View Full Version : e16se tuning questions
just what have people done in the past to improve the inlet breathing on the humble 1600gte engine?
would a larger throttle body help? if so, which one?
or has anyone tried the dbilas style 4 throttle bodies & bigger plenum method?
i will not be slapping 40's or bike carbs on it as i consider that a backwards step.
is the c16se management a more tunable design, with the lambda etc??
and i will not be sticking an XE in it either
also, what cams have people successfully used? i intend to be able to potter about in it too, so no crazy stuff
Angus Closier
17-08-10, 06:27 PM
I can only imagine that a larger throttle body would be any use with a differant designed Inlet plenum due to that being the restriction if you upgrade the throttle body. Are bike throttle boddies or propper ITBs not an option? If your going to the extent of thinking of the diablis one.
mk1nova_rich
17-08-10, 06:37 PM
The dBilas style bodies and plenum sounds a good option IMO rather than a single enlarged throttle body, any links to them Mowgli?
General Baxter
17-08-10, 06:38 PM
tbh, the inlet and throttle body, is rather good as it it,
the managment lets it down, get some aftermarket lol
name your bhp and budget, ill give it a go lol
carlton 24v TB was sold as an irmscher upgrade for the E16SE I have heard, 3.0 I think they were?
most 1.8 8v and 2.0 8v wheather it is ne se seh from a astra , cavalier etc should fit also redtop injectors are ment to be good but power boost valve would be needed
tbh, the inlet and throttle body, is rather good as it it,
the managment lets it down, get some aftermarket lol
name your bhp and budget, ill give it a go lol
i'm thinking of around 130-140 hp. i'm going to open the ports up, but obviously i want to sort out the intake design in with the porting, or its not worth it. then there is my idea of using bmw 318 8v valves. which are a tad bigger.
i would like to try a bigger cam but nothing too crazy.
this is more as an exercise in engineering than for anything else. and i simply don't want a bigger engine.
as always, my budget is very low.
i was thinking of looking for a mappable ecu off something else to fit it. i really don't have the means to buy a new one at 500 odd quid.
The dBilas style bodies and plenum sounds a good option IMO rather than a single enlarged throttle body, any links to them Mowgli?
the trouble with dbilas is that reg & al sell them in the uk
i have an idea about about 4 separate bodies with a decent afm. i'm not sure the e16se one is actually that good.
The Dbilas bodies are well known for being really really poor at what they do for how much they cost.
i'm looking at toyota ones...
mk1nova_rich
17-08-10, 07:06 PM
are bike TBs not an option?? GSXR 750 bodies with original injectors and then different/chipped/remapped ECU. Just an idea...
General Baxter
17-08-10, 07:16 PM
no point in TB's if your not running proper managment
taffnova
17-08-10, 10:24 PM
i use piper fast road cam and venier and that ideal for every day use an having fun used to run this on my daily nova as well
no point in TB's if your not running proper managment
baxter, that is probably an ultimate aim, but i can't afford one for a while. the std ecu will cope with a fair bit of extra oomph anyway.
There is a full Dbilas set up on cs for £300 if its any use to you
linky please. i don't go on there as a rule..
I'd really really really really REALLY NOT get dilbert inlets!!!!!!!!
even for less than reg & als's price, its a rip off.
The std inlet is very very capable (see lots of 1.6 8v rally cars with the oem inlet ;) )
You could look at megasquirt, or something "old" like a DTA exp48 as its been superceeded by newer ones etc.
the stock inlet is pants though. the angle from the ports to the manifold is a bit abrupt, i can guess where the 4 pipes hit the plenum are going to be rough cast & not funnelled at all. i have 2 manifolds, and was even thinking about cutting one open & seeing how i can smooth its flow out.
i know an ally welder, so i can get it put back together fairly well.
You could see if anywhere can fluid hone it (passing abrasive fluid though to smooth things out a bit)
The 1.6 8v rally cars with the OEM inlet manifold + other fun bits but nothing epicly lairy were doing the 140-150bhp you are on about... And the Plenums didnt look like they were rewelded etc
rally motors with 12:1 cr and lairy cams with a modded ecu to dump fuel in at an alarming rate still cost a lot of thousands to put together. because they are basically to groupA spec. forgetting group A spec means you can play with different parameters
The one I had a proper play with just had a normal ish CR, an MBE ecu so was fuelled properly, ok it was on a solid profile cam, but it idled fine and didnt lack low end grunt.
but never mind you stick to your guns and mod the bits that dont need it, and leave the bits that do lol
i am already planning head work. i am looking at tidying the inlet up to match the head, the whole intake on an e16se is pretty dire, the flexi hose is nls, and they knacker up regularly. and they were designed to fit in a certain sized hole in 1987, there must be some improvements to make after 23 years..... i know the ecu is going to make a huge chunk of difference, and i am looking at that, but there is an almighty load of vested opinions on the net about the merits of each sort of diy aftermarket ecu, and there is no way they cost what some people are asking for them....
a 1600 injection engine with 10:1cr & a decent head & cam should make a load more than 120hp, before i start on the electronics
i don't really want a rally engine, i want a general all round improvement but still useable on long trips, and i am just playing a bit of devils advocate to get decent opinions.
I know the ECU's about dont "cost" what is charged.. but then peoples development costs need factoring in (bar megasquirt) too.
Where I used to work we sold ECU's for 50euros a pop (making 1 euro profit per unit) and then the dealers would sell the same ecu as a spare part for £1K plus programming.
imho the "rally" engine we had a play with would be fine for regular road use as it wasnt tuned to the max etc. And a well tuned engine will give pwoer and economy when driven appropriately.
I'm just saying that the std inlet manifold (from throttle to head) is very good for what you have in mind and the gains will come from elsewhere (like the stupid flexi hose etc)
craig green
18-08-10, 12:06 PM
The grp-A engines had high comp cosworth pistons & a remapped ECU to get the 150bhp on racing fuel.
The inlet & head were untouched for homologating purposes, so I'd say that should prove that the original design is pretty adequate.
The TB that fits directly to the inlet is the Carlton 2.4 CIH injection version. I've been quietly on the hunt for one for years now. Irmscher actually offered one also which I belive is the same part.
I have had a fast road Piper cam in my GSi for a short time whilst it was ormally aspirated, it added a small amount of extra revs & grunt to the top end with next to no noticeable loss at the bottom end & certainly gave the engine a deeper sound which was nice.
There are 2 tweeks that can be done to the AFM. 1st involves weakening the spring tension on the flap (ever so slightly). 2nd is to get into the potentiometer within, when the flap is wide open, the pot isnt at its furthest point on the contact track, this can be tweeked so the potentiometer moves a tad further to the end of the track.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure some decent headwork with bigger inlet valves would make a worthwhile addition. People used to rave about Blydensteins B & B+ heads. I had a CS15 courtenay head on my turbo'd E16, but I didnt experience it in N/A format to give valid opinion here.
also the frontera has the 2.4 cih, which should have the same t/b. me personally id get a megasquirt setup, and bike bodies for it. then go for a 280ish deg cam.
i heard of the 2.4cih mod before, but never found one... i keep checking around though
i'll keep an eye out mate.
been doing some research & it appears the cih tb was fitted to an irmscher modded c16se with a monotronic ecu... i'm assuming the monotronic is basically the xe type, and thus mappable.
of sorts.... you may have to talk to al and reg :(
although MSD in blackpool might be able to do it...
but I'd imagine a proper "live" remap would cost as much/more than fitting megasquirt and having a play yourself.
the trouble is that there is so much misinformation about diy ecu's that i really don't know which way to look. i know the lad who won the stock hatch in a nova had a mappable one fitted but it was a later dispak type of setup.
craig green
18-08-10, 07:26 PM
also the frontera has the 2.4 cih, which should have the same t/b. me personally id get a megasquirt setup, and bike bodies for it. then go for a 280ish deg cam.
Knowing GM, the TB wont be the same. I have meant to check the Frontera one. Otherwise one from a 2.0 8v should work, but will need an adaptor plate which is grief & not tidy enough if youre like me.
I dont think bike bodies is what Mowgli wants to do, he wants to optimise the std inlet/plenum setup & L-Jetronic I think, though I reckon going to mapped injection would mean more power could be found through higher CR & better ignition.
Buying megasquirt from a reputable seller would be a possible route I'd go down, this is afterall what it is intended for, hobby level engine building where the owner gets to play with it all the way.
you're not far off Dr. i know there are gains to be made from the std setup, and i would like to at least have a go at finding them. the l3.1 is an analogue system, so there must be a way of altering the signal to created a bit more power. crazy revs are not really what i want, but i know there is a good 30hp to be found and i have enough spare bits to have a play.. i am tempted to fit a decent cam, but everybody has fitted something different and got different results.
i have seen lots of vw & bmw throttle bodies that look very similar to the nova one, and i'm not too affraid of making an adaptor, but i'm certain the std inlet has got a lot more potential.. and with porting, it could easily be a restriction to the porting.. maybe those plans i found for a flowbench are not such a crazy idea after all......
anyway, there is chuff all on the telly & i'm using the internet way too much as it is...
General Baxter
18-08-10, 07:39 PM
make your own inlet ?
this was the idea with the tb's then the afm/ecu could be mounted on the end of the plenum, maybe pointing the other way, and get rid of the stupid pipework..... i know the majority of tuning work done to e16se's was for the grA rally project, and it was a restrictive set of rules, then everyone else dropped it for the xe... someone must have done something better than a set of 40's on one.
craig green
18-08-10, 07:46 PM
The insides of the inlet looked Ok to me. I've spent hours cleaning shot out of one, so have had a fairly good look, but fluid honing it as Stu says might open it somewhat. I can say its far better than what Mantzel offer for the twin cams though.
Generally 130bhp was always thought the max with a flowed head, FSE pbv (ahem), 4 branch, filter & fast road cam. Pretty sure my Piper was a 264deg. It was sold as a Courtenay cam but I know it was a Piper due to the box & instruction it came with. No pwer figs though sadly.
Great little project though & needent cost much tbh. Something I have thought of doing myself (amongst millions of other dreams)
General Baxter
18-08-10, 07:50 PM
forced ??????
i have a cunning plan for fluid honing & i will see how it goes... lets just say if it works, it will be right outside of the box.... just something i learnt in my farming days , & it doesn't involve excrement...
forced ??????
it might be an option eventually, but that will bring its own problems......
i did ponder the coopercharger route....as crazy as yours was, it did make good power.....
General Baxter
18-08-10, 07:54 PM
problem is getting it RR'd if i play, john wont let you on his rollers lol
craig green
18-08-10, 07:56 PM
Trouble with forced ind as not all prior tuning is helpfull, raising CR & cam profile usefull to N/A are then not usefull.
problem is getting it RR'd if i play, john wont let you on his rollers lol
there are others baxter, and i wouldn't crap on my doorstep anyway
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