever can. The reason I got into them was due to the cost of 45's hold up very well , so if you want to tune your engine beyond a chip and four branch manifold, bike carbs will do it cheaper than 45's, if you can do the work yourself, if you can't, your stuck with having to get someone else to tune them, same as 45's or throttle bodies.
The performance is as good as 45's, in that you have one choke per cyl, plus you don't get stuck with having to choke down your bike carbs as 45's do, they have a CVC, constantly variable choke, the noise is as good as 45's toolol
Chimp ran his car up the strip on bike carbs and had a time pretty much the same as a std inj set up the year before.
I would never say that bike carbs on their own will give more power than std, but they do give you the option of more tuning should you wish.
All the talk from Adam and the like about them not working and being "way too big" for some engines is just that, talk, who was it that bought all the stuff to bike carb a small block XE, then promptly sold it all?:p
I would love to be able to use throttle bodies and mappable ecu, but I won't use something on my car that I can't fix if it goes wrong, I hate being dependant on other people,so until I get into tuning TB's etc, they stay off.
Tuning TB's is easier than carbs imho as you can do it all on the fly and only requires a cheap ass laptop. WIN
tom reid
19-08-10, 05:23 PM
Tuning TB's is easier than carbs imho as you can do it all on the fly and only requires a cheap ass laptop. WIN
But, you know how to tune them, I don't, but willget round to it.
Having played with Megasquirt(I know you don't like it Stuart), there is more to it than meets the eye.
I like the concept of it, but Mtech have done about 50% of the improvements I think it needs lol.
MS isnt the most user friendly way to get into it either :(
Tbh if you can run an oven or washing machine, you can setup an ecu... how well you do it is a matter of time and patience.
how well you do it is a matter of time and patience.
Which is why most tend to run bad as people rush them to get it to the "that'll do stage" and leave it! Its the final adjustments that make the difference!;)
tom reid
19-08-10, 05:50 PM
Agree with both the above.
MS does get you thinking though, injector flow rates and sizes, off throttle fuel supply etc, I'm not up to speed on any of that, so I'd want to understand it, before I probably funk an enginelol
Been told that Emerald is quite user friendly, any experience??
They are all much of a muchness, bar sleazymap and Autronic (although Autronic does get a lot easier once you get into the wrong mindset lol)
nitrousnova
19-08-10, 06:51 PM
Thanks for all your views.
Spoke to bogg brothers today.. They said you'd get a gain of about 15bhp from the right bike carbs and there's much more room for tuning over standard injection if you running cams etc.
They also said If I send them a set of carbs there clean them and service them, rejet them and make a manifold for about £300, then I'd need to get a different fuel pump, distributor etc.
Didn't think that was to bad personally.
bike carbs are rude.......on a bikelol
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 07:21 PM
you misread what I put.
45's etc would only drop 20% or so
Where as someone would have probably paid near £700ish for that bike carb setup you got for £60 ;)
No I got what you ment.....just pointing out to other people that £700 is far too much money to be spending on bike carbs........£60 like me and its not so bad.....
tom reid
19-08-10, 07:26 PM
Thanks for all your views.
Spoke to bogg brothers today.. They said you'd get a gain of about 15bhp from the right bike carbs and there's much more room for tuning over standard injection if you running cams etc.
They also said If I send them a set of carbs there clean them and service them, rejet them and make a manifold for about £300, then I'd need to get a different fuel pump, distributor etc.
Didn't think that was to bad personally.
Save yourself some money,clean and service then yourself, send me your jets and I'll send you some already drilled to suit.
Pump and reg is about 75 quid from Rally Design( I'm not a fan of the bike pumps)
Source a manifold yourself,they are available secondhand for about a hundred quid.
Go for MegaJolt over the dizzy, you won't be dissapointed.
dutch kid has a c20xe on R1 carbs, iirc it had 170-175hp on the dyno (engine dyno)
dutch kid has a c20xe on R1 carbs, iirc it had 170-175hp on the dyno (engine dyno)
Just the bike carbs and nothing else?
336 views and still no actual proof they work.
Enough said?
tom reid
19-08-10, 09:46 PM
336 views and still no actual proof they work.
Enough said?
Talking carp:p
Dyno/rolling road figures are not the be all and end all...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI78OGbV2kY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzHENsbORZM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzM9aHTng_Q&feature=related
Talking carp:p
Dyno/rolling road figures are not the be all and end all...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI78OGbV2kY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzHENsbORZM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzM9aHTng_Q&feature=related
I said Im not interested in Pub BHP, more 1/4mile, especially terminal speeds.
Them video's prove nothing, just some burke ragging a car with bike carbs up and down an industrial estate.
When you TB a car you see a noticeable difference, and feel it, same with 45s/48s.
Ive never seen a car with bike carbs that I think, yeh that was worth the money.
i have an issue with fitting any type of carbs.... you wouldn't go out & buy a flatscreen black & white telly, or a portable record player, now would you??? carbs ran out of technological advances about 40 years ago........efi is simply so much more efficient in how it makes power.
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 10:41 PM
i have an issue with fitting any type of carbs.... you wouldn't go out & buy a flatscreen black & white telly, or a portable record player, now would you??? carbs ran out of technological advances about 40 years ago........efi is simply so much more efficient in how it makes power.
But is not to MOST car enthusiats, so to you and I Efi is simple. Carbs are still appealing due to cost and simpleness FACT.
Bike carbs are just a way of getting somthing for less.
yes, noise & crap fuel mileage.
Angus Closier
19-08-10, 10:56 PM
yes, noise & crap fuel mileage.
Your forgeting on the pub spec list its at the top.....bike carbs are a bit of a fashion item tbh..........seems rust and bike carbs are the thing to do.....Your car will get worse by the day...lol lol
tom reid
20-08-10, 12:33 AM
Yadda, yadda, yadda
from everything said so far, i am concluding that most of the modded cars simply aren't actually any faster, but a few are brilliant....
1. top end power is not the be all and end all of tuning... torque is king on the road or rally stage.. so 1/4 miles might not improve by much
2. when someone gets some webers properly, they have chokes & jets fitted to suit the characteristics of the engine, which is a bit of a black art, but basically the carb gets tailored to the engine. with a bike carb, it appears that they get bolted on & thats pretty much it...
3. there is a lot to getting the intake tract at the correct length, but this is beyond the budgets of most people because dyno time is v expensive
from everything said so far, i am concluding that most of the modded cars simply aren't actually any faster, but a few are brilliant....
1. top end power is not the be all and end all of tuning... torque is king on the road or rally stage.. so 1/4 miles might not improve by much
2. when someone gets some webers properly, they have chokes & jets fitted to suit the characteristics of the engine, which is a bit of a black art, but basically the carb gets tailored to the engine. with a bike carb, it appears that they get bolted on & thats pretty much it...
3. there is a lot to getting the intake tract at the correct length, but this is beyond the budgets of most people because dyno time is v expensive
1. OK - I can live with that - except that your never going to get mega-torque from an N/A engine - so mores deffo better for the quarter mile.
2. Disagree with the 'black art' reference - its an older school technology and there are less people fiddling with them, but it really isnt difficult if you know what you're doing
3. Agreed
i was gonna say carbs arnt a black art, read dave vizards book....
but its always an approximation for carbs, wheras efi is usually 'perfect' :)
true, carbs are not 100% prefect through 100% of the rev range.
i stand by the black art reference. there are a few people who can make an unbelievable difference to a weber setup based on old fashioned experience.... and it is a dying skill. the average car mechanic would rather sit on a pineapple than set a pair up
i'd be happy to have a go at some webers, i've read numerous books on it, the thing is, people buy any old weber and slap it on, did you know there is a specific type of dcoe 45 thats made just for the xe? it has different progression drillings and is jetted for a standard engine, from the weber factory. its when baz,daz and sid fit some 30 year old 1.6 alfa carbs and expect 190bhp. i've seen and been in 2-3 weber'd xe's, one making 232bhp....
MattBrown
20-08-10, 03:18 PM
i have an issue with fitting any type of carbs.... you wouldn't go out & buy a flatscreen black & white telly, or a portable record player, now would you??? carbs ran out of technological advances about 40 years ago........efi is simply so much more efficient in how it makes power.
Its power per ££££
I personally want to fit some R1 carbs to my xe track car, as fuel etc isnt an issue.
I am in the middle atm, of, is it worth it?
My EFI works as it should?
And twin 45's are also cool aslol
i stand by the black art reference. there are a few people who can make an unbelievable difference to a weber setup based on old fashioned experience.... and it is a dying skill. the average car mechanic would rather sit on a pineapple than set a pair up
You are saying trhat an experienced person can set them up, but its a black art? Kind of a contradiction....
I know what you are getting at though - deffo a dying art - not a black one!lol
You are saying trhat an experienced person can set them up, but its a black art? Kind of a contradiction....
I know what you are getting at though - deffo a dying art - not a black one!lol
black art - A collection of arcane, unpublished, and (by implication) mostly ad-hoc techniques developed for a particular application
you could read a thousand books on the subject & be none the wiser as to how to tune one properly, but someone who is experienced in the black art of carb tuning will be able to work out whats wrong from 10 yards away
black art - A collection of arcane, unpublished, and (by implication) mostly ad-hoc techniques developed for a particular application
you could read a thousand books on the subject & be none the wiser as to how to tune one properly, but someone who is experienced in the black art of carb tuning will be able to work out whats wrong from 10 yards away
OK - well clearly I had no idea what Black Art meant. :roll:
There are a number of garages around me in the Valleys of Wales and in Bristol actually who are reputable Webber Specialists - perhaps these are just 'fronts' for magic circle gatherings? :)
more like they were brought up on rally prepping escorts.....
c20 nva
20-08-10, 04:29 PM
i had r1 carbs on my car made 130 hp
with out the carbs 165 hp
and i took mine to bogg brothers. lost the head with them sold them lol
i agree with mowgli, fine tuning webers is an art. luckely i know a guy who's been playing with carbs for about 25 years, and his dad over 40 yrs.
i dont believe in bike carbs, cheap way of getting carb sounds, but not the bhp a proper set of webers can give.
i have an issue with fitting any type of carbs.... you wouldn't go out & buy a flatscreen black & white telly, or a portable record player, now would you??? carbs ran out of technological advances about 40 years ago........efi is simply so much more efficient in how it makes power.
yes i see your point but what happens if you aint got £1k for a ITB's or a LET and want more power? YOu do it the best way you can and thats Carbs was a simple easy diy option for me as i dont have the money or know how for injection mapping etc
nova ian
20-08-10, 06:15 PM
I'm no expert by no means, but howcome alot of big horse power competition xe's built by the likes of toovey etc used in hot rod racing and those ascar style pickup things all seem to run webbers over throttle bodies. I know they run management which enables accurate mapping, but the mechanical technology of the carb is still as everyone keeps saying 'old skool'. These engines easily achieve around 250bhp+ and there's no injection or itb's in sight.
As said I don't know enough to know why this is but just thought I'd add it into the mix as it's proved that this setup works and that carbs aren't passed it. I know bike carbs are different to webbers and I don't dispute it, but I'm pretty confident that I will see gains on my engine, and as soon as it's running and setup I will let you know if it does make more power/torque.
Interesting reading guys...I've got a set of GSXR TB's sat here, would they be any use/gains with MS etc?
c20 nva
20-08-10, 06:33 PM
chip has a corsa on bike tb's making 171 bhp
XE Corsa on bike throttle bodies - 171bhp graph on page 4 (http://www.vauxhall-sport-forum.com/phpBB2/xe-corsa-on-bike-throttle-bodies-171bhp-graph-on-page-4-t13340.html)
Hotrods still run carbs due to the low fuel pressure. They look at the injection set up as unsafe due to the higher pressure.
45 can be very easy to set up even if your not to sure what your doing. Buy a colour tune and a balancing gauge and bash on
I said Im not interested in Pub BHP, more 1/4mile, especially terminal speeds.
Them video's prove nothing, just some burke ragging a car with bike carbs up and down an industrial estate.
When you TB a car you see a noticeable difference, and feel it, same with 45s/48s.
Ive never seen a car with bike carbs that I think, yeh that was worth the money.pub bhp burkelol lol lol lol
C612DNM
20-08-10, 09:48 PM
If you're interested in 1/4mile then you need cubic inches my boy. There is no substitute - torque = accelleration, not horsepower.
As far as bike carbs are concerned, if they were sooooo great everyone in the circuit racing world would be using them, but are they.... no.
They are a cheap option compared to putting DCOE's on a car, and they often allow good inlet tract angles compared to DCOE's (using R1 carbs) BUT, compared to bottle throddies with decent management, they don't cut the mustard. It's all about getting out of the corner to the next one.
Having raced Nova's since the 1990's, on carbs and injection, there is no substitute for injection when it comes to driveability.
However, Harry as a sodding great carbertoooter on the top of his V8, but the yanks have had plenty of years of motorsport practice to make it work, and it does. Injection on that little (6.7L) V8 would bring up much more driveability and low-mid-range grunt, but how much more torque do you need when 1/4throttle can light up the rear tyres at times.....
Im running bike carbs, and megajolt - and altho ive never had the car on a rolling road or up the strip (figures arent my thing) - I can definately say that the bike carbs do work. If anyone is in the area and wants a run out in it im happy to let you make up your own minds lol. Im just debating on cams and gearing at the moment.
At the end of the day they are a low cost (and as tom said before - DIY) option versus throttle bodies.
I dont (personally) know anyone that has had a bad experience with them after they have been properly setup. It seems to be very similar to all the bad things you hear about webers - 'they go out of tune every 5 min' 'theyre crap on fuel' 'theyre ancient' 'theyre too expensive' yada yada yada.
ive built an xe on R1 carbs, wossners, rods, headwork, newman 270 cams and tony law manifold...made 190bhp@wheels at only 6.5k in a westy.
a 'professional' xe biased engine builder had one of his engines in a mk2 escort on mates rollers on twin 45s, dry sumped, solid lifted and on his own grind cams that made only 197bhp@ wheels at 8.2k rpm.
ive not got any 0-60 times or 1/4 mile times for the westy as the lad is in uni and ive not spoken to him that much. but it shows they work.
im putting r1 carbs on my c16xe, but im going to be running:
steel rods
hi-comp cp pistons
Catcams 285 long duration cams
springs, platforms etc and a tony law manifold/custom system
soon as its built ill get print outs. even martin bowyer who a few people know reckons i should be pusgin around 180bhp on the spec im building...and could squeeze up to another 20bhp going onto a solid profile cam.
one lad over on migweb i did a head for, 86.5mm stock pistons rebuilt on bike carbs....166@wheels, about 195bhp @ fly, another motor showing that carbs work..all these cars are used on my mates rollers and all pretty accurate.
bike carbs work better than 45mm carbs mid range due to their sliding chokes and give same peak power. mates even tried it on one car using 45s then fitting bike carbs and gained more driveability/mid range power than the webers and still made same peak power.
I'm going for ITBs as it doesnt work out that much more than 45's with a bigger gain/possiblitys
if you buy 2nd hand...ecu and mapping could set you back nearly £1200 or so. and there isnt a huge huge gain power wise, just because you can control the fuelling/timing better there more economical(who cares if your fitting in first place haha) and alosu makes the car more driveable too especially if using really lumpy cams.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/philbug/IMGP2207.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/philbug/IMGP2201.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/philbug/IMGP2265.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/philbug/IMGP2266.jpg
so basically, what you are saying is that if you massively modify an engine & then fit bike carbs & set it up properly, it will make huge power......which is obvious really
all of the other answers have been based on slapping a set onto a std engine. where the gains are questionable
chips made 174bhp on bike carbs on a stock engine.
and the one i did that only thing modified was the head...which i dont think is massively modifed made 166@wheels on them, so gains arent questionable when they make good gains for what they are.
i think the question that needs answering is just which carbs are being fitted, because there must be hundreds of different types knocking about.
my mates have found that its either R1 carbs or mainly ZX6R carbs are the ones to go for. chester sports cars by me are selling zx6r bike carbs conversion kits for the 1.7 zetec se now. not sure gains yet as not asked mate. but my mates using zx6r carbs on his mk2 golf and is going to fit them to his vr6 too, and a few of the grassing lads are unsing the zx6r carbs
just how many of those are getting crashed (or nicked for the parts)???
no idea, mate got his carbs off a breakers off ebay, and no idea where chester sportcars get theirs from:S
when i looked on ebay, there were about 40-50sets of zx6r carbs on there
tom reid
21-08-10, 08:31 AM
[quote=mowgli)
all of the other answers have been based on slapping a set onto a std engine. where the gains are questionable[/quote]
Bike carbs DO work, on almost any engine, to a certain degree, a carb is a carb is a carb, it doesn't know that it's supposed to work on only one engine type, on the engines iv'e used them on they give you more low down grunt/ throttle response than std inj ever can.
I don't "slap" them on any engine. I don't visit dyno's/rolling roads for figures, but that doesn't mean they are not an improvment.
You really are a twit!
ive had a good few cars with both 40/45 dcoe webers and on nova with r1 carbs and tbh none of them had a lot more power tham with ijection not even the carbs, they probably would have mad a difference with more modifications, head work & cams etc but on a standard engine i didnt see much gain. and yes they were jetted and set up properly. i hae to say though i prefered the r1 carbs i put 40 dcoes on my old gte had them jetted and set ce for a few months but they would always fall out of tune, like every other doe carb'd motor ive had, changed them for the r1 set up and the car wasnt any faster but i only had to get it set up once
Bike carbs DO work, on almost any engine, to a certain degree, a carb is a carb is a carb, it doesn't know that it's supposed to work on only one engine type, on the engines iv'e used them on they give you more low down grunt/ throttle response than std inj ever can.
I don't "slap" them on any engine. I don't visit dyno's/rolling roads for figures, but that doesn't mean they are not an improvment.
You really are a twit!
tom. i've been around long enough to know that a great many 'improvements' simply don't work.... fatter tyres & lowered into the weeds is a great look, but rarely a great driving experience, or the car go any quicker, sticking in a lairy cam that makes 5hp on the top end usually makes 5 less hp lower down the rev range, etc etc... and without actual proof of improvements, as in rolling road charts, it is down to the person who has fitted them to say how much better it is, and most people aren't going to tell you that it didn't make a huge improvement and that they've just wasted hundreds of quid to find it out.
carbs are not, IMO the great tuning cure all, they might help with midrange grunt, they might allow you to rev higher, but getting them to pass an mot emissions test & get decent fuel mileage are not going to be anywhere as easy as using a mappable injection system.
I also appreciate that a lot of people are against electronics and prefer to use carbs because they understand them better.
i've seen stuff on this thread where people have gained 20-25 hp over std on a bike carbed xe. it will have cost around £5-600 for that as a guess, and a cam regrind & a remap would be a similar amount and the gains would most likely be a lot better, in terms of torque and drivability......and emissions & economy..
The Simps
21-08-10, 12:10 PM
I'm going with R1s on my basically stock XE engine but making the runners straight to see what difference it makes (it also looks better! lmao). The only reason Im going carbs is for tunability and a chance to learn some basic mapping using the megajolt before I venture deeper and also because there's very little wiring involved with carbs so looks neater.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/TheSimps/Nova/Nova%20Coupe%20Project/13-09-098.jpg
tom. i've been around long enough to know that a great many 'improvements' simply don't work.... fatter tyres & lowered into the weeds is a great look, but rarely a great driving experience, or the car go any quicker, sticking in a lairy cam that makes 5hp on the top end usually makes 5 less hp lower down the rev range, etc etc... and without actual proof of improvements, as in rolling road charts, it is down to the person who has fitted them to say how much better it is, and most people aren't going to tell you that it didn't make a huge improvement and that they've just wasted hundreds of quid to find it out.
carbs are not, IMO the great tuning cure all, they might help with midrange grunt, they might allow you to rev higher, but getting them to pass an mot emissions test & get decent fuel mileage are not going to be anywhere as easy as using a mappable injection system.
again, not entirely true
the 2/3 cars round here all passed MOT emissions with flying colours and were getting near enough the same MPG as standard when driven normally (MPG when racing/driving spirited is irrelevant)
even if people posted RR figures people would only say that the operator fudged them etc
i get the impreesion people are poo pooing them because they've heard internet stories about them (similar to the webber myths), the biggest problem with bie carb set-ups is people expect bolt-on power from them as standard. people dont put the time in drilling jets, setting the floats etc someone said a good webber man sets his carbs to the individual engine, well same scenairo with bike carbs.
imo too many internet engineers and kids buy them, cant fit them then bitch about them being useless and thats how rumours start. dont forget not everyone who works on cars posts every little detail on the internetzs Y0
and id have TB's if i could afford it/work on them myself but untill then ill stick with my R1's and maybe learn something along the way
ive got tbs on my 20xe but decided to go bike carbs....because i didnt want to spend another £1500+ on bodies for my c16xe, ive also seen that they DO make a very good improvement, rolling road lads rate them quite high and they deal alot with the rally lads etc so set up bike carbs/tbs, tbs, webers etc and in the end i managed to get r1 carbs and mani for what it cost for just the manifold. so bargain.
and tbh why do peop-le go on about mpg? i couldnt give a rats **** what mpg i was getting aslong as the car was fuelling right and went well for what has been done.
i didnt build my 20xe to give 30mpg, i built it to give me 260+bhp and to have a laugh lol
tom reid
21-08-10, 08:50 PM
tom. i've been around long enough to know that a great many 'improvements' simply don't work.... fatter tyres & lowered into the weeds is a great look, but rarely a great driving experience, or the car go any quicker, sticking in a lairy cam that makes 5hp on the top end usually makes 5 less hp lower down the rev range, etc etc... and without actual proof of improvements, as in rolling road charts, it is down to the person who has fitted them to say how much better it is, and most people aren't going to tell you that it didn't make a huge improvement and that they've just wasted hundreds of quid to find it out.
carbs are not, IMO the great tuning cure all, they might help with midrange grunt, they might allow you to rev higher, but getting them to pass an mot emissions test & get decent fuel mileage are not going to be anywhere as easy as using a mappable injection system.
I also appreciate that a lot of people are against electronics and prefer to use carbs because they understand them better.
i've seen stuff on this thread where people have gained 20-25 hp over std on a bike carbed xe. it will have cost around £5-600 for that as a guess, and a cam regrind & a remap would be a similar amount and the gains would most likely be a lot better, in terms of torque and drivability......and emissions & economy..
Mowgli, maybe youv'e been around too long and forgotten what you never knew in the first place. Have you pubic hair on your chin, cause you talk like you havelol.
Youv'e not completed a bike carb conversion, nor have you tuned bike carbs?, I think you should wipe you mouth now thatyouv'e been to the toilet.
Emissions, mot, reliability, driveability, power, control, no problem with R1's.
tom, i have never to my knowledge met or decided to personally insult you simply because my opinion isn't the same as yours.
end of conversation
tom reid
22-08-10, 06:16 PM
I don't have an opinion, I KNOW for a fact that what I say is true.
I didn't insult you, If you want to be insulted ask me for sex, when I say NO, that is me insulting you.:eek:
Chill baby:thumb:
MattBrown
03-09-10, 10:23 AM
Sorry to bump.
This is info I was given by a friend yesterday.
Him and his dad run chester sports cars, and they have done a few xe engines on bike carbs, with amazing results.
He does a kit, with zx6r carbs (36mm)
As r1 carbs are 42, and are too big.
He says, between 180-190bhp with his inlet, carbs, and megajolt.
£780 for the kit, with everything, including his ignition map.
He has proof of them on the rollers, doing 190bhp.
Is it worth me getting them for the track car?
Before I do all the work for the lines etc in aeroquip?
is that on a PROPER set of rollers?
I'd expect 185ishMAX! on an XE with 42mm Jenveys.. and given the carbs mentioned are 36mm you wont be getting 190+bhp's (pumping losses, friction etc) worth of air through them given T40's will give no extra peak power and they are choked to 35ishmm
dj_wudgey
03-09-10, 12:35 PM
I would happily put them on for the noise :roll: lol
id rather go with 40's for that!!
MattBrown
03-09-10, 12:43 PM
is that on a PROPER set of rollers?
I'd expect 185ishMAX! on an XE with 42mm Jenveys.. and given the carbs mentioned are 36mm you wont be getting 190+bhp's (pumping losses, friction etc) worth of air through them given T40's will give no extra peak power and they are choked to 35ishmm
Oddly, thats exactly what I said to the fellalol
He said, 42mm causes air cavitiations? And is too big, keeps the velocity of the air down:confused:
Also said, you choke 45mm carbs to 36mm:confused:
Im going for either carbs or bike carbs, but as he is a well known fella, im debating going to him for some:thumb:
lol of course he'd say another product wont work if he wants your business ;)
Was it on a real set of rollers, or his mate with the coffee mug on the probe? lol
MattBrown
03-09-10, 12:47 PM
lol of course he'd say another product wont work if he wants your business ;)
Was it on a real set of rollers, or his mate with the coffee mug on the probe? lol
It was a propper set off wheel rollers (Not the one where you remove engine):thumb:
that still means nothing. WHERE was it done, and was it a happy rollers or REAL rollers...
MattBrown
03-09-10, 07:59 PM
that still means nothing. WHERE was it done, and was it a happy rollers or REAL rollers...
Carlos's place.
A+M conversions.
Been putting xe engines in allsorts since the year dot.
Really, really good guy, top for advice:thumb:
No chance - that seems a tad optimistic for 36mm imo
Look at SBDs site, they have spent the equivalent of 200 years with an XE - and they say 42mm are the way to go - they even admitted that their old kits (45mm) were not creating as much as the 42 parrallels....
BRoadGhost
03-09-10, 11:15 PM
You mean direct to head not parallels.
There's more to consider with induction when it comes to choke sizes.
Understand what's being drawn in before that has more relevance.
Wasted our time putting bike carbs on a Shenpar built motor many years ago before the average Joe even knew they could be fitted to a car! And we (we being jam & shenpar) got **** results then & as far as I can see in this entire thread theres next to no genuine "real world" factual proof denoting a yes or no answer.
Which leads me to the conlcusion of, bike carbs are just that. If there so great & wonderful & stuff & make ten bazillion horsepowers why aren't company's out there mass producing & marketing the components to fit them to a car motor.....
Wasted our time putting bike carbs on a Shenpar built motor many years ago before the average Joe even knew they could be fitted to a car! And we (we being jam & shenpar) got **** results then & as far as I can see in this entire thread theres next to no genuine "real world" factual proof denoting a yes or no answer.
Which leads me to the conlcusion of, bike carbs are just that. If there so great & wonderful & stuff & make ten bazillion horsepowers why aren't company's out there mass producing & marketing the components to fit them to a car motor.....
:thumb:
I also appreciate that a lot of people are against electronics and prefer to use carbs because they understand them better.
i've seen stuff on this thread where people have gained 20-25 hp over std on a bike carbed xe. it will have cost around £5-600 for that as a guess, and a cam regrind & a remap would be a similar amount and the gains would most likely be a lot better, in terms of torque and drivability......and emissions & economy..
you have just told my story lol i spent around £600 on carbs,manifold,dizzy, filters new ampifier having them set up etc etc and low down i did noice a slight increase low down but my mates standard xe didnt really seem that much slower and i have a RR printout for 183bhp but 17mpg isnt nice!! IMO the sound is awesome but save for ITB's or a LET i wish i would of! :thumb:
Matt his cars arent done or werent done at a+m conversions, hes crap at setting the cars, carlos xe corsa was a gud xample. Heard it made 180bhp at 6k. So they lukd at the graph at 8k and guessed that the motor would be making 220bhp.
Chester sports cars for aslong as remember only do zetecs, and a.b. Garage do all their ignition maps for there carb kits.
Zx6r carbs work, and so do r1 carbs, ive built a reasonably mild xe making 225bhp at fly, all my motors go a.b. Garage so I know there not bull**** figures.
I dont thnk thers anything wrong with bike carbs, webers, dels or proper jenveys. All comes to budget and personal preferance. Ive got an all steel 20xe on jenveys and im building a c16xe on bike carbs, so il let you know how I find them.
Matt his cars arent done or werent done at a+m conversions, hes crap at setting the cars, carlos xe corsa was a gud xample. Heard it made 180bhp at 6k. So they lukd at the graph at 8k and guessed that the motor would be making 220bhp.
Chester sports cars for aslong as remember only do zetecs, and a.b. Garage do all their ignition maps for there carb kits.
Zx6r carbs work, and so do r1 carbs, ive built a reasonably mild xe making 225bhp at fly, all my motors go a.b. Garage so I know there not bull**** figures.
I dont thnk thers anything wrong with bike carbs, webers, dels or proper jenveys. All comes to budget and personal preferance. Ive got an all steel 20xe on jenveys and im building a c16xe on bike carbs, so il let you know how I find them.
As per facebook thenlol
Im gonna go and get my dizzy, and ignitor module tommrow.
Get my aunty to get me a brand new coil.
And I already have some aeroquip hoses and fittings.
Just need a filterking reg. and carbs, manfold and a rolling road lol
Paul, feel free to come up/crash at mine on my 1st track day, you can have a go, and see what you think:thumb:
Paul, feel free to come up/crash at mine on my 1st track day, you can have a go, and see what you think:thumb:
Me?
MattBrown
04-09-10, 09:33 PM
Me?
Yes you.
You have been saying about there being no differance.
And I dont really wana take my car out and crash 1st lap, so someone else can lol
General Baxter
04-09-10, 09:47 PM
what he wants to be called on the weekend lol
MattBrown
04-09-10, 09:54 PM
whos Bec?
Gfs account dude lol
Im not taking your car round a track Matt, I would have to think twice if it was Maris' let alone yours I barely even know you.
Cheers for offer though, Ill come out as passenger though?
General Baxter
04-09-10, 10:36 PM
lee will lol
Oddly, thats exactly what I said to the fellalol
He said, 42mm causes air cavitiations? And is too big, keeps the velocity of the air down:confused:
Also said, you choke 45mm carbs to 36mm:confused:
Im going for either carbs or bike carbs, but as he is a well known fella, im debating going to him for some:thumb:
Me and the old man have a Robin hood kit car with a Pinto in it, every one we have spoke to about these engines have said for great realiable Power Go 600 ZXR Carbs and a fast road cam, and they all said don't even bother with twin 40s !!!
We have seen dyno graphs etc and I have no reason to believe they are lieing..
And what Browny has mentioned about 42s being to big is very true on a near standar engine!!
It would cost £500 to get another 30bhp out of a 2.0 pinto with a Cam and a set of bike carbs, in my eyes thats pretty good and atleast you dont have to keep setting them up like twin 40s..
Me and the old man have a Robin hood kit car with a Pinto in it, every one we have spoke to about these engines have said for great realiable Power Go 600 ZXR Carbs and a fast road cam, and they all said don't even bother with twin 40s !!!
We have seen dyno graphs etc and I have no reason to believe they are lieing..
And what Browny has mentioned about 42s being to big is very true on a near standar engine!!
It would cost £500 to get another 30bhp out of a 2.0 pinto with a Cam and a set of bike carbs, in my eyes thats pretty good and atleast you dont have to keep setting them up like twin 40s..
i had mine setup on a bike rolling road mate and they wanted resetting within a couple of months!
novaxe235
05-09-10, 11:06 AM
Me and the old man have a Robin hood kit car with a Pinto in it, every one we have spoke to about these engines have said for great realiable Power Go 600 ZXR Carbs and a fast road cam, and they all said don't even bother with twin 40s !!!
We have seen dyno graphs etc and I have no reason to believe they are lieing..
And what Browny has mentioned about 42s being to big is very true on a near standar engine!!
It would cost £500 to get another 30bhp out of a 2.0 pinto with a Cam and a set of bike carbs, in my eyes thats pretty good and atleast you dont have to keep setting them up like twin 40s.. Why do they have to be set up all the time?
Mates mk2 golf has had bike carbs for over 12mnths and hasnt had to go back once for setting up. It just depends how gud the rolling road is.
scott.parker
05-09-10, 11:59 AM
I wont pretend i know anything about carbs or tunning them, but i do know i listened to first hand experience of others i know in the club who have/had them etc, and as i say I'm no mechanic, and at best cant be bothered to change the wiper blades on my cars at times, so after all this talk of needing specialist set ups of carbs i stumped up a slightly bigger all in one sum (way back in 2005) for a 2nd hand SBD ITB set up, and IMO it's the single best one thing i ever bought for any car, and i could sell my set up tomorrow for more then i paid in 05.
So I'm not saying carbs are crap, but i am saying TB's are better, my engine is standard and it received MASSIVE improvements over the standard EFI set up, and for 1/4 mile i think a standard engine with TB kit doing 13.5's @105 mph is not too bad really..
Scott
MattBrown
05-09-10, 03:56 PM
What aload of bullshat!
If they have been on a bike 8 years, and never been fiddled with, why suddenly do they have to be setup every other month?
How ridiculous.
General Baxter
05-09-10, 03:59 PM
because carbs are gay, simple as lol
i never made a track day at donny a few years ago, set off at 6am, got 10miles down the road, and the fuel froze lol
MattBrown
05-09-10, 04:38 PM
because carbs are gay, simple as lol
i never made a track day at donny a few years ago, set off at 6am, got 10miles down the road, and the fuel froze lol
Petrol freeses at minus 46 degress c, so i call bullshat:wtf:
General Baxter
05-09-10, 04:53 PM
never had carb icing before then
its was -10 outside, then the force of the air being drawn into the carb, rather simple
MattBrown
05-09-10, 04:56 PM
never had carb icing before then
Thats differant.
Thats due to air density and condensation.
You made it sound like the fuel tank had frozen solidlol
General Baxter
05-09-10, 04:57 PM
Thats differant.
Thats due to air density and condensation.
You made it sound like the fuel tank had frozen solidlol
might was well of done lol
MattBrown
05-09-10, 05:00 PM
might was well of done lol
Fook me, your nipples must have been tingly if it was that coldlol
General Baxter
05-09-10, 05:00 PM
yeah it was, stripped inside, no heaters, lol
MattBrown
05-09-10, 05:01 PM
yeah it was, stripped inside, no heaters, lol
Im keeping my heater for this reason!!:d
General Baxter
05-09-10, 05:04 PM
Im keeping my heater for this reason!!:d
no point, you cant drive it there lol
MattBrown
05-09-10, 05:10 PM
no point, you cant drive it there lol
No ****, I also cant drive it on a track without a liscince, so ill be fine once im redriving/its finished lol
Angus Closier
05-09-10, 05:23 PM
No ****, I also cant drive it on a track without a liscince, so ill be fine once im redriving/its finished lol
Get a national race B then.....:thumb:
MattBrown
05-09-10, 05:25 PM
Get a national race B then.....:thumb:
Talk to me.
I will have the car ready by xmas.
If I can take it out next year, I will be very happy:thumb:
Angus Closier
05-09-10, 05:28 PM
Talk to me.
I will have the car ready by xmas.
If I can take it out next year, I will be very happy:thumb:
Depending on which race track you will be using. (not castle coombe) You can just get your national race b licence and use that. Its for people under 17 (and over) to use for racing. But "most" tracks will take that as a valid licence.
Dont quote me on all this, just somthing I started looking into a while ago before i got a licence!
Google it!
MattBrown
05-09-10, 05:29 PM
Depending on which race track you will be using. (not castle coombe) You can just get your national race b licence and use that. Its for people under 17 (and over) to use for racing. But "most" tracks will take that as a valid licence.
Dont quote me on all this, just somthing I started looking into a while ago before i got a licence!
Google it!
Cheers fella:thumb:
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