Twin Webers on C14SE.

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

hello folks, got potentially a few problems with my engine and carbs, i bought them of eGay from a bloke called UKCarbs, asked to have them jetted to nova sport spec, clearly the bloke didnt have a clue cos he put 115 mains and 200 airs in on F16 emulsions with 30mm main venturis, i since got 120 mains and 180 airs, and a book on webers, i thought this would rectify the problem of it hunting when it gets over and above 3000rpm, i got it off the front lawn the other day and it was horrific to drive, seemed to pull ok up until it hit 3k, then just totally died and very nearly stalled, i do definitely want to change the emulsions to F11 (since found out that F16's are best suited to airs of 2.00mm (200) or bigger, so F11's are on the cards, and 45F6 idles (got 45F4 atm) but i thought yesterday, is the main circuit even engaging? so float levels are the next thing to be checked, but have absolutely no idea what levels they have to be set to to best suit the C14SE, can anyone with muchos Weber experience help me out?! its driving me mental now...!! thanks!

[mowgli]

two words: rolling road

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

yeah i know mate, i really want to, but there really is no point atm, cos the dyno place are just going to try and abuse me for jets etc, i just want to get it jetted, and running, and driveable before i take it down there, and a rolling road session wont fix my float levels... the dyno place im going to use specialises in fords and all things jap so im not anticipating them having a shred of time or appreciation for my little ol' nova...

[Stuart]

find one that is old skool (ideally no print outs etc) who specialises in CARBS

[garyc]

I doubt you will get abused for jets, you may even find they will do an exchange on what extra ones you have bought. You only pay for the jets you end up with. If your car drives and then I would get it on the rollers. You will be surprised how quickly they figure out problems on there on your engine. Is your distributor working correctly? Is the timing OK? has the cam belt jumped a tooth?

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

cheers Stu, they did say webers are simple to set up, well, far easier than injection systems, cheers Gary, the dizzy is a practically brand new delco remy, im not 100% sure of the timing, i havnt had a light on it yet, but, this is where i run into problems, because i had to run my old 1300 alternator and bottom pulley, to check the crank is TDC id have to put the C14SE pulley back on the bottom, hindsight would say thats a good idea and i probably will do that, just to check, i dont think its jumped a tooth, it was set up properly when i first put it all back together... i do think all the problems arise cos of the lack of being 100% timed up ad the carbs not being set up properly or balanced, i do know all the things ive mentioned are normally the first things that are supposed to be done, just dough is a bit tight atm and i dont want to p1ss money up the wall if i dont have to, if you know what i mean... another problem i have is there is one of two dynos in the surrounding area, the one i mentioned is incredibly doubtful to have the jets etc in stock cos of their jap specialisation, and the other one is not only alot further afield, but is run by a completely arrogant, over charging pen1s, and my ex fiancees brother works there, ie, not an option... bad times...!

[Stuart]

imho you WILL be robbed at the 'jap' place.

plus carbs are harder than injection ;) trust me

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

this is what worries me mate, although they say £45 + vat for a RR session, i have the distinct impression they'll launch a whole shed load of 'extras' onto the bill... plus i start a degree in motorsport engineering in september so ill be hooked up with all the right folk when im there, i just hate the thought of being ripped off...

[blue_peg_16v]

find one that is old skool (ideally no print outs etc) who specialises in CARBS

bogg brothers are proper old school the rolin roading is don by the father who is in his 70s its vertualy all don by ear and then just checked with the meter, when he set my 48s he changed the jets etc but didnt charge me just swaped them for mine full setup cos £60, and theres no print out, and boy did it go better after hed played with it

id also thin that £45 is a power run not a proper rr set up as its difficlut to price as there is no saying how long it will take and what needs doing till you get there and as stu said carbs are harder to get right than injection as injection is maped through the range were carbs are a compramise

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

i would LOVE to get it to bogg brothers mate... but im about as south as you could possibly be, and ether petrol or transport would be mega dosh...

[mowgli]

/\ thus why it is called tuning.... everything else is modification, but to tune a set of carbs is a true artform.

[blue_peg_16v]

i would LOVE to get it to bogg brothers mate... but im about as south as you could possibly be, and ether petrol or transport would be mega dosh...

but would save money in the long run as poorly setup carbs will cost more in fuel and you will end up having to go to a different r/r to get them reset up, tbs i would look for motorsport places rather than shiney r/r places a farm shed setup will usualy be one of the best places to have stuff sorted like this, posh surroundings usualy means a bolt on place that employ halfords rejects and dont have a clue. i know of 4 such setup 2 with r/r and i would recomend to anyone the 2 with r/r are bogg brothers and john noble but there up north

imo a jap tunor will have little experience of carbs so wont know the trick of getting them right, they may well balance them but they wont optimise the setup

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

very very true indeed, but i do want to learn how to do it all myself, not only to be tight as a fishes ar5e but in 2 years, after i finish uni and hoping for a career in motorsport i think it'd be a niche worth cornering, theres not enough people who can tune the so called 'mystical' buggers out there...

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

cheers Blue_peg, i do know the importance of a decent R/R and id love to be able to chuck more money at it, will do come September and the good ol' student loan comes in, but for now im just trying to get it running a bit better, and anything that i can do to save myself a few quid is good imo, im not driving it atm cos its SORN'ed, i know EXACTLY what you mean about 'shiny' places, i hate them... its the one ill end up using but i will be there when its on the rollers, to not only see what they do, but to make sure they dont abuse the redline, cos no doubt they'll have me sign a disclaimer... i do know one AMAZING engine tuner, he doesnt have a R/R but he will be my first choice for any work, then cart it back down the road for the dyno...

[Stuart]

lmfao if you think a 'motorsport' degree will even get you near the understanding needed for carbs. They barely covered how engines work on the course that was run where I went for my automotive electronics course.

Where are you going for it?


As for Carb RR's, I dont know of many your way but there is Peter Baldwin near Cambridge, hes a legend. And I 'think' there is one round bristol that is acceptable (well better than your japone place)

[mowgli]

very very true indeed, but i do want to learn how to do it all myself, not only to be tight as a fishes ar5e but in 2 years, after i finish uni and hoping for a career in motorsport i think it'd be a niche worth cornering, theres not enough people who can tune the so called 'mystical' buggers out there...

tbh, try finding a person to repair a valve radio, or a super 8 cine camera..... cos webers are of the same era.... even the transistor radio is newer technology......

finding some old boy & then trying to get a part time job so you can learn the ways of the weber will probably make you more money than a career in motorsport, which is a notoriously poor payer.

[Stuart]

Stacking shelves in tescos on DAY shift will pay more than 95% of motorsport jobs

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

tbh, try finding a person to repair a valve radio, or a super 8 cine camera..... cos webers are of the same era.... even the transistor radio is newer technology......

finding some old boy & then trying to get a part time job so you can learn the ways of the weber will probably make you more money than a career in motorsport, which is a notoriously poor payer.


yeah i know mate, im planning on doing a couple of days a week for the bloke i mentioned earlier while im at uni, and ill be doing it for the love, not the money, i gave up my plumbing career to do this... i dont aim to be filthy rich, just comfortable, and happy...

[mowgli]

i once tried for a job at mallory park, working for the racing school..... i was very young & earned as much doing 2 evenings at KFC as they were willing to pay for the week

[mowgli]

yeah i know mate, im planning on doing a couple of days a week for the bloke i mentioned earlier while im at uni, and ill be doing it for the love, not the money, i gave up my plumbing career to do this... i dont aim to be filthy rich, just comfortable, and happy...

if you'd stuck at the plumbing, you would be able to afford expensive rolling road sessions............

as much as i love mechaniccing, i'm glad i don't do it full time...

[garyc]

You want somewhere like this http://www.dnbaccounting.co.uk/dnbconsulting.co.uk/aireytuning.com/services.htm

I could reccomend a few places but you'd have to travel around the M25 though!

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

i hated every bloke i ever worked for, treated me like sh1t, and i dont have the head for accounting and stuff so self employed is out of the window, and my knees are getting more shot to sh1t so i thought it best to knock it all on the head, i dont want to be a mechanic, i dont want anything to do with greasy old metro's etc, i want to build or tune race cars, of any description, ive just got a good feeling about going into this sort of thing, ive got more passion for it than you could shake a stick at, just need to get spotted by the right person and it could be plain sailing from then on... and theres not as much money in plumbing as many people believe, unless your one of these dick turpin rip off merchants, i used to do a grade A job and thats just not appreciated any more, especially when a polak will beat your hourly rate by half...

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

cheers Gary, if money were no object then it wouldnt be a problem, but i cant be dealing with carting a car across England and back just for a rolling road session, i do know of very good places, but transport is the issue...

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

noone know then?

[C612DNM]

Rolling Road is your ONLY answer. The price you quoted - £45 plus VAT, I was paying that almost *cough* twenty years ago! So it's cheap. A lot cheaper than taking your new car into the dealers to be plugged into a Tech2!!!

It's a shame that you're not north of the Dartford crossing, I'd suggest you go to Wilshers Garage at New Wimpole, Cambs, and see the master - Mr Peter Baldwin. He'd have that thing singing from the right hymnbook in about half an hour.

I seem to remember that my Sport ran with F4 emulsions after Pete had a look at it. It may have had F11's. That's a tube that gives big richening during accelleration. The F16 you have gives weakening at slight accelleration, and at low revs.

2 seconds of Googling - fastroadcars dot co dot uk (can't post URL's until I've posted over 15 times on here!) - has Weber spares/jets/etc.. and a description of what you get with each type of tube.

I'll have to find my Weber book because I made notes in there of what it had over the many years of development, from the very first 1398 bottom end, to it's fully lary 1297 132hp rendition.

Final tip - get it on the rolling road. It'll be a lot cheaper than a blown engine, either because it's too weak and eats the pistons, or too rich and washes the bores/lunches the bearings.

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

Thank you an incredible amount C612DNM, sounds legendary, i am in contact with Anthony at fast road cars, hes who i use for everything, best prices ive seen so far, better than FSE glencoe so hes got my vote, i do totally understand the need for the rolling road sesison and ill definitely do it, im not driving it atm cos its SORNed but im just tinkering about and learning about the carbs, i only run it to tune it, i absolute love them and hope to learn how to tune them properly, ive got a book written by an American which has helped alot, i do know that the F16 emulsions ive got in there are wrong, i took the top plates off the other day and found out what float level im supposed to have (8.5mm for 40 DCOE 28's with brass floats) and found that they were over 1mm out, and when i drove it to test it did seem alot better, instead of totally dying at 3k, it went just a little bit more and with alot of beans, im assuming that the main circuit is engaging better than it was before and hopefully a combination of F11 emulsion tubes and maybe 130 or 140 mains on 180 airs will make the difference i need, ive got 115s and 120s if i need to lean it up a bit for the MOT which will be soon hopefully, thanks for your help mate!

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

might have just had a eureka moment... im thinking, would a 1.4 carb (mechanical) fuel pump be more up to the job than my original 1300 one? its the cam lobe that concerns me, and yes (before) EVERYONE jumps down my throat, i know i need to very soon upgrade to an electric pump!! but i was just wondering if that would help, ie have a higher flow rate than the 1300 one? and whether it would run properly off the cam lobe (bear in mind i am using the old 1300 cam) cheers folks!

[mowgli]

the lobe type pumps are all the same spec. they don't actually flow gigantic amounts of fuel anyway..

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

ahh fair enough, facet it is then....!! cheers mowgli...!

[Stuart]

Lobe pump supplied enough (too much infact) for 150bhp on a 1.6 8V on T40's..... it still needed a regulator in the way!

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

You dont forget do you Stu!! ill defo get a regulator when i finally get some cash, and an electric pump... Skint-ness is slowing progress, and purchasing of new bits and pieces... bad times... :(

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

You dont forget do you Stu!! i iwill get a electric pump and regulator when i finally get some cash together, my unfortunate skint-ness is hindering progress... bad times... ***sorry for the duplicate post, i didnt realise it went onto the next page!!***

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

just read through my notes on my cars and it seems i actually have F11 emulsions after all... im going to check but im pretty sure i wrote it down right... strange why i thought they were F16... bit baffled now, i need to borrow a timing light and set it to, is it 10 degrees advanced? i used to run that kind of setting with my pierburg and it was different (better and more responsive), so now i want to change the idles and the mains instead of doing the emulsions, any suggestions about my thoughts on 130/140 mains on 180 airs? i do have 200 airs if 140 mains make it too rich, and ive been told 45F6 idles would suit it best? any help would be appreciated, sorry for not only not knowing whats going on in my own carbs, but for banging on about it!! cheers folks!

[C612DNM]

The original Sport spec didn't use a regulator. they had a couple of jets in the return lines to restrict the flow.

I used that setup in 1990 and 1991 with my Sport race car, and that's how my brother's car (the ex-Ivan Dutton/Neil Crofts prod-saloon Nova Sport) is still set up. His is an over-bored 1300 (to 1400), and the factory setup has never caused any trouble - we both tried facet pumps with regulators over the years, but went back to the factory mechanical pumps because they were less trouble!!

[Mk1'SR'Dan]

Thank you C612DNM, ive been ABSOLUTELY adamant that it doesn't need a regulator, although im not running a return at the moment, cos no-one could tell me how to go about it, i tried various copper tees that i made myself, with a restriction on the return leg of the tee, but seemed to hunt a bit, it'd be easy to re-instate if i need to, do you know what jet spec your sport's ran? i do have the original information for the sport and was thinking of replicating that but, i dont have the 1297 block, which would alter the original sport jet spec anyway, its the return that intrigues me most though, because i do think it needs one... do you know the size of the restriction jet by any chance? even if it is just a dimension, because ill make the tee myself... also the advance on the timing? any advice? much appreciated... :) thanks again!

[C612DNM]

Sorry for the long delay in the reply.

If I remember correctly, the return in the Irmscher setup is/was nothing more than a plastic T with a jet screwed into the outlet pipe to act as a restrictor.

I have much of the jet information written into either my original Nova Haynes Manual (well and truly dog eared, grubby, and full of hand written notes - like "hold with molegrips and thrash repeatedly with a large hammer")
or in my Weber manual.

As for timing, I always set that up on a dyno or rolling road - I don't think I ever wrote it down because I didn't (and still don't!) own a funky timing light.

Time to dig out my old notes.

They were written on parchment!!!

[C612DNM]

I found my Weber manual. Not happy, lots of notes seem to be missing, but one important bit was in there - the last jetting settings I had in my 1300 race engine: Mains 165, Air Correctors 170, Emulsions F47, Idle Jets 59F21
30mm Ram Pipes. No filters.